Results 1 to 7 of 7

Thread: A question about the The House of Plantagenet

  1. #1
    isa0005's Avatar Campidoctor
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Australia, Victoria, Melbourne
    Posts
    1,582

    Default A question about the The House of Plantagenet

    So here is my question. What would the first members of House Plantagenet identified themselves as? I am aware the Richard Duke of York, took the name Plantagenet for his family and thus their descendants during the War of the Roses to strengthen his legitimacy to the English Throne, I'm also aware that the name Plantagenet was a nickname taken by Henry II which is potentially related to his personal emblem, which was a "common broom" or planta genista in medieval Latin. So what house would the early "Plantagenets" identified themselves as? Would it have been of the House of Anjou? Would they even have identified themselves with any particular family name? Or would they have just used various cognomens or titles such as "the Lionheart" "Lackland" or Duke of Anjou or Brittany to distinguish themselves from one another.
    Cheers for any help anyone may be able to offer in advanced!
    Regards
    isa0005

  2. #2
    Col. Tartleton's Avatar Comes Limitis
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Cape Ann
    Posts
    13,053

    Default Re: A question about the The House of Plantagenet

    In 1204 Anjou fell to the French. Presumably once the English concluded they would not get it back they stopped using Anjou. The French house of Anjou formed in 1246 so I would think around that time Plantagenet became the norm.

    However I can't be bothered to find contemporary sources to support this.

    I think primarily they'd think of themselves with their lands and titles. I know the Tudors, particularly Elizabeth rarely used their family name because it was a fairly minor Welsh aristocratic family until they rose to power. It didn't have much clout associated with it. Anjou was quite prestigious, but then Comte d'Anjou is one of their titles.
    Last edited by Col. Tartleton; May 10, 2014 at 08:40 AM.
    The Earth is inhabited by billions of idiots.
    The search for intelligent life continues...

  3. #3
    isa0005's Avatar Campidoctor
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Australia, Victoria, Melbourne
    Posts
    1,582

    Default Re: A question about the The House of Plantagenet

    So they would not have identified each other as part of a certain family i.e. House of Anjou, Plantagenet etc...? but rather by the most significant title i.e. Eleanor "of Aquitaine" or William "of Normandy." Was this the case throughout the rest of Europe? What about the major Italian families i.e. the Orsini's, the Midici's or the Borgia's?
    In this case, if I were writing a piece of historical fiction from perhaps the point of view of a particular character of one of these so called "families" how would I go about identifying their family as a collective if I wanted to write with some historical authenticity? i.e. House of ... or Family of...

  4. #4
    Father Jack's Avatar expletive intended
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Ratae Corieltauvorum
    Posts
    5,208

    Default Re: A question about the The House of Plantagenet

    Generally throughout most of the Middle Ages people (the nobility) defined themselves by the land/titles they owned. So the earlier Counts of Anjou, such as Fulk IV (1040s-1109), would have simply been known as Folques, comes de Andigavie or Folques de Andigavie (Fulk, count of Anjou/Fulk of Anjou). During their lifetimes having any other identification simply wasn't necessary, everyone who mattered (the nobility) would know who you were if you called yourself Count/of Anjou. Nicknames were also very common, and some of them were given posthumously while others were used during their life time. But nicknames don't equate with it being an identity for a family/dynasty. We don't call William the Conqueror/Bastard and his immediate descendants the 'Bastards', instead his sons were known as William II Rufus (the Red), Henry I Beauclerc (the good-scholar) and Robert Curthose (short stockings). The term 'Plantagenet' being used to describe a dynasty is from the later Middle Ages and it is also a useful way for historians to lump a group of rulers together.

    edit - if you are writing historical fiction then you don't have to actually bother calling them anything other than their first name, or call them by their first name with whatever title they used. Often they might just commonly be referred to as 'Count Geoffrey' or 'Duke William' or 'King Richard' etc. They didn't use any sort of distinct family name.
    Last edited by Father Jack; May 10, 2014 at 09:23 AM.
    Pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo.

  5. #5
    René Artois's Avatar Dux Limitis
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Wales
    Posts
    18,851

    Default Re: A question about the The House of Plantagenet

    The 'early' Plantagenets, from the point of view of English history, would be the Angevins (aka the Devil's Brood) - Henry II, Richard I, John, and Henry III. Family names, per se, weren't as common at the time, so wouldn't have been very important. The 'of ...' title was basically a way of indicating where they were from, i.e. even a relatively low born man who lived in Paris might be referred to as 'of Paris'.

    Richard, duke of York would have been a Plantagenet, by blood as well as name, being a descendent of Edward III. But as has been said, it's mostly just a useful term for historians to use.
    Bitter is the wind tonight,
    it stirs up the white-waved sea.
    I do not fear the coursing of the Irish sea
    by the fierce warriors of Lothlind.

  6. #6
    isa0005's Avatar Campidoctor
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Australia, Victoria, Melbourne
    Posts
    1,582

    Default Re: A question about the The House of Plantagenet

    Okie doke! Thanks all for the info! For the stories sake I've referred to them as all part of the House of Anjou or the Angevins. While I know it is not necessarily historically correct for the stories sake it will help me to far better distinguish between various families within the story. Again thank you all for the help! Who knows I might even post up what I write here on the TWC and you can all have a look over it! haha

  7. #7
    René Artois's Avatar Dux Limitis
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Wales
    Posts
    18,851

    Default Re: A question about the The House of Plantagenet

    Quote Originally Posted by isa0005 View Post
    Okie doke! Thanks all for the info! For the stories sake I've referred to them as all part of the House of Anjou or the Angevins. While I know it is not necessarily historically correct for the stories sake it will help me to far better distinguish between various families within the story. Again thank you all for the help! Who knows I might even post up what I write here on the TWC and you can all have a look over it! haha
    Best to do it for Henry II, John, Richard and Henry III though. Henry relinquished the family claim to Normandy and Anjou in the mid-13th century, although the Capetians had ruled the areas since John's reign.
    Bitter is the wind tonight,
    it stirs up the white-waved sea.
    I do not fear the coursing of the Irish sea
    by the fierce warriors of Lothlind.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •