General Discussion, Feedback, Suggestions & FAQ

[Engage]

I think the OP on here has some good ideas but seems to be mixing up some of the things that Elves done within Middle Earth. The name of this mod "Rise of Mordor" suggests that events within the mod are supposed to happen prior to the storyline within the Lord of the Rings. Which would mean that the elves werent really leaving to the extent the OP suggests and certainly wouldnt have Arwen leaving to then come back.

[Engage]

Never mind just read that the game is set at the time of the LOTR books.

[Mr.Jox]

Personally I think we can start campaign when Bilbo Baggins found a ring. So we can add RPGs of Bilbo's journey and Fellowship.
Or we can start when Sauron has returnt to Mordor which fits to the mod name.
But these questions too early to disscuss coz we have no campaign map.

[Engage]

I dont know. That seems to be limiting the game somewhat. Not overly realistic to have massive armies sprining up within 18 months. The finding of the Ring and its journey should be an end game event. Making sure it gets to Mordor if you play good. Capturing it before it reaches Mordor for Evil. With massive bonus for race/army that does this.

[zudagos]

@Mr.J do you know if the Wrath of Sparta dlc was the last dlc or not? If so, do you reckon that hopefully CA will release the tools for the campaign map anytime soon, or is it starting to look unlikely? gotta stay optimistic I guess!

[Mr.Jox]

2 more DLCs left if trust Steam DB

[cshewey]

Engage,

If you are talking about my ideas, on the elves i am most certainly not mixed up about what they do. Elves are powerful and immortal creatures who by the TA are leaving in mass to Valinor and have a dwindling population especially on the west side of the MM. That said they still have enough elves (especialy powerful elven lords) to mount a defense of their lands. Arwen at least in the books does not leave and come back to anywhere except for Minas Tirith to marry Aragorn you are thinking of Glorfindel who rescues Frodo, if thats the even you are thinking of. If not that whatever.

On another note Elves draw strenghth from their power rather then their numbers. I would put forth a guess that a Noldorian elf would expect to be worth about 30 or so orcs in battle as a conservative estimate this is based of when Haldir (a sindarin elf less powerful then the noldor) told the fellowship "the three of us would not venture to take on 100". So we know tolkien saw a Sindarian elf as less then 33 orcs. However we can also see that in Helms Deep Legolas (also a Sindar) kills 53 orcs at the battle, but he is of royal blood and perhaps more powerful then Haldir because of that. However the Nazgul see Glorfindel (a noldorian lord) as a threat even when outnumbered 9-1 by Nazgul. So i am not sure we can get an accurate judgement of the noldorian strength but it is extreamly powerful. I think that Elves tend to be downplayed very much in the media (especialy like PJ's Helm Deep) if there were honestly 200 Sindar elves at helms deep arreyed in full battle armour they could have easily held off the thousands of Uruks especially when supported by Rohan, they most certainly would not have been slaughtered as the movie portrayed. At worst they would have been surounded and slowly killed off 1 by 1 but not without inflicting MASSIVE casualties on the Uruks. But realisticly especialy under the leadership of Aragorn and the sword of Anduril so much terror would have been inflicted on the orcs they would have been slaughtered and routed. I doubt the Uruks would have even attacked the walls with elves manning it they would see them as they are in the wraith world (terrible and powerful) and would most likely have fled in those late days.

So my numberical estimate would go something along these lines:

1, Noldorian lord (Ie Elledan or Elrohir) = 70+ orcs depending upon the person
2, Average Noldorian Elf (IE Gildor) = 30 orcs in battle
3, Sindarian lord (Ie Legolas) = 40-60 orcs in battle
4, Sindarian Elf (Ie Haldir) = 20-30 orcs
5, Silivan Elf (Ie Tauriel (while not actualy in the books but for alck of an example)) =10-15 orcs
6, So you average unit of noldorian elves should be worth i would say around 4 units of orcs. If you have 50 Eldar swordsmen and a 300 unit of orcs thats 6-1 so 4 units would give you 24-1 right around my estimate of 30 ( would say 5 units if we are talking about the plate armoured eldar swordmen vs something like "orc raiders" and they are fighting at the front and not being surrounded). The cost of those units would of course equilize this as well as the fact the elves are so outmumbered literaly each casualty you take is a sore less to you defenceability. As the orcs all i need to do is wittle down the elven defence literaly elf by elf until i can just raise a massive army and sweep over the few elves that remain.

