Pistol armed mounted Samurai, the 'Reiters' of the Tokugawa age?

[Diocle]

I've found this pic in a small and fun text by the most honorable Stephen Turnbull, titled 'Samurai, a Handbook for the Young Warrior' (sadly the title is a personal translation from Italian not having found the original English title of the work edited in 2012), in which the author disguised as Umawatari Bogyu (1549-1615), a veteran officer of the Honda clan, and now an important character in the court of Tokugawa, writes the Buke Monogatari, to educate the young Samurai:




The book is absolutely fun and a very interesting reading, but what surprised me mostly it is the small chapter devoted to the use of pistols on horseback, introduced during the first phase of the Tokugawa Shogunate, the honorable Mr. Turnbull describes the weapon as an innovation after Sekigahara, the weapon is a firelock pistol and it's considered a 'honorable weapon' by His Highteness Tokugawa Ieyasu Himself, perfectly suited for the bushi (unlike the musket, the typical weapon of the inferior class of the Ashigaru) and the perfect surrogate of the bow as prestige weapon on the battlefield.

Now, not having read anything else about the subject, and not knowing any example about the use of 'firelock' pistols on the battlefields of the Tokugawa Age, I've opened this thread to ask here if someone can give me any information about these strange and fascinating 'Samurai-Reiters'.

Were the 'firelock pistols' really used on the battlefield?
Do you know if actually these pistol armed Samurai displayed their role on some battlefield of the Tokugawa Age?
What was the quality of the Japanese pistols compared to the European weapons of the XVII century?
Can the mounted use of the pistol be considered as a replacement of the bow?

And then:

If actually the pistol armed Samurai really played a role in the XVII century warfare as the most honorable Mr. Turnbull seems suggesting, is there a hope to see a similar unit in this most honorable and absolutely awesome Mod?

Thanks for the attention and for any help you would like to offer me in my search about the Samurai 'Rieters' during the XVII century.

[Erwin Rommel]

But we already have matchlock cavalry in the guise of Date Masamune and his bodyguard

Well we did view that pistol anim from FOTS and joked about the idea of dual wielding teppo, Date Masamune.........while mounted.

[Diocle]

Thanks ER, I've seen the Masamune's guys at work! They are great!

I've just found a name and a nice pic: "Tanzutsu"? Was this one their name?

[weirdoascensor]

Alson known as Bajozutsu.

l

But we already have matchlock cavalry in the guise of Date Masamune and his bodyguard

Well we did view that pistol anim from FOTS and joked about the idea of dual wielding teppo, Date Masamune.........while mounted.

If you got Sengoku Jidai Unit Pack, Seki enables Mounted Gunners for every clan. The Date did have a small unit of Mounted Gunners with Carbines...well, more like Dragoons since fiddly Matchlocks isn't the easiest firearm to shoot while mounted...Wheelock wasn't coming to Japan in the right times when it probably would become popular.
Samurai did like well-crafted customized personal firearms. I thought I've heard a story, forgot from where sadly, It told that when a Shimazu carried his personal Bow to Sekigahara, he was met with comments, from other Clan Daimyo, on how old-styled he is for not brought his own firearm but a Bow.

...Which make me thinking...If Warring Period rages longer, its not imposssible that Wheelocks could be popularized in Japan - and The age of Wandering Duelists that follows, it may become the age when Duelists strive to become The Fastest Gun, not Blade, of The Land of the Rising Sun...(Sounds like an anime idea at that, make it happen Japan...Sengoku and Edo age history already been exploited tiredlessly anyways...)

[Fujiwara]

@Weirdoascensor, its Yoshihiro you're thinking, I assume.
http://www.aeroartinc.com/shimazu-yo...iring-bow.html

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

btw, that weapon looks to be really long to reload
You absolutly need a pair(same two pairs), and fight as skirmisher: shoot the enemy infantry, and go back to your camp to exchange your pistols for ones reloaded by your attendants..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMS52LZs-dA
In the video, its take about 1min/16sec to reload

[Hazzard]

Well we did view that pistol anim from FOTS and joked about the idea of dual wielding teppo, Date Masamune.........while mounted.

And here I was hoping you'd add this as a submod.

I've no idea if it actually happened in Japan.
I have read several books, such as one called Redcoat which have described any old firearm as a firelock, so I'm guessing they mean a match-lock there.
And how are we certain no wheel-locks reached Japan? The closure wasn't until the 1700s and the Wheel Lock was invented in the 1500s, so hypothetically a Europeon could have brought a wheel-lock with them to Japan when it was first discovered.

[Diocle]

Stephen Turnbull expressly talks of fire-lock and wheel-lock pistols, two or more, used to break the enemy line before the melee, fought using using the katana, it's a tactic very close to that used during the 30 Years War. Turnbull writes that the weapon could be used also for skirmishing tactics as the bow.



Sadly I don't find more references to any historical battle with formed bodies of mounted bushi using the weapon as European Cuirassiers!

- I've found some exemplar of firelock, flintlock Japanese pistols, if you can spend 30.000 $, this is the weapon for you:



Text accompanying the sale:
"Extremely rare Japanese Snaphaunce pistol,This is an incredible piece owing to the fact that the vast majority of Japanese antique firearms are matchlock, the snaphaunce being a less developed form of flintlock. Wheellock, flintlock, and percussionlock technology would be missed by the Japanese when under the reign of Tokogawa, Japan was unified but isolated from foreign trade stunting technological development."



