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Thread: A viable early course of action for the High Elves?

  1. #1

    Default A viable early course of action for the High Elves?

    From what I understand from various High Elves guides, it is the best course of action to make Mithlond the capital and expand on the west coast.

    I wonder, would it be a viable strategy to try straight away to take out the neighbouring Dwarves, thereby securing the entire northwest for the High Elves? Or would the Dwarves prove too much of a challenge for the High Elves early on? Will attacking the Dwarves have negative consequences in some way?

    Also, for about how long will the OotMM leave Imladris alone?

  2. #2
    Hugyfew's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: A viable early course of action for the High Elves?

    At first, not being an expert on the High Elves, I decided not to reply. But seeing as no one is helping you, I'll do my best. Not many people visit the other sections of this forum.

    I suggest leaving the Dwarves alone. Your generals will gain dread for fighting the good guys, and the Dwarves might hit you back at some point once they (or you) are done conquering Gundabad's lands. Just expand southwards.

    OotMM will leave Imladris alone for forever if you keep a decent garrison. I have around twelve units (that includes Elrond) there, and the Orcs apparently turned tail after witnessing how strong it was defended. But if you don't recruit any more Elves to defend it, I'd say it'll be invaded before the Barracks Event occurs.

    Keep in mind for now that it's best to post such threads as these to main page of the forum. You will get more replies that way.

  3. #3

    Default Re: A viable early course of action for the High Elves?

    Maybe you could pull it off, or at the very least cripple them, if you used your Lindon spears/general units well. One defeat will set you back quite a lot though, since t
    HE economy in the early game is awful.

    id say it's possible! Could even be worth it because of all the mines that would be made available by conquering the Dwarves. Go for it! The worst that happens is that you'll need to start again.

  4. #4
    Flinn's Avatar His Dudeness of TWC
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    Default Re: A viable early course of action for the High Elves?

    Hi Calypze well met

    I've some wide experience with HE, let me give you few hints

    - attacking dwarves is surely an interesting alternative, though it won't repay you very much in the future; with the strong starting positions the HE have, you don't need to rush the map and so you have time to grow your economy, while opening a war with the Dwarves at the begenning of the campaing will cost you money; furthemore, apart from mines you are not going to get anything very useful from those settlements (being mountains), they will prove pretty useless from military point of view.
    You can, of course, keep it as an alternative for the middle part of the campaign, just do not sign alliance with the dorfs and they will probably backstab you (so you'll save also your reputation)

    - HE proves to be extremely easy on Vanilla TATW, you only have Isengard in the south as a real enemy, as OMM are nothing excellent (unless the Balrog will come) and you have two bridges to defend in the Trollshaw region, so take your time, push your way south and south east towards Enedwaith, Dunland, Isengard and then Moria back to Imladris (you are going to form a sort of orizzontal half-moon shaped kingdom) and you'll win yourself a great economy, then fight off Mordor and Harad and you'll get the real challange

    - fighting against OMM: just ignore any take settlement mission on the mountains and just defend, switch on offence only when you have made your kingdom as suggested above and then take Moria; after this you can keep pushing them out of the mountains, with possibly the help of Silvans and Dwarves

    enjoy
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  5. #5
    Hugyfew's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: A viable early course of action for the High Elves?

    So NOW when I, who barely knows anything about the High Elves, tries to help do the experts roll in.

  6. #6

    Default Re: A viable early course of action for the High Elves?

    Few notes to make campaigh succesful as HE.
    1) Bliz Isengard, ASAP. Loudmouth Saru will spawn helper stacks and Rohan is lousy at dealing with them.
    2) Donate all conquered settlements to Horselords (just keep Isengard and Duneard for yourself - Isengard is sometimes target of Invasion. It's better to deal with them personally than leave it to Rohan AI), in exchange of alliance and military acces. Rohan need those settlements or it won't be strong enough to launch strikes at Mordor. (Gondor looses badly unless Rohan takes off the preassure from Minas Tirith). Plus, u will have acces to retake Edoras if it falls under invasion. Also a side note: if faction has too few settlemts, it wil just sit and do nothing.
    3) Cut into Misty-Gobos land by taking Goblin Fort, and later on their capital. You'll divert their attention from pummeling Silvans
    4) Leave Moria alone. You don't wanna Balrog go wakey too early.
    5) Use spies (lots of) to find Gobos faction leader and heir. Two dedicated stacks, two battles, one turn, presto: Moria is yours, ripe for the taking.
    6) Run some stacks through Eriador lands and fight against Gundabad. Retake and donate settlements to Eriador. Make sure it is strong enough to deal with Gundies, you want ally strong enough to deal with Gundabad, so you can divert attention towards Mordor.
    7) Don't hesitate to capture Silvan settlement (or grab them from Mordor, Silvans usually loose badly), so u have open road towards invasion on the Black Gate.
    8) Screw Mithlond Nobles or Lindon longspears, it takes too much time to cycle them from the frontlines.
    9) Try to force Dwarves, maybe via diplomacy to actually fight Rhun. In most of my games "half-a-meter shovelheads" sit tightly on their butts and squeeze pimples. Rhun goes rampage wit Dale, few turns later fatality for Silvans, and having to fight 3-4 stacks of golden hordes on a daily basis is no fun.
    Do this before barrack event kicks in, and maybe u will have chance to do something before Sauron finds the ring. Oh yea, my games VH/VH.
    Last edited by zax; June 06, 2014 at 03:53 PM.

  7. #7

    Default Re: A viable early course of action for the High Elves?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugyfew View Post
    So NOW when I, who barely knows anything about the High Elves, tries to help do the experts roll in.
    Hey, well I think your comment about generals gaining Dread was a good insight. Combined with what Finn said about the quality of settlements being poor (Thorin's Halls is a town only, and both it and Kibil Dum are mountain terrain), it's pretty clear why most people don't take this option as long as you can secure Neunial and Lunelaith before the dwarves do.

  8. #8

    Default Re: A viable early course of action for the High Elves?

    Quote Originally Posted by Calypze View Post
    From what I understand from various High Elves guides, it is the best course of action to make Mithlond the capital and expand on the west coast.

    I wonder, would it be a viable strategy to try straight away to take out the neighbouring Dwarves, thereby securing the entire northwest for the High Elves? Or would the Dwarves prove too much of a challenge for the High Elves early on? Will attacking the Dwarves have negative consequences in some way?

    Also, for about how long will the OotMM leave Imladris alone?
    Personally, i disagree if it's better to expand down the coast vs using Imladris to expand onto OOTMM territory. My strategy revolves around aggressive maneuvers against the orcs, taking goblin town and the pass right below it (i play MOS latest version, so bear with me a little), allowing me to expand south, and finally take care of the balrog issue.

    Leaving the capital in Imladris can be beneficial in the long run, since missions completed will deliver you units. It's true that corruption decreases and allows for a bigger army, but overall just placing Imladris as capital will let you expand faster and tackle an enemy much faster than fighting dunland and/or isengard.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jean=A=Luc View Post
    What the hell is wrong with you people?

  9. #9

    Default Re: A viable early course of action for the High Elves?

    I just tried the "fight OotMM" strategy as the HE and got my ass handed back to me after fifty turns.

    The first thirty or so turns were hell on my economy as Elves kept leaving Middle Earth every turn.

    I managed to take Goblin Town, and helped Lorien take Moria. Between me, the Loriens, and the Silvans, we reduced the OotMM to one settlement north of Dunland.

    Around turn 45, full stacks of Gundabad Orcs with wargs started coming south. After taking out three full-stacks with no end in sight, I toggled the FOW and realized that Gundabad had managed to take half of Eriador while I was concentrating on the Misty Mountains.

    My biggest mistake was not leaving enough troops at Imladris, I think. Gundabad ignored my outer settlements and just kept sending stack after stack at Goblin Town and Imladris. Since I was using Imladris as a resupply point (it was my only troop-producing settlement in the area), siege after siege reduced the Imladrian garrison to six severely understrength companies facing full-stacks of Goblin Halbediers and Heavies. Imladris was eventually lost, and with it, Elrond and all ability to produce troops in the Misty Mountains.

    Long story short, don't underestimate the Northern Orcs. The little buggers can give you a nasty surprise just when you think you have them on the ropes.

  10. #10

    Default Re: A viable early course of action for the High Elves?

    My first priority is always to slaughter the Dwarves in the west. They're only taking up prime real-estate that could be better used for the resurgent Elven Empire. Elven armies are expensive, and the Dwarven territories have mines.

    Once that's done, I tend to rush south along the coast to Enedwaith, stopping with Suduri, I believe it's called. Then I follow the river eastwards, taking Tharbad and finishing at Ost-in-Edhil.

    My territories now resemble a bowl shape with Eriador in the middle. I complete the circle by taking the northernmost provinces all the way to Carn Dum, then pushing south to Rivendell, fully encircling Eriador.

    At this point, I break off the alliance and call forth the arrow storm. Hobbits and Men alike are butchered, and their skulls are used to pave the roads, when not being used as drinking utensils by Elrond and his sons, respendant in their cloaks of finest dwarf-beard-hair.

