Constantine: Rise of Christianity - Future Plans, Previews and Historical Discussions

[Ahiga]

Can't see them as well. I have plans for the Sassanids so I'll be tackling them myself later, but feel free to release a sub-mod if you'd like.

[Brivime]

Do you need help constructing an Arabian roster? I speak fluent dialect Arabic and also have a ways to converting modern Arabic to ancient Nabataen, Sabaen, Himyarite and Qedarite dialects.

I'm also pretty handy with the variant editor, I can't do texture work however. I can make you a Lakhmid roster, Levantine Arab roster and a general Arabian roster (with DB) but you will have to handle getting them in to the proper factions.

[Ahiga]

That'd certainly be terrific if you're interested in helping us out there, though the Arabs will be part of probably the 3rd wave of work (1st being these Romans, 2nd Germans and Sassanids with Armenia probably folded in, 3rd being Steppe nomads and Arabs).

I think the variant work won't be necessary as of right now, just the nomenclature. I'm kind of waiting to see if Dresden does a stat overhaul before I start duplicating his unit entries to flesh out the Romans (and then others).

Down the line (not right now), faction-wise for the Arabs we're looking at something like:

Kindah Confederacy
Lakhmids
Tanukhids
Mascat (Oman)
Himyarites

Then I have trouble determining who was in power in the northern hijaz at this time (hegra and Charmuthas on the map).

I thought about the Banu...I forget which, the larger tribe the Quyraish were in because apparently they held Mecca at this time, but besides Mecca not being on the map I felt with the Kindah apparently being the big dogs in central arabia they needed two provinces.

[Brivime]

That'd certainly be terrific if you're interested in helping us out there, though the Arabs will be part of probably the 3rd wave of work (1st being these Romans, 2nd Germans and Sassanids with Armenia probably folded in, 3rd being Steppe nomads and Arabs).

I think the variant work won't be necessary as of right now, just the nomenclature. I'm kind of waiting to see if Dresden does a stat overhaul before I start duplicating his unit entries to flesh out the Romans (and then others).

Down the line (not right now), faction-wise for the Arabs we're looking at something like:

Kindah Confederacy
Lakhmids
Tanukhids
Mascat (Oman)
Himyarites

Then I have trouble determining who was in power in the northern hijaz at this time (hegra and Charmuthas on the map).

I thought about the Banu...I forget which, the larger tribe the Quyraish were in because apparently they held Mecca at this time, but besides Mecca not being on the map I felt with the Kindah apparently being the big dogs in central arabia they needed two provinces.

Are there any plans to include the Ghassanids as a client state of Rome?

Quraiysh was made out of several large tribes Banu Makhzoum and Banu Hashem were some of the most notable. Hegra you could give to the Banu Ghifar, Yathrib to either Banu Ghatafan, Banu Sulaym or Banu Hawazin.

Bani Hanifa is also a famous tribe from the region but I do not believe they were ever in possession of Yathrib.

For what is currently Adummatu you could put in possession of the Bani Taghlib.

Keep in mind though apart from the Ghatafan most of these are sub-tribes belonging to larger ones.

Anyways, for a possible roster you could have:

Elite/General

Shourat - Nobles
Hourass al Muqadam - Generals Bodyguard
Faras Shaban - Clibanarii, mentioned numerous times to be used in the Lakhmid armies.

Heavy

Mubarizun - Champions (Though the term is coined to the Rashidun army, they were used in pre-islamic armies and would often go off to fight before the battle commenced.) They will be a small heavily armed unit, high stats but very small in number.
Horas - Guards
Faras Musalah - Heavy Cavalry
Jundiyeen - Professional Soldiers (Think of them like legionaries if you will, upper-medium infantry)

Medium

Rajilah - Foot Soldiers, perhaps an upgrade for the Spearmen.
Ramahat - Spearmen
Sayyaf - Swordsmen

Light

Sayyaf Khafif - Light Swordsmen
Tajmuhin - Levies
Faras Khafif - Light Cavalry
Mushat al Abeedin - Slave Warriors
Rukban - Camel Spearmen

Skirmish

Rami Arum - Javelinmen
Rumat - Archers
Rumat al Jamal - Camel Archers

Perhaps some AOR/Faction specific units:

Arabia & Mesopotamia

Rumat Khazrajiyeen - Bani Khazraj archers, very famous and considered the best in Arabia at this time.
Rumat Habshiyeen - Abyssinian Javelinmen
Jund al Ajamiyeen - Mostly non-Arabs, light infantry provided by Iranian rulers over Lakhmid client states.
Shourat Yehudiyeen - Medium infantry summoned from Jewish tribes in Central Arabia.
Khaleeji Baharat - Skirmish/Marine infantry recruited from the Persian Gulf regions and Oman.
Mushat Ashuriyeen - Assyrians upper light infantry, recruitable in Syria, lower Anatolia and Mesopotamia.
Yemeni Sayyafin - Yemeni Swordsmen, lightly armored but with a heavy attack due to the quality of sword making in Yemen during antiquity.

