Rome II Total Realism - Beta Feedback and Suggestions

[Alma69]

What you guys think about Rome Total War Classic Combat? Maybe implement it partially? http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfile.../?id=360180271
Specially this sound interesting.
* Weaker units will get pushed backwards as they lose the fight
Units will now backstab/gangup like they would in Rome Total War.

[La Tene]

What you guys think about Rome Total War Classic Combat? Maybe implement it partially? http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfile.../?id=360180271
Specially this sound interesting.
* Weaker units will get pushed backwards as they lose the fight
Units will now backstab/gangup like they would in Rome Total War.

Some interesting features in this but I installed it and was a little disappointed.

* Units in melee will now spread out, and give room for their men to fight
This is already tweaked brilliantly in R2TR

* Cavalry has a much more 'heavy' impact when charging
This would absolutely destroy realism vanilla cavalry charges, although bringing some brilliant looking mechanics to the TW engine, are like rocket projectiles; absolutely unreal. However, I think maybe R2TR pulled a little too far in the other direction, I'd like to see certain heavy cavalry capable of a little more weight on the charge.

The features you mention seem neat but R2TR battles are already tweaked and finely tuned to such high levels, in my opinion, that I cannot really think of many important suggestions...

PS: I suggest you try R2TR at large infantry size IE: 120 men per infantry unit. I think this is the sweet spot for R2TR.

[Alma69]

I said partially. Giving ground is realism best feature that would change some things, making unit clashed more dynamic.

[La Tene]

Fair. Maybe JaM will see this and have a look at the files. I don't usually touch battle mechanics, only the campaign.

* Weaker units will get pushed backwards as they lose the fight
*Units will now backstab/gangup like they would in Rome Total War.

[JaM]

some changes to horse mechanics are overdue, i will look at it in nearest future. (mostly to adjust heavy cavalry a bit)

[Alma69]

After some tests.
Cav seams indeed op, looks like is little too fast, and its taking like forever to take them cohesion penalty for running around. If not speed they could take bigger penalty for running. Now is so low that I even did not notice its exist for a first glance. Its taking effect after like 3 runs across whole battlefield. Cav was not running around just like inf, for not loosing cohesion. In fact even charge it self was at trot speed, only very best cav units could gallop or speed gallop without loosing cohesion.
After some custom battle testing seams like pike wall is really too weak. Any roman legion unit can take even best makedonian phalanx units or silver shields just head on charging.
Pike damage seams too low or gladius in op, or soldiers can penetrate pikes too easily.

[JaM]

good feedback, thanks. Yes, cohesion system needs some updating, especially for cavalry. I'll see what i can do.

anyway for speed of movement, i have removed walking from cavalry because it was not tactically significant. It was only used for adjusting the formation, but hardly ever used for tactical purposes.


Regarding Pikes, it is intentional. Pikes were never good at causing huge casualties actually. With Pike held in both hands you are unable to thrust it with enough of force to penetrate shields and armors, while its quite hard to fix the pike in two hands to deal momentum damage with it (Unless you brace the pike against the ground and use momentum of enemy against him - but thats the way renaisance Pikemen were using pikes...) Yet, i might slightly boost the pike attack output, but not dramatically. Pikes are supposed to be holding the enemy in place, not rolling it down.. my goal was to increase chance to hit, but reduce damage, so instead of killing everything in front of them they would push enemy back.. problem is with high defense units like legionaries, which are very hard to get hit, therefore they pass through... so to adjust that, i will try to increase the chance to hit for pikes a bit higher, yet i might need to reduce damage dealt a bit down in compensation.

[La Tene]

By the way I think the "Losing Cohesion" level should say "Low Cohesion" instead because when Cohesion is returning to the unit it goes from Disordered to "Losing Cohesion" ...

Instead: Disordered -> Low Cohesion

I also like the idea of "Reach" for unit stats. Reach could replace Bonus vs Large maybe....

Ax: Reach: 0 Short Sword: Reach: 0 Long Sword: Reach: 1 Spear: Reach: 3 Long Spear: Reach: 5 Pike Phalanx: Reach: 10

[JaM]

yeah, good idea with that low cohesion.

can you describe that "reach" a bit more? at this point there is no value that could differentiate the weapon reach in game, at least im not aware of it.

[La Tene]

The idea is reach replaces/uses the Bonus vs Large effect so the user looks at the Reach stat and thinks: "longer reach will help my troops against cavalry and elephants" ... without including the lame "Bonus vs" wording. But also units with more reach should all have better defense values also.

Basically every unit would need to be analyzed to see which category their weapon is in: short/longer/longer/longer/very long and then apply the Reach (Bonus vs Large effect) but also add an increase to defense stats based on reach levels (this part could be complicated)

It would be neat if long swords had a slight advantage against axes and short swords. Ax Reach: 0 | Short Sword Reach: 0 | Long Sword Reach: 1. This would give the barbarian long sword units a small advantage against Roman armies who generally carry short swords.