- Anyway on the Web you can easily found other exemplars like these:



In my opinion the weapon was used holding it in one hand, firing it and then, extracting the sword, you assaulted the enemy line in close combat, the cavalry pistol was also in Europe a one shot weapon, ... then close combat in perfect bushi style!

[Erwin Rommel]

Look at this, theres a pistol version, sure theres the Tokugawa mon but maybe its Edo Jidai.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Diocle]

Fantastic pic! Elegant, beautiful design (better than the European exemplars) and dreadful look!

The question is still: Did exist, during the first phase of the Tokugawa age, cavalry units using pistol not only for skirmishing but also as a weapon to make more effective the charge into the enemy line?

I'm still searching but .... I've found nothing! Anyway the Mod is a sort of 'what if' scenery, so, we can think that the flintlock (firelock) pistols, which existed for sure, could have spread in the Samurai cavalry warfare.

I would like being able to ask Mr. Turnbull about the whole matter but we should consider that he is a Professor and Big Boss and I am nobody in Japanese studies! so I cannot write him asking silly questions!

[Hazzard]

Based on what I know of Europe and Japan I would guess it would mostly be adopted as something to shoot while on the charge. I don't think the samurai would be willing to adopt the carrocole, simply because of the massed formation the samurai would have to form and their general role as shock cavalry rather than skirmishers by that point.

[Junaidi83 de Bodemloze]

after i read this, i wonder should i add new unit like matchlock cavalry ashigaru or General bodyguard using pistol, sure its fun idea

[Diocle]

Definitively you should!

A part the jokes, it depends.
From what I've read pistol was introduced during the last phase of the Sengoku age and the Shogunate of Tokugawa Ieyasu, then the increasing closure and isolation of the country prevented the introduction of new models of flintlock pistols from Europe.

The points in my opinion are:

1 - Matchlock pistols did exist in good amount but due the long time of recharge the matchlock pistols were one-shot weapon, they needed a large amount of attendants carrying a lot of them, anyway these first pistols could be used earlier than the firelock type, but I think mainly for skirmishing tactics.

2 - Fire-lock or wheel-lock or even flint-lock pistols did exist for sure, but they should be restricted only to the age after the battle of Sekigahara, belonging to the time of the first Tokugawa Shogunate, IMO if used by whole units, the fire-lock/wheel-lock pistol armed samurai can act exactly like the 'light' cuirassiers of Gustav Adolf during 30YW, that is, they can use the pistols for shock tactics against cavalry or formed infantry: pistol shot at close range and then katana aaaand ........ KILL THEM ALL!

In short my opinion we should have two types of units:

1 - Skirmishing Matchlock-pistol armed samurai, before Sekigahara.

2 - Close combat Wheelock/firelock -pistol armed samurai, after Sekigahara.


But this is only my personal conclusion after the reading of Mr. Turnbull's book and till now I don't have any other evidence about the use of pistols by whole units of mounted samurai. So, I could be wrong .....

[[N2]Kami]

On the side note, I did try to change the ashigaru matchlock to colt, but they are oneshot fire, not repeat fire like in fots.
Not sure what went wrong or I miss something.

[Destin Faroda]

1 - Matchlock pistols did exist in good amount but due the long time of recharge the matchlock pistols were one-shot weapon, they needed a large amount of attendants carrying a lot of them, anyway these first pistols could be used earlier than the firelock type, but I think mainly for skirmishing tactics.

One pistol shot at close range, followed by melee. Interesting idea.

2 - Fire-lock or wheel-lock or even flint-lock pistols did exist for sure, but they should be restricted only to the age after the battle of Sekigahara, belonging to the time of the first Tokugawa Shogunate, IMO if used by whole units, the fire-lock/wheel-lock pistol armed samurai can act exactly like the 'light' cuirassiers of Gustav Adolf during 30YW, that is, they can use the pistols for shock tactics against cavalry or formed infantry: pistol shot at close range and then katana aaaand ........ KILL THEM ALL!

I too have read that Japanese did experiment with flintlocks, but they never were really necessary due to the peaceful Edo period.

On the side note, I did try to change the ashigaru matchlock to colt, but they are oneshot fire, not repeat fire like in fots.
Not sure what went wrong or I miss something.

If you want dual colts, you have to select the right animation and equipment theme. If have managed to add dual revolver Raigekitai to the Boshin campaign.

[[N2]Kami]

No, all is fine, except the fire rate. They have the guns, and shoot both hand. But oneshot fire.
Only that problem

[Erwin Rommel]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kunitomo_Ikkansai

[Diocle]

Few pics about Samurai pistols:








Now let me say .... Holy crap! What's this devilry?



I found these pics of Pinterest and about this 'heavy gun' the guy commented: 'Antique samurai o-zutsu tanegashima (matchlock hand cannon) mounted on a carriage.'




Link: http://www.pinterest.com/nihonnokatc...samurai-era-t/

[Hazzard]

I know nothing about that hand-cannon, but I think we should probably implement them (pistols) like the revolver cavalry. They can fire on the charge if I remember right.