Constantine: Rise of Christianity - Future Plans, Previews and Historical Discussions

[AnthoniusII]

I am a bit confused...Will this mod have the needed time frame to reach the apearence of Islam?
Or it will be around the 1st years before and after 311AD?
I am saying this because Roman armies changed radicaly many times after the end of that civil war.
1st Reform made by Constantine himself.
2nd reform made by Justinianus (actually by Belisarius).
3rd reform by Maurice and finally the huge reform made by Heracleius that followed and other HUGE reform after 700AD.

[Dresden]

The mod is 12TPY and starts in 311 AD, so it would probably just include the reforms of Constantine.

[Brivime]

I am a bit confused...Will this mod have the needed time frame to reach the apearence of Islam?
Or it will be around the 1st years before and after 311AD?
I am saying this because Roman armies changed radicaly many times after the end of that civil war.
1st Reform made by Constantine himself.
2nd reform made by Justinianus (actually by Belisarius).
3rd reform by Maurice and finally the huge reform made by Heracleius that followed and other HUGE reform after 700AD.

If you are referring to my previous posts which included information on the early Caliphate armies, they are there because they are some of the earliest sources we have around this timeline. While the Caliphate would be better equipped since they have the wealth now of most of the Arab tribes, most of their armament was looted from the tribes they conquered or produced in Yemen and I am doubtful to structure of the military would have changed that much from 311-657 AD in the case of the Arabs.

I would ask if anyone has any Roman miniatures from the Byzantine-Arab wars, they are about a million times better than the Persian ones as the Persian miniatures have the Arabs decked out in Mongol-esque armor that never was and were done about a thousand years after the wars occurred.

[Temuzu]

Also a few things that would be needed for this roster (from Mount & Blade Warband) would be:

Sarranid Horseman Helmet
Sarranid Mail Coif
Padded Cloth
Nomad Robe (Important)
Studded Leather Coat
Sarranid Mail Shirt (Important)
Sarranid Cavalry Robe (Important)
Rabati (Not really needed but it would be good for unit diversity)
Sarranid Keffiyeh Helmet (Important)

The rest (Once the dignitary porthole is fixed) I can do by retexturing and merging existing R2 entities.

I don't really want to be a bother, if there is an existing tutorial on porting from M&B to R2 that I'm unaware of could some one link it, if not would it be possible some one could show me the way?

Is porting content from commercial releases to free mods legal?

I've a feeling it's not.

[Ahiga]

Is porting content from commercial releases to free mods legal?

I've a feeling it's not.

It's been done by mods for M&B:W (porting from total war stuff), and mods for Total War games porting over M&B:W stuff. There's also been porting of total war material from an older one to a later one. If Taleworlds were to step in their word would be law, but as of right now I have not heard of them doing so.

[Temuzu]

It's been done by mods for M&B:W (porting from total war stuff), and mods for Total War games porting over M&B:W stuff. There's also been porting of total war material from an older one to a later one. If Taleworlds were to step in their word would be law, but as of right now I have not heard of them doing so.

I'm aware, but all I'm saying is, I wouldnt rely too much on content that is essentially stolen. Taleworlds has taken down projects that have used their content in the past.

Regardless, if you're looking for an alternative for WB Native models, the TW forums are full of OSP packs, as you're well aware I'm sure. Hell, contacting some modders who have content you're interested in is entirely possible, perhaps trading content or just them donating it for you. My point being, you dont need to steal, there are better alternatives.

[Ahiga]

Well as of right now all I am using is modder's work from M&B which we have gotten permission (Counterpoint, Imperator of Rome, my friend Kuauik), Total war which we've gotten permission (Fall of Rome - Razor), with the only iffy circumstance being the works of Song of Talesin - I've tried to reach any senior members of that modding team but they've all been gone for upwards of 3 years from the Taleworld forums. And if they respond back and wish for us to remove their material it'll be done post-haste.


Back onto the topic of previews, I should be able to shift the Romans over to Dresden relatively soon. I've managed to go ahead and do enough varieties of shield decor that the four Emperor's legionaries, comitatenses legionaries and Equites Promoti all use shields unique from one another. Auxilias, light cavalry and others will use a shared pool of shields for now - and the regular legionaries may use a mixture of the shared pool + the emperor specific ones.

I'm going to note beforehand that I am not interested in following the Notitia Dignitatum to a T given (A) it's a hundred years past this period (B) there's debate as to its accuracy (C) A legion that was born in or based in one area could end up in another and it would be insufferable to try and figure that out (D) this is coming out of the madness of the 3rd century crises, so I doubt there was neat and tidy order in terms of shield decorum.

The only change I'm willing to consider will be gross anachronisms directly connected to Constantine I (if I gave an emblem of his Auxilia Palatina to Licinius by accident I'll fix that), and the major pre-Constantine I legions with known emblems - like the Herculiani or Ioviani, both of which are relegated only to Maxentius' elite Comitatenses legiones. But if Maxentius has a legionary with a design from a Danubian legion of the Notitia, or Maximinius Daia has one from Gaul you'll just have to accept it or make a submod to fix it.