Of course Ax and Short Sword units would naturally have higher attack values but slightly low damage: strong infantry killers but poor defensive abilities. Anyway I'm saying too much - R2TR already has a system.. just an idea.

Simply: Reach is Bonus vs Large but also means the unit gets improved melee defense. Axes and Short Swords (including the gladius) don't get any Reach but their attack values are dangerous.

PS: I'm assuming the Bonus vs Large stat can be reworded in the stats window (I see this in other mods)

Edit: Perhaps I'm totally wrong about axes having lower damage but it seems Short Swords would be lower than Long Swords at least. Anyway, hopefully my main explanation on Reach is clear.

[Alma69]

Regarding Pikes, it is intentional. Pikes were never good at causing huge casualties actually. With Pike held in both hands you are unable to thrust it with enough of force to penetrate shields and armors, while its quite hard to fix the pike in two hands to deal momentum damage with it (Unless you brace the pike against the ground and use momentum of enemy against him - but thats the way renaisance Pikemen were using pikes...) Yet, i might slightly boost the pike attack output, but not dramatically. Pikes are supposed to be holding the enemy in place, not rolling it down.. my goal was to increase chance to hit, but reduce damage, so instead of killing everything in front of them they would push enemy back.. problem is with high defense units like legionaries, which are very hard to get hit, therefore they pass through... so to adjust that, i will try to increase the chance to hit for pikes a bit higher, yet i might need to reduce damage dealt a bit down in compensation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTYuYxmICGo
Here you have very nice movie example 3:00 of pikes.
They was bracing vs cav, but I don`t think they would ever braced pikes vs infantry.
. 'Sarissa' is word which mean 'Unreachable' found somewhare
In Rome 1, I rember pike wall was like this, unreachable. Here they are far too easily penetrated.
Phalanx is supposed to be unbeatable in melee up from front, by anything but other Phalanx. In R2TR this basic tactical assumption of ancient world is not in place.
Something is really wrong Jam if you can head on front charge them by twice cheaper unit and beat them out.
If the penetration thing could be done as in Rome 1, the low damage idea could be working. But not in current state.

[JaM]

but as I said.. thats renaisance use of pikes, not ancient one.. in ancient times, pikes were held in both hands, no pictures show them being braced like this... It is not humanly possible to penetrate shield and armor while holding pike in both hands like that (at the other end of the pike). That is main reason why Pikes are weak in R2TR.. they were not some all killing weapons, their main purpose was to fix enemy in place, but they were unable to cause enough of casualties on their own. In battles like Cynoscephalae, Magnesia or Pydna, Legionaries facing Pikemen took very low casualties. Making them too effective would be unrealistic.

[Ariamanesh]

Hie all
I had some issues with some cavalries in rome ii TW.At first i didn't buy this game and only saw their trailers and from those reviews and trailers i understand that there is two different type of cavalries
1)Melee
2)Shock
I have a question:
Why most of the melee cavalries using spear as their primary weapon?!Do you think a spear armed cavalry like some of heavy Gallic cavalries can really do more damage at melee than a mace armed super heavy cavalry like cataphracts?!
What kind of joke it is?!Do CA really thinks that those spears can do better than heavy axes or maces or swords against infantries?!
Why most of melee cavalries have spear?!
Can you guys do anything about it and mod them and place some really better units as melee cavalries who had the better weapons for such role?!

[Mausolos of Caria]

but as I said.. thats renaisance use of pikes, not ancient one.. in ancient times, pikes were held in both hands, no pictures show them being braced like this... It is not humanly possible to penetrate shield and armor while holding pike in both hands like that (at the other end of the pike). That is main reason why Pikes are weak in R2TR.. they were not some all killing weapons, their main purpose was to fix enemy in place, but they were unable to cause enough of casualties on their own. In battles like Cynoscephalae, Magnesia or Pydna, Legionaries facing Pikemen took very low casualties. Making them too effective would be unrealistic.

To be fair to Alma, low killing rates does not mean that they could be overcome with a frontal attack. At none of the battles you mentioned, or at any others I am aware of, did Roman legionaries actually break through a phalanx with a frontal charge. At Pydna and Kynoskephalai the terrain favoured a more flexible formation like that of the legions and the Macedonian lines broke up because of a lack of discipline, leaving the phalanx's flanks open to attack. And at Magnesia it was the Pergamene cavalry who carried the day, so that eventually, again, the phalangites could be attacked in the flanks and the rear.
Killing rates are obviously hard to confirm, but in most cases it were mounted troops who decided these pitched hellenistic battles, so they would have probably killed most enemies anyway (and that even is the case on TW games, especially because of the rout at the end of each battle).