    With Eriador consumed, your empire will now be very large and very powerful. It'll also be very rich. Bree or Annuminas make a fine capital. And with several fortresses now at your disposal, you'll find yourself being able to field several dread stacks of Eldar at a time. Just the thing to deal with Mordor, and anything else that might challenge your power.

  11. #11

    Default Re: A viable early course of action for the High Elves?

    Sounds like the Thalmor came to Middle Earth...

  12. #12
    Flinn's Avatar His Dudeness of TWC
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    Default Re: A viable early course of action for the High Elves?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nariac View Post
    At this point, I break off the alliance and call forth the arrow storm. Hobbits and Men alike are butchered, and their skulls are used to pave the roads, when not being used as drinking utensils by Elrond and his sons, respendant in their cloaks of finest dwarf-beard-hair.


    I wonder, how do you manage to break alliances anyway?
    Under the patronage of Finlander, patron of Lugotorix & Lifthrasir & joerock22 & Socrates1984 & Kilo11 & Vladyvid & Dick Cheney & phazer & Jake Armitage & webba 84 of the Imperial House of Hader

  13. #13

    Default Re: A viable early course of action for the High Elves?

    Send a diplomat over and he has an option to break the alliance in the dialogue.

  14. #14
    Flinn's Avatar His Dudeness of TWC
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    Default Re: A viable early course of action for the High Elves?

    what? in TATW Vanilla?

    well I might be utterly wrong, but afaik it is not possible to break the alliances in TATW; the only way is via joining an Invasion.. I'll check anyway, I might be wrong as I haven't played vanilla in a while (but afaicr it's the same in MOS and DAC)



    edit: actually in DAC it is possible to cancel alliances, I've not checked vanilla TATW or MOS yet. I'm confused now, anybody has a sure answer?

    Last edited by Flinn; July 31, 2014 at 04:02 PM.
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  15. #15

    Default Re: A viable early course of action for the High Elves?

    you can cancel alliance with diplomat only
    I choose to die on my feet, rather than live on my knees!

  16. #16

    Default Re: A viable early course of action for the High Elves?

    I have some questions about the HE in the early-ish part of the game (vanilla TATW).

    I hadn't seen Flinn's "Isengard first" strategy above, so I've kept the peace with them so far. Since my best recruitment center by far is Imladris, trying to take out OotMM first seemed more logical. Isengard would be a broad and very poor front - Mithlond can make a cavalry unit every four years, otherwise it's only the basic bow quendi and sword quendi anywhere in that part of the world. Taking Tharbad, Lond Angren, the rest of Enedwaith, and Dunland with such limited resources and long supply lines (and defending Lond Daer, Argond, and possibly Eregion) seems like a tall order...

    Quote Originally Posted by Flinn View Post
    OMM are nothing excellent
    On the other hand, there's one glaring exception to this statement - what the heck are the HE supposed to do about trolls in the early game? I tried asking in the "Best ways to kill trolls" thread but no response so far. I'm up to around turn 50, and Rivendell is several turns away from finishing the barracks allowing Eldarinwe spear/sword units (let alone the Eldarinwe archers or cavalry). So far I've taken Eregion, then trashed the place (except for the Gwaith-i-Mirdain obviously) and left when a half stack with one troll unit came out of the fog of war, and eventually retook it when it remained in rebel hands for a while. In the north I've crushed a full stack of goblin infantry and took Goblin-town, then trashed the place and abandoned it when a full stack with a general, three troll units(!), and two warg units came by. For some reason that stack turned around and then came back again, so I still own Goblin-town for now. If the AI wasn't so fond of aimless marching back and forth, OotMM could probably threaten Rivendell.

    I don't really see what the HE can do about an army like that, until (perhaps) far in the future we can field our own full-stack army with elite units in it. Without trolls, no problem, a modest (6-8 unit) early-game HE army can kill a full stack of goblins. With trolls, the archers can kill two of the 36 individual trolls before they slam into the elven lines, backed up by 3000+ goblins who the archers didn't get to mow down because they were shooting at trolls... (Or leave trolls untouched, shoot lots of goblins, and the same net result).

    Unlike Shiakou's game, Eriador seems to be holding its own against Gundabad and Isengard simultaneously. They're not gaining anything, but they're not losing ground either. Dwarves have taken Mt. Gundabad itself from the east, so that probably helps. Silvans don't seem to be doing a whole lot. They lost the Gladden Fields when those OotMM trolls first showed up, but have retaken it just like I did in Eregion.

