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Thread: Traits of succesor chapters

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    Edelfred's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Traits of succesor chapters

    I don't understand how the succesor chapters get their specific traits ?
    Like Flesh Eaters ,Flesh Tearers ,Black Dragons etc
    Do they keep the attributes of founder-legion left ,for example Black Rage and added to their new specifics ?
    The primarch progenitor is like the same as with founder legion .

    Also how it works for splitted newly founded warbands of Chaos Marines .
    Last edited by Edelfred; May 29, 2014 at 05:08 AM.

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    Pielstick's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Traits of succesor chapters

    There's no hard and fast rule as to how the successor chapters derive their characteristics. Sometimes they inherit the customs and traditions of their original chapter, sometimes they are heavily influenced by the ideology of their new leadership. Some have been independent chapters for so long they bear little resemblance to their original legion and have made their own identity and traditions.

    The Blood Angels successors do indeed suffer from the Red Thirst and Black Rage. Ultramarines successors generally follow the Codex Astartes in the manner of their originators, and the Dark Angels successors all share the secret guilt and mission of the Unforgiven.

    However, when you look at the Imperial Fists - the Crimson Fists and Black Templars are actually pretty different from the original legion, and were heavily influenced by those who founded them. The Imperial Fists chapter was led by traditionalists who wanted to keep the spirit of the legion alive. The Crimson Fists were led by those who wanted to embrace the reforms of the Codex Astartes, and the Black Templars were led by guys who were extremely pissed off with the whole Horus Heresy and betraying the Emperor thing.


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    hellheaven1987's Avatar Comes Domesticorum
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    Default Re: Traits of succesor chapters

    Quote Originally Posted by Pielstick View Post
    the Dark Angels successors all share the secret guilt and mission of the Unforgiven.
    Nope, only the Second Founding and selected fews later on.

    Black Dragons' trait is a gene seed mutation, whether it occurred naturally or not is unknown, especially it is known that Mars and Terra often trying to "alternate" gene seeds in order to produce new type of traits (hence 21st Founding has a lot of weird chapters).
    Last edited by hellheaven1987; May 29, 2014 at 08:26 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Markas View Post
    Hellheaven, sometimes you remind me of King Canute trying to hold back the tide, except without the winning parable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    Cameron is midway between Black Rage and .. European Union ..

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    Edelfred's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: Traits of succesor chapters

    Some legions have missed certain implants ,as you well aware of.
    Do succesor chapters follow the pattern of their founder chapter and miss the same implant?
    and another thing-
    -Do heirs to Salamanders ,for example, have the same malfunctioning Melanchromic organ ?

    Inherent attributes of founder legions , as in some assured cases,are attributes inherited from primarch-progenitor
    like Sanguinius flaw .
    Attributes due to upbringing should be called those traits and abilities, when the planets specifics lead to the development of corresponding attributes .
    The cultural traits are obviously those the chapter has decided to keep as a mememento of their mother-world or certain events .

    Those three - inherent attributes ; the living condition of their recruitment world be it the high or low temp high radiation and chaotic influences of warp : the cultural traditions - are the biggest groups , responsible for chapters individual styles .
    But there are also other minor factors ,which can play role in differentiation of marines chapters and bands in that big and warp-ridden universe.
    Last edited by Edelfred; May 29, 2014 at 09:13 AM.

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    hellheaven1987's Avatar Comes Domesticorum
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    Default Re: Traits of succesor chapters

    I remember current fluff suggests Salamanders' Melanchromic organ is not malfunctioned, but yes, successors of Raven Guards do lose two implants like their founding chapter.
    Quote Originally Posted by Markas View Post
    Hellheaven, sometimes you remind me of King Canute trying to hold back the tide, except without the winning parable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    Cameron is midway between Black Rage and .. European Union ..

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    Edelfred's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: Traits of succesor chapters

    i really don't know about
    Founder legions - succesor chapters inheritance of attributes and traits .
    You'd never believe that Ultramarines are related to Mortificators .
    One more thing Iron Warriors warsmith Honsou - he has been made with the use of stolen Imperial gene-seed .
    Iron Warriors don't like such ones amongst them but they have few such .

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    hellheaven1987's Avatar Comes Domesticorum
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    Default Re: Traits of succesor chapters

    In the Horus Heresy series it is suggested the survivors of two "lost" legions may mostly join Ultramarines, which may suggest why many successor chapters claim to be descents of Ultramarines but not seem so (like Iron Snakes).
    Quote Originally Posted by Markas View Post
    Hellheaven, sometimes you remind me of King Canute trying to hold back the tide, except without the winning parable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    Cameron is midway between Black Rage and .. European Union ..

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    Diocle's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Traits of succesor chapters

    Quote Originally Posted by hellheaven1987 View Post
    In the Horus Heresy series it is suggested the survivors of two "lost" legions may mostly join Ultramarines, which may suggest why many successor chapters claim to be descents of Ultramarines but not seem so (like Iron Snakes).
    Finally an explanation by GW on the matter of the lost Legions! (weren't they three?)