[Alma69]

but as I said.. thats renaisance use of pikes, not ancient one.. in ancient times, pikes were held in both hands, no pictures show them being braced like this... It is not humanly possible to penetrate shield and armor while holding pike in both hands like that (at the other end of the pike). That is main reason why Pikes are weak in R2TR.. they were not some all killing weapons, their main purpose was to fix enemy in place, but they were unable to cause enough of casualties on their own. In battles like Cynoscephalae, Magnesia or Pydna, Legionaries facing Pikemen took very low casualties. Making them too effective would be unrealistic.

Every pike in any times was 2 handed. One handed pike? Ok seen now some one handed bracing technic in that movie after closer look, well in other movies I seen 2 handed bracing. If you brace you don`t need 2 hands, you are not actively wielding, other hand was actually on sword, to draw it fast if needed, if enemy managed to pass pike lines. But that really not that important, they would not want to brace vs infantry anyway. There was two main way of fighting, one defensive like vs cav and other one aggressive. Renesans Keil was super similar to Ancient Phalanx so to compare those two have lots of sense. In movie we can see Pike&Shot formation thought.
I think you underestimate the power of pike thrust. Pike have like ~5 kilo?, its is 2,5 per arm. Normal one handed sword is 1 kilo. So you think that strong man could not move it strong enough to give it any momentum? The problem was more in aiming, as handling such a long thing was problematic, but that was more then covered by tremendous amount of pikes. 4-5 pikes for every soldier in front line, 4-5 pikes for one enemy sword. Swiss Keils, Landknechts and Makedonian Phalax was rolling everything if was protected from flanking and enemy fire. And that needed combining different formations and superior tactics. That is why not all Pike Formations in history was so successful. After Aleksander death, Makedonian military tactics was too much concentrate on Phalanx, lacking combined arms tactic.

[JaM]

it was not rolling anything actually.. just think about it.. 5kg pike, almost 5m long in both hands and you have to move forward with it.. you can pretty much even forget about thrusting with such weapon... it was very good (intimidating) barrier especially in tight formation, but nothing else...

a lot of people have no idea how unwieldy those sarrisas were.. just look here for some idea:



and imagine how dead would your hands be after just 30 minutes standing like this with a pike lowered... thrusting with it? hardly after few minutes.. you would be happy to be able to hold it in horizontal position.


anyway, as I said, we are planning to do some updates to Pike behavior. they will receive additional accuracy bonus, so they will score a lot more hits than before, even against units protected with large shields, which are right now able to pass through their formation due to shield defense bonus. But damage stays as it is.

[Mausolos of Caria]

To be fair breaks were pretty normal in ancient battles, especially with well equipped soldiers on both sides men would grow tired after 10 mins or so. Of course the Roman triplex acies had the advantage, that the hastati could easily swap backwards and replaced by the principes, but even they needed to retire sometimes, which Adrian Goldsworthy has convincingly shown. But to represent battle breaks seems a bit difficult on TW...

[JaM]

still, phalanx formation used best men, most armored men in the front rows while inexperienced ones were behind. swaping those men to the front would be contraproductive, yet quite hard to do, in such tightly packed formation. With lowered pikes, there would be no free space to move men around which would just complicate things more.

[Alma69]

This sarissa replica is too long, too heavy and too flexible.
I don`t think is accurate replica at all.

Real sarissa was made from two pieces smart screwed together. 5-6 meters. Some archeo says that wood it was made from is not available this days.
This thing is like 9 meters long and looks like it weight more then 10 kilo.

While possibly is true that against heavy armored troops Phalanx would not be so deadly, that can be said about basically any weapon against heavy armor. But then again, Rome formation could be deadly against something that they can`t even reach?
If Pike formation could be taken just from front there would be no point at all in using it, right? Why someone would bother to use so slow and unwildly formation? Yet pikes are coming back from time to time in history as unbeatable in upfront melee, IF used in right conditions and supported by other formations with good tactics.

[JaM]

actually, no, that sarrisa was accurate. it was a presentation of Koryvantes - association of historical studies.. these guys would not blame themselves using historically incorrect replicas. you can find more details on their home page.

In R2TR phalanx is supposed to work as it was in reality - wall of pikes prevents anybody to get close.. that is achieved by high hit chance and lower damage, so if somebody gets hit, he is just pushed back instead of being killed. Where problem is right now, are units with large shields, as those give good defense bonus, which reduces chance to hit for pikes way too much, which ends up with those men getting through pike wall.. As i said, this will be fixed by increasing the hit chance up (right now it is 20, i plan to increase it to 40, which is value that is higher than the best defense value of large shield)