Note these are your average orc not Uruks or Uruk-High, but still stronger then goblins.
Does anyone have any info to back numbers besides these? I think this is the best speculation i can make based on my knowledge i would be eager to see what other think.

[Nuellafürst]

as this thread is called "other suggestions", ill be so greedy to throw one in: As i guess that you are going to include one or more Goblin factions at some point later in your progress , basically what the OOTMM of Third Age were, i thought that, if possible, it would be a quite unique feature for them if their light units could climb city walls.

[Clenvey]

as this thread is called "other suggestions", ill be so greedy to throw one in: As i guess that you are going to include one or more Goblin factions at some point later in your progress , basically what the OOTMM of Third Age were, i thought that, if possible, it would be a quite unique feature for them if their light units could climb city walls.

Yes of course. We will do it right after the implementation of the fell beasts.^^

Sorry, but this is impossible, because we have to modify the engine to do it which is forbidden. But maybe there is a way to enable it by using the animations from Shogun 2 and activating it in the db-tables. It is the same engine so the code could be still there, but I doubt it.

[Nuellafürst]

too bad :/ fell beasts woudl have been awesome^^

a question btw: do you plan to make the trolls Infantry or Cavalry?

[Mr.Jox]

We are at the moment wokring on creating units, not their implementation(but we have some already ingame and even finished). We still disscuss height and width proportions for the dwarves and dunedain. If you can suggest us and give facts why we should make race taller or shorter it'll be very appreciated and of course used in mod.
No skeleton changes for elves. They will be the same as humans.
So next we need:
Orcs, dunedain, dwarves, trolls, ents(?), Uruk-hai(i suppose equal to humans).

[Ohzzy]

I think dunedain should be the same as humans in thier height and width

[LiberalsSuckit]

Engage,

If you are talking about my ideas, on the elves i am most certainly not mixed up about what they do. Elves are powerful and immortal creatures who by the TA are leaving in mass to Valinor and have a dwindling population especially on the west side of the MM. That said they still have enough elves (especialy powerful elven lords) to mount a defense of their lands. Arwen at least in the books does not leave and come back to anywhere except for Minas Tirith to marry Aragorn you are thinking of Glorfindel who rescues Frodo, if thats the even you are thinking of. If not that whatever.

On another note Elves draw strenghth from their power rather then their numbers. I would put forth a guess that a Noldorian elf would expect to be worth about 30 or so orcs in battle as a conservative estimate this is based of when Haldir (a sindarin elf less powerful then the noldor) told the fellowship "the three of us would not venture to take on 100". So we know tolkien saw a Sindarian elf as less then 33 orcs. However we can also see that in Helms Deep Legolas (also a Sindar) kills 53 orcs at the battle, but he is of royal blood and perhaps more powerful then Haldir because of that. However the Nazgul see Glorfindel (a noldorian lord) as a threat even when outnumbered 9-1 by Nazgul. So i am not sure we can get an accurate judgement of the noldorian strength but it is extreamly powerful. I think that Elves tend to be downplayed very much in the media (especialy like PJ's Helm Deep) if there were honestly 200 Sindar elves at helms deep arreyed in full battle armour they could have easily held off the thousands of Uruks especially when supported by Rohan, they most certainly would not have been slaughtered as the movie portrayed. At worst they would have been surounded and slowly killed off 1 by 1 but not without inflicting MASSIVE casualties on the Uruks. But realisticly especialy under the leadership of Aragorn and the sword of Anduril so much terror would have been inflicted on the orcs they would have been slaughtered and routed. I doubt the Uruks would have even attacked the walls with elves manning it they would see them as they are in the wraith world (terrible and powerful) and would most likely have fled in those late days.

So my numberical estimate would go something along these lines:

1, Noldorian lord (Ie Elledan or Elrohir) = 70+ orcs depending upon the person
2, Average Noldorian Elf (IE Gildor) = 30 orcs in battle
3, Sindarian lord (Ie Legolas) = 40-60 orcs in battle
4, Sindarian Elf (Ie Haldir) = 20-30 orcs
5, Silivan Elf (Ie Tauriel (while not actualy in the books but for alck of an example)) =10-15 orcs
6, So you average unit of noldorian elves should be worth i would say around 4 units of orcs. If you have 50 Eldar swordsmen and a 300 unit of orcs thats 6-1 so 4 units would give you 24-1 right around my estimate of 30 ( would say 5 units if we are talking about the plate armoured eldar swordmen vs something like "orc raiders" and they are fighting at the front and not being surrounded). The cost of those units would of course equilize this as well as the fact the elves are so outmumbered literaly each casualty you take is a sore less to you defenceability. As the orcs all i need to do is wittle down the elven defence literaly elf by elf until i can just raise a massive army and sweep over the few elves that remain.

Note these are your average orc not Uruks or Uruk-High, but still stronger then goblins.
Does anyone have any info to back numbers besides these? I think this is the best speculation i can make based on my knowledge i would be eager to see what other think.

You have to remember that the elves have the same human limitations as everyone else except for their lifespan. The reason elves are so good at war is because most have been in the army for hundreds of years, minimum. That is an insane amount of training and experience. That said, they're in no way superheroes. 200 in the open field can't win against 10,000. That's why in a fortification they fared much better, but fighting in the breach they were simply overwhelmed after an entire night.

[cshewey]

You have to remember that the elves have the same human limitations as everyone else except for their lifespan. The reason elves are so good at war is because most have been in the army for hundreds of years, minimum. That is an insane amount of training and experience. That said, they're in no way superheroes. 200 in the open field can't win against 10,000. That's why in a fortification they fared much better, but fighting in the breach they were simply overwhelmed after an entire night.

Actually you are wrong, elves do have super human powers. They don't need to to sleep (as evidenced by legolas and elrond in the books) They have vastly superior vision and reflexes, and they poses magical powers. Elves are not just humans with pointy ears, they are terrible lords, the firstborn, immortal and powerful. You have been brainwashed by PJ about the elves.

And i didnt say 200 would win against 10k(unless you are talking noldorian lords in which case i would say that yes 200 Elronds would kill 10k orcs) based on my calculations it would take approximately 330 noldorian elves in full battle armor in order to defeat that many orcs. I will say they would win probably not because they killed all 10k the orcs would flee after loosing 3k or so.

If you study real history you will know that with strong walls and plenty of provisions even a force in the low hundreds can hold off tens of thousands from behind walls. This is why they invented gun powder or in most cases just starved out well intrenched defenders.

For Dwarves there are also similar variations, dwarves are not just short humans. They are much stouter and stronger then men, and much much more stubborn.

Men however have an interesting spirit that others dont have which makes them unique and perhaps is their greatest strength. Men desire glory and power and so have a passion for war (especialy rohan) which leads them to great courage and deeds that perhaps even the noldor could not muster.

Orcs are generaly cruel and harsh and often are whipped and forced into battle. They much prefer raids and murder to open field war especialy in day light. However they also seem to be inherently cowards, they will flee if they think they can prolong their lives. But there are few things more deadly then a swarm of angry orcs rushing out of holes at you. This is the strength of orcs, if they can disorganize and surround you then you have little chance of winning. But if you hold your ground and fight back, they will generally flee when their prey turns to bite.

I hope that covers a generality of the strengths of the races for everyone

[Mr.Jox]

You must understand, we can't make elves so power because of engine limitations and of course because of game balance. This way elves will be over overpowered. We will make them of course better warriors than orcs and some men(but I never heard elves have more physical power than men). We can't make their supersensetive ears or immortal life or supervision(except strat map and not sure). So what will give them power in game? Their expirience in battles, their sub-race, their skills, tactic(formation?) and armour.

[cshewey]

You must understand, we can't make elves so power because of engine limitations and of course because of game balance. This way elves will be over overpowered. We will make them of course better warriors than orcs and some men(but I never heard elves have more physical power than men). We can't make their supersensetive ears or immortal life or supervision(except strat map and not sure). So what will give them power in game? Their expirience in battles, their sub-race, their skills, tactic(formation?) and armour.