    Thanks Hell , here GW suspended the sales of books for its absurd copyright policy, so I should get the books in the local GW shops reading them in English ... but being lazy ....

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    hellheaven1987's Avatar Comes Domesticorum
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    Default Re: Traits of succesor chapters

    It is not uncommon for the survivors of disbanded chapters join other chapters; for example, survivors of Astral Knights are known joined other chapters. Furthermore, some survivors may join other legions too, which may suggest why some chapters (such as Soul Drinkers), despite with clear record of founding history, ultimately proves their gene seed is not from founding chapter.
    Last edited by hellheaven1987; May 29, 2014 at 10:12 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Markas View Post
    Hellheaven, sometimes you remind me of King Canute trying to hold back the tide, except without the winning parable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    Cameron is midway between Black Rage and .. European Union ..

  10. #10
    Ciciro's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Traits of succesor chapters

    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    Finally an explanation by GW on the matter of the lost Legions! (weren't they three?)
    Nope, only 2 of the 20 were lost. Still don't know the reason why.

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    Pielstick's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Traits of succesor chapters

    Weren't the original legions made up of chapters? And were't the Ultramarines the largest legion? (250,000 springs to mind, so that's literally hundreds of chapters).

    Surely there must have been enough variation in the legion era Ultramarine chapters to account for the current variation amongst the successor chapters in M41, even more so given the years that have passed.


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    Default Re: Traits of succesor chapters

    Quote Originally Posted by Ciciro View Post
    Nope, only 2 of the 20 were lost. Still don't know the reason why.
    Yes, you're right, I've taken a look, the point is: If Ultramarines are made also by troops coming from these two forgotten Legions (in my humble opinion, 'lost' is the wrong definition, they weren't lost, simply they existed and then, at some point, they didn't exist anymore ... nobody knows why, nobody knows when, nobody knows where ...) their gene-seed is a composite gene-seed, and it's a composite gene-seed coming from two different gene-seeds nobody knows containing what kind of crap!

    At this point the question is: Actually who are the Ultramarines? What are their genetic characteristics? What is the genetic legacy of those two forgotten Legions? Is the gene-seed of the Ultramarines a pure gene-seed? If those two legions of Astrates vanished, why the records are deleted? What is the horror behind their story? If they rebelled against the Emperor and Holy Terra, can still we consider their gene-seed a safe gene-seed or a pure genetic legacy? Am I the only one here feeling the tremendous potential evilness contained in this awesome truth quoted by Hellheaven?

    Cm'on guys, GW in the Horus series is telling us that the Ultramarines are genetically doubtful! ... This could destroy the whole 40k Universe, don't you see the destructive potential of this story?!?!?!
    What is GW plotting? Is Slaanesh slowly setting up its horrid kingdom in Britain .... maybe at Nottingham?

    Anyway this for sure: Bad days for the Red Scorpions! .... and this is pretty bad, I loved them ....

  13. #13
    hellheaven1987's Avatar Comes Domesticorum
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    Default Re: Traits of succesor chapters

    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    can still we consider their gene-seed a safe gene-seed or a pure genetic legacy?
    Come on, there was a whole Founding using "special gene seeds" which hinted came from Traitor Legions, using two Lost Legions gene seeds is not too unsafe at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    Am I the only one here feeling the tremendous potential evilness contained in this awesome truth quoted by Hellheaven?
    Well, I think the story of Soul Drinkers already prove that having a rebellious mind does not mean you are Chaos; not to mention Soul Drinkers has clear records they were Second Founding from Imperial Fists.
    Quote Originally Posted by Markas View Post
    Hellheaven, sometimes you remind me of King Canute trying to hold back the tide, except without the winning parable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    Cameron is midway between Black Rage and .. European Union ..

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    Edelfred's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: Traits of succesor chapters

    Quote Originally Posted by hellheaven1987 View Post
    Come on, there was a whole Founding using "special gene seeds" which hinted came from Traitor Legions, using two Lost Legions gene seeds is not too unsafe at all.



    Well, I think the story of Soul Drinkers already prove that having a rebellious mind does not mean you are Chaos; not to mention Soul Drinkers has clear records they were Second Founding from Imperial Fists.
    Have you read the last book in their series
    'Phalanx' - i think .It seems they were went astray by Chaos after all . That fellow poet or whatever they revered to was revived and showed up to conspire with Chaos
    though he had different goal in mind - vainglorious it was anywhere betrayal .

    Quote Originally Posted by Pielstick View Post
    Weren't the original legions made up of chapters? And were't the Ultramarines the largest legion? (250,000 springs to mind, so that's literally hundreds of chapters).

    Surely there must have been enough variation in the legion era Ultramarine chapters to account for the current variation amongst the successor chapters in M41, even more so given the years that have passed.
    That's a relative thing to say,at one given moment they had mission to fullfill, though after they forced others to reorganize , though Space Wolfes numbers are above codex and Templars have 6000 SM in chapter.