[AnthoniusII]

Ahiga few issues with shields.
Uniformity was actually in shields and tunics and not in armors in that era.
In order to portay accuratly that feature you have the following options.
Supose that each unit represents a division and not a battalion you can add it shields with the SAME patern with diferent color compinations.
Supose that the unit represents a battalion you could add one shield patern with minor diferent details like:
Diferend scratches/damage
Diferent shield boss (if shield had any)
Shields with/without shield boss..
If by workshop your mod will choose to have "better" versions of the same unit (like M2TW armor upgrades) then each "upgrade" can follow the "batalion's" shield rule but every upgrade will use the same patern with diferent colors:
In this last option upgraded and not upgraded units in the same army will give that visual effect.


If you chose the diferent shields in the same unit remember that the varietions in COLORS-not in patern- must be 3 representing the 3 battalions of each division.

[Ahiga]

Anthonius: I have to admit to being fervently in the camp of skeptics towards uniformality in the past, especially given how challenging achieving that uniformality has been in the industrialized present - from marines at the start of the war in Iraq using hodge-podges of green camo (and the general reputation for the marines always being given the poor man's share of resources), to accounts of British redcoats chasing Xhosa in the South African outback quickly having their spit-and-polish attire worn and torn to shreds with shakos lost and replaced with any odd headgear and dress far from the parade ground ideal. Beyond the most basic sort of "everybody dye your clothing this color or paint your shield that color", I doubt there was any semblance of uniformality.

Specific to this period as I understand it:

-Since at least the 3rd century a Roman commander didn't draft an entire legion/cohortes/alae/ect. into the field army - they took bits and pieces from groups in the form of the Vexillationes. After a campaign these portions cut off from their 'home unit' could be stationed elsewhere - I can try and dig up a reference I recall to a frontier fortress with men of 17 different legions present. I cannot imagine being able to achieve a single, solid design or even color for all the vexillation units in a field army - no unit would be willing to sacrifice -their- emblem in exchange for the emblem of another unit. If the vexillationed units served together with their sub-unit in a larger hundred/thousand man capacity, then it would require we have dozens of dozens of different legionary units that are the exact same statwise, just different in shield decor. I'm not a fan of doing that needless busywork - time spent making a Cornuli and Batavi and Celtae Auxilia Palatina could be spent doing some German or Persian items or working on Roman horse-barding.

-I'm really skeptical that if we take some of the more ornate shield designs (not just basic shapes) to be literal depictions you could have an entire unit of hundreds of men have the exact same shield design. Constantine I is able to get his men to paint the Chi-rho on their shields, but that's a very simple task any man could do. Painting the Herculiani or Ioviani eagle is a different matter altogether (though Maxentius' elite legion does only use the Herculiani and Ioviani designs).

-The increasing predominance of clothing allowances - if Titus the legionary is being given the money to buy his uniform he'll go with the color he likes, the color his buddies tell him to wear, the color that's available, the color that's cheapest. Then when his clothing is dirtied, torn, shredded by travel and fatigues and fighting he might buy/loot whatever clothing is available and go with the cheapest dye possible.

It's one of those issues that we can only speculate on for the most part. For now the units will have a mixture of shields but most are limited to around only 5 or less per unit. You'll be able to easily change it once the mod is updated with the shields - just remove all but 1 entry from the shield item VMD and you're good to go.

[AnthoniusII]

That -what you describe- was mainly durring the Tetrarch war.
Remember though that Constantine reformed the entire army after his finall victory and mainly after the settle of his new capital "Nova Roma".
I recall a large article of a recent pack of historical findings for the armies (limmes/commitances/scholae) and their units (including the dispute of any diferences betwwen Clibanarii/Cataphracti).
I will try to find it and post it in order to help your team if i am allowed too!

[Ahiga]

In retrospect I think you may be correct about the uniformality, though I still would think it'd be an ideal rather than an absolute. Did very brief reading about and while authors tended to suggest against the idea of absolute uniformality they did note period authors talking about it (byzantine and late roman). Like I think you said, they'd try and have uniform colors if not shapes or designs. Though I did read about the Herculiani and Ioviani often being brigaded together - would that often happen? Where you could have 2 or more legions operating in the same sub-unit (maniple/ordo/whatever) - so Titus from Legion A is standing next to Marcus from Legion B and they fight and stand in the formation together.

For now though we'll stick with the current method because it's part of the issue of compromising history for gameplay and feasibility - if I were to make a Herculiani specific regiment and Ioviani specific regiment, then because of the small size of either legion you would be limited to 1, maybe 2 of either. And at the end of the day I'd still have to compromise and have a generic legionary unit for each emperor that would have a single shield emblem. In the future that is a possibility along with other elite legions or soon-to-be-legions (The 3rd century made Parthica one, the Auxilia Palatina in nascent form with Constantine I), but for now it would cause too much trouble and complication.