Mr. J,

I am no modder, nor is this my mod however if i may comment i think there is much more that can be done to accomadate elvish supremicy and game balace. Here are my recommendations:
1, As for super powers- Magic can be put into additional special abilities that should be rather doable. Increased speed and stamina can be made into faster running spead (like the "horse runners" in r2) and a longer time to fatigue. Elf eyes can be addded in by taking out the fog of war for the elves. Increased reflexes and power can be added in as increased melee defence skill. Elves i think may not have been stronger but they certainly are tougher and faster then men.
2, In the TA elves especialy west of the mountains were to few to really field formations and armies as most of them have sailed away long before now. The few times they did field armies they were extreamly powerful forces and few would even withstand them. (IE the downfall of Angmar) However in the TA the elves relied on stealth like the rangers with hit and run tactics and relying on their powerful lords and nobles to carry the day (IE Elrond, Glorfindel, Ciridan). This system of being a guerilla style army is already in place in R2 (Lusitani and other iberian tribes) so to make the elves Mr. J just think magical, powerful, extreamly fast lusitani but incredibly few in numbers and with amazing Armour and archers.

If your average unit of men has 120 men in it just make the elven units around 50, (and orcs at prob 200-250 idk) give them 2-3 hitpoints (silivan/sindar-noldor/eldar) and excellent melee defence skills, as well as 95-100 health. The only way to win as the elves is to conserve your numbers until your population can grow and hope is restored (see my earlier posts).

The elves should start with mainly guerrilla/ranger style units and a few powerful cavalry units. Here is a possible roster i put to gether for each of the elveish factions (High Elves-Galadrhim-Silivan Elves) I think these will be very balanced and doable.

Grey Havens (note these are just general thoughts of units not what id say is the complete roster)

Tier 1, $900-1300 per unit (like normal tier 3 units)
Elven Rangers (Archers that can hide anywhere whose armor is their speed and accuracy) (Loose formation, can hide anywhere quick reload and elf-shot (precision shot) (Bow maybee 20-25 shots and swords, able to hold their own in melee but can be cut down by cavalry and cav charges) I would say their melee skills should be about a legionary cohort level.
Haven Militia (levied swordsmen who bolster the defenses of the Falas) (Sheild wall, and "Fury of the Eldar" (Frenzy) Pretty close to armored legionaries in melee but fight like berzerkers when (frenzy) is activated) You could also do a spear or pike version of this unit.

Tier 2 $1300-1500
Elven Marines (Professional spear-men that also carry javelins, which protect the Haven and it's ships) (Hoplite wall, Square, rapid advance, cavalry counter tactics, and "Fury of the Eldar) Like sheild bearers of Macedon in melee, but with javelins like thureos spears.
Haven Guard (Well armored heavy pike-men which guard the gates and streets of Grey Havens) (Pike Phalanx, "Courage of the undying" (Steady)) Hellenic Royal Guard but with increased sword-melee skills when not in phalanx. They should also fight at legionary level when not in phalanx.

Tier 3, $1500-2100 (These guys pretty much own everyone at this point)
Gaurdians of the Falas (These handpicked elves guard the Lords of Mithlond and protect the inner havens and the white towers) (Two Handed swordsmen) ("Fury of the Eldar" (Frenzy) Wrath of the Firstborn (Headhunt) massive charge bonus and insane armor) Like Thracian Nobles but much, much better.
Cirionath of Mithlond (The chosen Marines of Ciridan himself, ageless, strong and bent upon the destruction of the Dark Lord. ((Hoplite wall, Square, rapid advance, cavalry counter tactics, "Fury of the Eldar" and "Courage of the undying") They are heavy armored elite spear men which also carry longbow and a short supply of ammo (Maybe 10 shots). Essentially they are a mix of Heroes of Sparta and Cretan Archers.
Haven, Master-Rangers (Chosen rangers tasked with defending the forests around the gulf of lune, waylaying enemies long before they reach the Havens) (Loose formation, can hide anywhere quick reload and elf-shot (precision shot, and Cantabatian Circle) Mounted Elite Armored Horse Archers that are more then comfortable in both archery are close quarters. (Praetorian Cavalry mixed with Noble Horse Archers)

Rivendel:

Tier 1:
Elven Rangers (Archers that can hide anywhere whose armor is their speed and accuracy) (Loose formation, can hide anywhere quick reload and elf-shot (precision shot) (Bow maybe 20-25 shots and swords, able to hold their own in melee but can be cut down by cavalry and cav charges) I would say their melee skills should be about a legionary cohort level.
Hidden protectors of Eriador (Bree and the Shire like to believe that they provide their own security, when in truth it is the blood of these elves and the Dunedain that accompany them that secures them from the shadows) (Light Javelin/melee Cavalry) (Cantabarian Circle, can hide anywhere, quick relod, and "Fury of the Eldar" (but instead of frenzy it is the "frenzied charge" ability).