    I haven't read that book from HH where Alpharius tried to infiltrate Raven Guard secret facilities with gene-seed labs to the end . Corax had recieved non-verbal psychic instruction by E on vital details of SM creation . Alpharius though manages to replace some loyalists chapters SM killed during Isstvan massacre by his marines .Those agents plan to steal secret and make Alpha invincible by creating multitude of their marines .
    Last edited by Edelfred; June 02, 2014 at 06:36 AM.

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    Diocle's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Traits of succesor chapters

    Quote Originally Posted by hellheaven1987 View Post
    Come on, there was a whole Founding using "special gene seeds" which hinted came from Traitor Legions, using two Lost Legions gene seeds is not too unsafe at all.
    Wait, you cannot throw the stone and then hide your hand!

    We are talking of Ultramarines! GW placed them at the top of the most complete purity! They aren't some weird chapter of later founding, they are the Sons of Guilliman, they are Ultramar, a living example (at least in the minds of the GW's guys) of the perfect Astrates, and now ... GW itself tells us the story they are mestizos!!! Mixed blood coming from two mysterious and highly doubtful Legions! IMO, this is simply astonishing!

    IMO this way to solve the enigma of the 'lost Legions' is idiotic! ... and probably even heretic, yes, heretic!

    Have we to consider the contents of the Horus series as 'Official Canon'?

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    hellheaven1987's Avatar Comes Domesticorum
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    Default Re: Traits of succesor chapters

    The complete purity is Salamanders, which even Horus Heresy series confirms it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Markas View Post
    Hellheaven, sometimes you remind me of King Canute trying to hold back the tide, except without the winning parable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    Cameron is midway between Black Rage and .. European Union ..

  17. #17
    Edelfred's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: Traits of succesor chapters

    Quote Originally Posted by hellheaven1987 View Post
    The complete purity is Salamanders, which even Horus Heresy series confirms it.
    How can that be - some of their organs are malfunctioning ?

  18. #18
    hellheaven1987's Avatar Comes Domesticorum
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    Default Re: Traits of succesor chapters

    Quote Originally Posted by Edelfred View Post
    How can that be - some of their organs are malfunctioning ?
    I already said their organs are not malfunctioning in current fluff; their pure black skin is the proof that their Melanochromic organ is functioning normally (as Noctune is a ing death world with heavy amount of radiation).
    Quote Originally Posted by Markas View Post
    Hellheaven, sometimes you remind me of King Canute trying to hold back the tide, except without the winning parable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    Cameron is midway between Black Rage and .. European Union ..

  19. #19
    Carach's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Traits of succesor chapters

    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    Yes, you're right, I've taken a look, the point is: If Ultramarines are made also by troops coming from these two forgotten Legions (in my humble opinion, 'lost' is the wrong definition, they weren't lost, simply they existed and then, at some point, they didn't exist anymore ... nobody knows why, nobody knows when, nobody knows where ...) their gene-seed is a composite gene-seed, and it's a composite gene-seed coming from two different gene-seeds nobody knows containing what kind of crap!

    At this point the question is: Actually who are the Ultramarines? What are their genetic characteristics? What is the genetic legacy of those two forgotten Legions? Is the gene-seed of the Ultramarines a pure gene-seed? If those two legions of Astrates vanished, why the records are deleted? What is the horror behind their story? If they rebelled against the Emperor and Holy Terra, can still we consider their gene-seed a safe gene-seed or a pure genetic legacy? Am I the only one here feeling the tremendous potential evilness contained in this awesome truth quoted by Hellheaven?

    Cm'on guys, GW in the Horus series is telling us that the Ultramarines are genetically doubtful! ... This could destroy the whole 40k Universe, don't you see the destructive potential of this story?!?!?!
    What is GW plotting? Is Slaanesh slowly setting up its horrid kingdom in Britain .... maybe at Nottingham?

    Anyway this for sure: Bad days for the Red Scorpions! .... and this is pretty bad, I loved them ....
    it was the suggestion of one marine that becomes a traitor, at the pushing of some daemons that are manipulating he (and they) to become traitors.

    so it can be argued that it is potentially untrue.

    also there is no mention of the salamanders being 'pure' in geneseed. There is only mention that Vulkan, and by extension his legion, are the most 'human' of all. That they are most in tune with humanity.

    unless u can find a quote, hellheaven..?

    both of u should know there is rarely a definitive answer on these matters. Would ruin the fluff otherwise.
    Last edited by Carach; June 07, 2014 at 08:59 PM.

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    Diocle's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Traits of succesor chapters

    Quote Originally Posted by Carach
    both of u should know there is rarely a definitive answer on these matters. Would ruin the fluff otherwise.
    Yes master Carach, you are right, it's also the lesson of Tolkien, the epics finds its roots in the untold stories which probably are also in some way unspeakable, if any detail is clear and told the intellectual space of epicness vanishes ....

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