    Question about HE buildings - are those Sculptor's Workshops a trap? Scrapping the buildings in Goblin-town gave me enough cash to build one in Mithlond; figured why not, first game with this mod, let's see what happens. Apparently I spent about 7000 gold for the right to spend another 4000 gold for a Historian's Guild that increases pop growth by 0.5%. That seems ... a bit steep, to put it mildly. Are there other benefits that make it worth about five turns worth of net profits?

  17. #17

    Default Re: A viable early course of action for the High Elves?

    Quote Originally Posted by jhhowell View Post
    I have some questions about the HE in the early-ish part of the game (vanilla TATW).

    I hadn't seen Flinn's "Isengard first" strategy above, so I've kept the peace with them so far. Since my best recruitment center by far is Imladris, trying to take out OotMM first seemed more logical. Isengard would be a broad and very poor front - Mithlond can make a cavalry unit every four years, otherwise it's only the basic bow quendi and sword quendi anywhere in that part of the world. Taking Tharbad, Lond Angren, the rest of Enedwaith, and Dunland with such limited resources and long supply lines (and defending Lond Daer, Argond, and possibly Eregion) seems like a tall order...



    On the other hand, there's one glaring exception to this statement - what the heck are the HE supposed to do about trolls in the early game? I tried asking in the "Best ways to kill trolls" thread but no response so far. I'm up to around turn 50, and Rivendell is several turns away from finishing the barracks allowing Eldarinwe spear/sword units (let alone the Eldarinwe archers or cavalry). So far I've taken Eregion, then trashed the place (except for the Gwaith-i-Mirdain obviously) and left when a half stack with one troll unit came out of the fog of war, and eventually retook it when it remained in rebel hands for a while. In the north I've crushed a full stack of goblin infantry and took Goblin-town, then trashed the place and abandoned it when a full stack with a general, three troll units(!), and two warg units came by. For some reason that stack turned around and then came back again, so I still own Goblin-town for now. If the AI wasn't so fond of aimless marching back and forth, OotMM could probably threaten Rivendell.

    I don't really see what the HE can do about an army like that, until (perhaps) far in the future we can field our own full-stack army with elite units in it. Without trolls, no problem, a modest (6-8 unit) early-game HE army can kill a full stack of goblins. With trolls, the archers can kill two of the 36 individual trolls before they slam into the elven lines, backed up by 3000+ goblins who the archers didn't get to mow down because they were shooting at trolls... (Or leave trolls untouched, shoot lots of goblins, and the same net result).

    Unlike Shiakou's game, Eriador seems to be holding its own against Gundabad and Isengard simultaneously. They're not gaining anything, but they're not losing ground either. Dwarves have taken Mt. Gundabad itself from the east, so that probably helps. Silvans don't seem to be doing a whole lot. They lost the Gladden Fields when those OotMM trolls first showed up, but have retaken it just like I did in Eregion.

    Question about HE buildings - are those Sculptor's Workshops a trap? Scrapping the buildings in Goblin-town gave me enough cash to build one in Mithlond; figured why not, first game with this mod, let's see what happens. Apparently I spent about 7000 gold for the right to spend another 4000 gold for a Historian's Guild that increases pop growth by 0.5%. That seems ... a bit steep, to put it mildly. Are there other benefits that make it worth about five turns worth of net profits?

    What you might want to do is, placing you army as far back as possible in the deployment phase and thin out the goblins out with a couple of general cavalry units. Start with the goblin general and there should be hardly any left once the trolls reach your lines. sacrifice a melee unit per troll unit, lindon longspears are the best, pepper the trolls with arrows and charge the troll backs with cavalry until dead.

    It's all about minimizing losses trolls just make it a nasty business.

  18. #18

    Default Re: A viable early course of action for the High Elves?

    Quote Originally Posted by jhhowell View Post
    Question about HE buildings - are those Sculptor's Workshops a trap? Apparently I spent about 7000 gold for the right to spend another 4000 gold for a Historian's Guild that increases pop growth by 0.5%. That seems ... a bit steep, to put it mildly. Are there other benefits that make it worth about five turns worth of net profits?
    The sculptor's workshop is there mainly to provide the AI with substantial bonuses, they are not really worth the effort for a human player unless you are drowning in gold. In some sub mods they provide bigger bonuses. You could mod the building to give additional bonus, it is not really hard to do.

  19. #19

    Default Re: A viable early course of action for the High Elves?

    Quote Originally Posted by jhhowell View Post
    I have some questions about the HE in the early-ish part of the game (vanilla TATW).