Tier 2:
Warriors of Eregion (These sword wielding elves fled from Eregion after it was lost and now fight of Imladris in hopes of reclaiming their homes) (Short sword/ Shield warriors, Well armored with mail but not quite plate armor, fast and strong able to hold the front line against almost anything. (Sheild wall, and "Fury of the Eldar" (Frenzy)
Noldorian Warriors (The spear guys you see at the beginning of the FOTR) (These professional spea-rmen make up the backbone of the noldorian army) (Hoplite wall, Square, rapid advance, cavalry counter tactics, and "Fury of the Eldar) They also carry longbows and a small supply of arrows.

Tier 3:
Glorfindels Knights (These reincarnated ancient elvish lords are a terrifying power, their very presence inspires hope to the free people and fear in the sevants of evil) (Super heavy shock/melee cavalry) They use lances for charging but switch to sword and shield (possibly stored on their backs like cretan archers?) when in melee. (Wedge formation, "Fury of the Eldar" (charge bonus) and Wrath of the Firstborn (but trample instead of headhunt)
Guards of Imladris (Just like Guardians of the Falas but with slightly better armor)
Lore Masters of Rivendel (These are elves well versed in all magic lore ready to bring it to bear against their foes) They carry no armor and use a short sword when forced into melee) ( Hymn to Elbereth Gilthoniel (Inspire all ally forces, increases melee attack and defense) Hatred of Morgoth (Decreases enemy moral and melee defense, improves ally charge bonus)

I tried to include units that were not in TATW i know some of them are especially in DaC and FRoGs but i wrote how i would change them a bit.
If you want help i would be glad to help with rosters for Wood Elves and Galadrhim but i will let everyone look at these base roster units first. Obviously these are not complete rosters but you can add to them updated units from TATW i just thought i would want to add these ones.

[Mr.Jox]

oks.. some ideas really cool and we can take them when time comes to. It's a suggestion thread so you may write here anything u'd like to see in.

[LiberalsSuckit]

I just finished rereading LOTR and I didn't get the impression that 300 of the Noldor in open battle could kill 10,000. If that were true, Elrond would be hiding out using guerrilla tactics. If that were true, Melkor would have never stood a chance, the Noldor wouldn't have sent for the help of the Valar, and Gondolin would have never fallen, dragons or no. Your descriptions seem a little far fetched. I know that sounds silly talking about a fantasy novel, but Tolkien had a theme of plausibility in his books. Elves are naturally more athletic and have heightened senses. That along with their age makes them incredible fighters, not unrealistic ones. If your opinion were on point, then they would fight like in those ridiculous hobbit movies, flipping around and whatnot and the war would be over in a month. That's just the impression i've gotten from the books.

I pulled this off of the Tolkien Gateway to show sort of where my opinion is:

Besides being considered more beautiful than men, Elves were also generally taller. Their hair color varied; but the basic rules were that the Noldor generally had dark hair (brown or black), the Vanyar golden, and the Teleri silver or dark. Their eyes are usually described as gray. Their most distinguishing characteristic from the Mortal races was the fact that they were invulnerable to age or disease; unless they were killed by sword or sorrow they would live to the end of the world.Their lives were counted to begin at conception rather than birth, and though their minds sharpened much earlier in life than in the race of Men, their bodies grew more slowly. They were considered fully-grown at about a century. They married usually only once in their lives, and their children were often few and far-between.

[zudagos]

I do agree with @cshewey, I don't think it was mean that 300 Noldor could kill 10,000 in battle, rather if all 300 were Noldor lords like Elrond, then it would be possible, but rather using their skill a force of 300 would be able to withstand an attack of 10,000 and inflict substantial damage to the enemy, so that the remainder flee. The Elves are not impossible to defeat obviously but they would in no way be easily defeated against a large army that easily, and of course strong fortifications aid them greatly too, as seen by Lothlorien withstanding many large attacks from Dol Guldur, where it was said that Lothlorien would only fall if Melkor attacked it himself.

[LiberalsSuckit]

I agree with that.