What seems like a decent end-goal plan to me would be: mixed shields for Auxilia and frontier legions, uniform shields for Elite Legions (and the future Palatina) and Praetorians.

[julianus heraclius]

You don't have to treat the Hercualiani and Ioviani as specific units, though of course that is your choice, but the issue of shield uniformity is important. Having consistency of shield pattern is important for troops to recognise each other on the battlefield and while I accept that there may be some variations in colour to the design, the overall design would be the same within the unit. Having a combination of many shield designs makes units look like either mercenaries of an ad hoc bunch of troops thrown together and certainly don't look like professionals. I would strongly recommend no mixed shields for roman troops be they auxilia or legio.

As for a specific unit for each emperor, I think this is a good idea and something I am going to introduce in IBRO and a mod based around Constantine for RTWI. From memory, the Ioviani where the guards for Diocletian, the Herculiani for Maximian, the Martenses for Galerius and the Solenses for Constantius Chlorus. Joar created the shield patterns for the 4 units which differ from the ND patterns which came into existence during the 4th Century. Happy to give these to you, assuming Joar permits.

[Ahiga]

Puts me in a bit of a bind since I've done like a bajillion different shield patterns! Or more specifically around 46 or so, though a great many are variations of colors on simpler geometric designs I saw in the ND. None are fabricated patterns or colors save for the Praetorians who required it and had no explicit references to what their shield emblems would have been in the late 3rd early 4th century. Hypothetically, ignoring that some of them are partisan (based on Ioviani/Herculiani, Auxilia Palatina, ect.), there'd be around 10 units or so that could use the oval shield (and aren't Praetorians or the like) per Roman faction so it might be possible to divvy it up so that each unit has a single shield pattern. However, I'm still somewhat ambivalent about that, if in part because it seems so dreadfully boring to have a single monotonous line of shields facing you.

And in the context of recognizing eachother on the battlefield, a common emblem for your sub-unit might allow you to distinguish them from the enemy but it wouldn't necessarily allow you to distinguish a friendly sub-unit from the enemy. Of course, also just recall the anecdote about some barbarians being frightened about facing a roman unit until they saw it was a group they had trounced before and were so emboldened by it, so that furthers the argument for some measure of uniformality (assuming it was the shield decor and not a banner or whatever).

As of right now I'm thinking then either color-coding it (predominantly x color shields in a single unit) and/or diminish the variety of shield emblems so it is only 2-3 instead of 4-5 or more. Since I have heard the Herculs and Iovs were often brigaded together, and the same for some Auxilia Palatina. That would convey a sense of uniformality while providing some diversity in appearance. More partial to the latter than the former.

[AnthoniusII]

The problem all mods come across is that they can not have mixed units:
The available solutions are:
Create units and use generic names.
Create cloned units and use diferent names.
Create doubled units and use same names.
But there is an other solution though (the one we followed in TGC mod).
Use historical unit names but chose for each one of them a spesific role.
Example:
Scholae units in TGC timeframe had mainly cavalrymen of two main categories (Defensores=Lancers/Koursores=ranged troops).
If TGC would like to be 100% accurate it would have to create two lancer units and two horsearcher units to name them Scholarii Defensores/Koursores and Hikkanati defensores/koursores.
Their stats would be 99% the same...There for we would have 4 unit spots in simple recolored units...All we could add would be few more shield varietions but this was not our goal.
Our goal was to use accurate names but still avoid cloned units.
There fore we created these:
Hikkanati
Scholarii
Of course "cloning" units can not be avoided espesialy when a mod requires a spesific (ellite/spesial via event unit).
That is my sugestion to your mod too...
Categorise your units and if some of them had mixed troops chose one task/unit name. That way you will still be accurate and you will be able to use as many textures you have created.
One separation -as you allready mentioned- can be the three kind of units/armies:
Limmitanei
Commitances
Scholae Palatinae
That way "similar" units can have diferent shield and tunic paterns.
They may look "same" but they will be diferent.
Anyway...its your mod and desision..We only provide opinions...We will wait for the results!

[Brivime]

Romans from Osprey's Adrianople

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Byzantine from Age of Conquerors

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Brivime]

I'm not sure what type of unit this skirmisher with the patterned robe is called, I knew but I forgot. Make sure you include them though!

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Shapur e Sassani]

Sassanian helms

Sassanian banners and shields

and also the sassanian soldiers

clibinaries sassanian officer : sassanian heavy infantry jianseparan pushtighbans and armored elephant sassanian empire armies ( attackers )

[juanplay]

second infantry man does not seem to be sassanian. but roman, given the chi-roh on his shield, yet i cannot identify the time and location of its sevice

[Shapur e Sassani]

I know what u are trying to say . even I tried to get more info about this unit and I found the main pic



and here is an historical site that proves that this unit is sassanian

http://www.histomin.com/linermi/pgrmidrk.htm

[AnthoniusII]

I hope you guys downloaded my pics pack... small/tiny pack of pictures.
In it this fellow above exists.
The ellite unit he serves has the name: Gyan-avsparpeshmerga (Those that are ready to die)!