Turning off fatigue?

[Quinn Inuit]

I was doing a little research on how to systematically implement fatigue (based on one of Sere's suggestions), and I discovered that it might be better to leave it turned off:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...?46353-Fatigue

Another common problem that affects the AI is its tendancy to run units around until they are exhausted. There are two possible ways to alleviate this problem: (1) Switch off fatigue, (2) give all units the very_hardy attribute.

The downside of (1) is that it makes combat less realistic in some ways, and allows the player to run his men around without concern for fatigue as well. Still I think it would help the AI a lot more than the player. The downside with (2) is that it doesn't completely solve the problem. Units with the very_hardy attribute will recover from exhaustion more quickly, but if the AI runs his men all over the place and then straight into a fight (which is not unusual) it won't help because they won't get a chance to recover.

Any preferences? It is quite likely that I will switch off fatigue by default in the next release.

We seem to be in a bit of a realism Catch-22 here. Either we turn off fatigue and make battles unrealistic that way, or we leave it on and let the AI muck things up. Or I guess there's a third option where we make everyone very_hardy and leave fatigue on.

What do you all think?

[Sabazios]

I'd go for the third option. I think the AI suffers the most from fatigue in sieges, where it keeps its troops running around pointlessly inside the cities while you are still outside or on the walls. By making them ''very hardy'' the troops that stand still for some time or retreat to the town center at least will recover (a bit).

Maybe a fourth option, but i don't know if this is possible, is to turn of fatigue for some troops like skirmishers and elites and make all other troops very hardy.

[sere]

That's a tough question. All options seem to have considerable disadvantages.

The AI suffers from constantly running its troops over the battlefield in (almost) all situations where it has attacked the player and in battles with reinforcing armies. In siege battles I find it to be somewhat more balanced, since the AI likes to fall back to the central square when the palyer captures the gates and walls in more than one spot. By the time the player reaches the town center (without running ) the AI troops are fairly well rested. (That's at least my experience of siege battles in ExRM.)
So, overall, it's a detrimental enough effect to the AI to require changing.

But I would not like to see fatigue turned off completely. Doing so would not only remove a great amount of realism, it would also blur distinction between units and unit types (including special units from certain regions with harsh climate and terrain). So it would take away from stratification in the combat system ('elite' units - 'mediocre' units - 'weak' units) as well as from the depth, or immersion, of the setting.

Therefore, I'd also not like to just give "very_hardy" to every unit.

Instead, I'd like to increase the general level of stamina in order to preserve stratification, but I'm afraid it is limited in such a way that there is no higher stamina than "very_hardy". So you'd make every unit at least "hardy", while better (or special) units would receive "very_hardy", allowing for at least limited distinction and stratification.

In the end, I think, it's a question of modding policy. Balancing between the player and the AI and creating a more challenging experience fighting the AI on the battlefield stand against an increased level of realism, depth of balancing of units and depth/immersion of the setting.
Personally, I'm in favor of more realism and depth of unit distinction and setting. There are only so many flaws of the vanilla a mod can fix without suffering consequences that, in the end, go against its fundamental premises and are therefore unbearable.

[Quinn Inuit]

I'm afraid I can't turn off fatigue selectively.

I get the sense that there's a consensus against turning it off. I think that's reasonable. The more I think about it, the more uncomfortable that makes me, too. So let's see if we can craft another option.

How does this sound? We go with Sere's idea of making all units "hardy" at minimum. Only the professional soldiers (Tiers 4–5) of civilized factions get "very_hardy" to represent their constant drilling. For barbarians, we represent their tougher existences by giving "very_hardy" to all units Tier 3 and up. For desert units, it's everyone Tier 2 and up, regardless of whether they're civilized.

[Sabazios]

Sounds good and seems like an idea worth trying.

[sere]

Speaking of desert units, how do the "combat bonus in deserts", "... in woods", "... in snow" etc. traits actually work (in general)? Do they effect a unit's stamina?

[Sabazios]

I believe they get an attack bonus

[Quinn Inuit]

Yeah, it's a combat bonus.

OK, fatigue bonuses redone.

[deoved]

There is a Fourth Option (the most realistic one, i think) : disable running for all units exept cavalry. Soldiers did not run on the battlefield exept for charge or pursue.

[Quinn Inuit]

I'm not sure I can do that. I think I could change the speed of running such that it would have no noticeable effect, but I don't think I can disable it altogether. And while I could make it pointless for humans to use, I don't think the AI is smart enough to realize that running isn't helping.