    I hadn't seen Flinn's "Isengard first" strategy above, so I've kept the peace with them so far. Since my best recruitment center by far is Imladris, trying to take out OotMM first seemed more logical. Isengard would be a broad and very poor front - Mithlond can make a cavalry unit every four years, otherwise it's only the basic bow quendi and sword quendi anywhere in that part of the world. Taking Tharbad, Lond Angren, the rest of Enedwaith, and Dunland with such limited resources and long supply lines (and defending Lond Daer, Argond, and possibly Eregion) seems like a tall order...



    On the other hand, there's one glaring exception to this statement - what the heck are the HE supposed to do about trolls in the early game? I tried asking in the "Best ways to kill trolls" thread but no response so far. I'm up to around turn 50, and Rivendell is several turns away from finishing the barracks allowing Eldarinwe spear/sword units (let alone the Eldarinwe archers or cavalry). So far I've taken Eregion, then trashed the place (except for the Gwaith-i-Mirdain obviously) and left when a half stack with one troll unit came out of the fog of war, and eventually retook it when it remained in rebel hands for a while. In the north I've crushed a full stack of goblin infantry and took Goblin-town, then trashed the place and abandoned it when a full stack with a general, three troll units(!), and two warg units came by. For some reason that stack turned around and then came back again, so I still own Goblin-town for now. If the AI wasn't so fond of aimless marching back and forth, OotMM could probably threaten Rivendell.

    I don't really see what the HE can do about an army like that, until (perhaps) far in the future we can field our own full-stack army with elite units in it. Without trolls, no problem, a modest (6-8 unit) early-game HE army can kill a full stack of goblins. With trolls, the archers can kill two of the 36 individual trolls before they slam into the elven lines, backed up by 3000+ goblins who the archers didn't get to mow down because they were shooting at trolls... (Or leave trolls untouched, shoot lots of goblins, and the same net result).

    Unlike Shiakou's game, Eriador seems to be holding its own against Gundabad and Isengard simultaneously. They're not gaining anything, but they're not losing ground either. Dwarves have taken Mt. Gundabad itself from the east, so that probably helps. Silvans don't seem to be doing a whole lot. They lost the Gladden Fields when those OotMM trolls first showed up, but have retaken it just like I did in Eregion.

    Question about HE buildings - are those Sculptor's Workshops a trap? Scrapping the buildings in Goblin-town gave me enough cash to build one in Mithlond; figured why not, first game with this mod, let's see what happens. Apparently I spent about 7000 gold for the right to spend another 4000 gold for a Historian's Guild that increases pop growth by 0.5%. That seems ... a bit steep, to put it mildly. Are there other benefits that make it worth about five turns worth of net profits?
    For troll killing with the HE, you need to think ahead. THe AI usually charges the trolls either first, or last. If they charge them first against your line, then you need to focus all of your archer fire against them from the getgo. After thatīs done, send a unit of swordsmen (or sword quendi depending on vanilla or mod) to hold the trolls off while your archers focus on other units. Focussed fire from elven archers can usually take out a full troll group right before they get to you. For more than 1 of them, then you have to get creative.

    Cavalry have a tremendous charge bonus, as you might guess, and against trolls these charge bonuses can outright kill or heavily wound a troll. If you line up a charge with your cavalry against the trolls, then the trolls will be very weakened. After that, you can archer them to death, or send a holding unit to keep it in place.

    What you said, however, the waiting for elite units, is not the best way to kill trolls. even the most basic troll unit can heavily damage an elite unit of yours, and itīs not a good trade. The best way is to continue with the arrow showers until the enemy stops attacking. As you get better archer units, you will also be able to kill trolls much faster with focussed fire.

    Then, there is also the ballista/siege weapon option. A single bolt will kill a multi wound target in 1 shot, always (which if used against a reborn sauron, makes for a less than stellar kill). Personally, for gameplay and canon reasons, i dont use these, and also they slow down your armies marching speed on the map.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jean=A=Luc View Post
    What the hell is wrong with you people?

  20. #20

    Default Re: A viable early course of action for the High Elves?

    Kill them with Bow Quendi; trolls have 7 armor + 24 defense skill, 31 defense total. Defense skill does not apply to archers so only 7 defense vs arrows. When they reach your line, engage them with Sword Quendi, most of their hitpoints will be gone. Best to use cheap melee to fight trolls... trolls have 1 hit kill most of the time, so that extra coin you paid for higher defense stats on Eldar Swords is useless... they get killed in 1 shot anyway. The only exception is hitpoints stat which is why berserkers are so good vs trolls... but this is a high elves thread.

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