Syria

Mushat Yunaniyeen - Ethnic Greeks from Syria, armed in East Roman fashion.
Jund al Shami - Ethnic Arabs from the Levant, medium infantry with Roman influenced arsenal.
Horas al Qafalat - Hired Caravan guards, some times used to bolster armies. Trade with Syria made Quraiysh, that is why they suffered hard when Muhammad raided their caravans to Damascus and blocked the roads.

I'd like to note, while most people refer to Rumat as archers the word also applies to Javelinmen, javelins were more popular in central Arabia than bows at this point.

If you want Slingers in the roster the name for that is Maqalia with a glottral A (Ayn) at the end.

I'd like to hear any feedback or possible improvements to this. I know you plan to do the Arabs later on but you might as well have some things ready for when the time comes.

EDIT:

I am 100% happy to do all of this (with DB) when the time comes, however I will need some items ported from M&B or at the very least some retextures made to give this roster more character to it.

If you want more Syrian regional mercenaries, I can also give you Syriac [Estrangela] unit names.

They are similar to Arabic given they both descend from Aramaic, Sayyafayya would be swordsmen, Faras becomes Parashayya as you can see in Estrangela the F turns to P however in other Western Syriac dialects the F remains.


EDIT: I am aware the mod is set almost 100 years later, however perhaps due to sparse research material, it would be possible to fashion some of the heavier elements of this roster off of Palmyraean illustrations? There is actually some decent research for the Arabs of this time, you just need to dig deep to find it.

[Shapur e Sassani]

pushtighban




kurdish javelines




kamandaran e shahi

[Brivime]

Great re-textures on the armor, though you should use the Eastern skins instead of the European ones.

[Ahiga]

Great work on the names Brivime and thanks for that, and fantastic Sassanids Spartan Super Hoplite. Personally I like using a mix of the Eastern and European for the Iranians, since we have conflicting references/evidence and in general the Iranian plateau had a large mileu of nationalities even before the arrival of Turkic nomads.

[julianus heraclius]

This was not a definitive equipping of a specific unit but more the first actual test of porting over external contributed models and textures and working on some of my own textures. So ignore the limited shield variety - in the actual release since there won't be color coded uniforms for the Romans (or anyone ideally down the line), there will be a soft segregation of shield decorum. Meaning besides Constantine I having the only Chi Rhos (But other shield decor too), one of his rival Tetrarchs' legionaries might have that funky double headed dragon/eagle thing in only red and yellow while another has it in red and white, and so on. It'll still be godawful messy but that's what civil wars are about.

Plenty of polishing I have to do on the existing armor (the scale needs to be more glossy, the mail less so). Happy with the tunics (my friend Kuauik's patterns on some, stuff I've found myself on others), the helmets (ported over from song of talesin or counterpoint of Taleworlds Forums or Imperator of Rome's generous contributions of the standard spangenhelms with and without cheek guards). Had trouble with the new swords from counterpoint but I should be able to get them in. Also need to fix one of the lods of imperator's cheekless helmet, I messed it up somehow. Think I need to look at an lod I did of counterpoint's too.

Shield is an enlarged, very tiny bit concave (I probably need to make it a bit more so, not imperial scutum level but more noticably concave) auxilia shield. And yeah I know the Chi Rho is facing the wrong way, I'll fix it.

These guys look great. I'm getting quite excited about this mod as the units look very accurate for the time. If you guys need any help from the Invasio Barbarborum team for the mid to late roman period please feel free to ask.

[Shapur e Sassani]

Great re-textures on the armor, though you should use the Eastern skins instead of the European ones.

many thanks Ahiga
as a matter of fact not all of Iranians have brown or black skin !!! I mean most of us are white!!
because of this I am using Macedonian skin for the Sassanian empire
some more units:

Sassanian armored elephant ( behind the poshtighban cavalry )




soghdaian infantry (mace men)

[Brivime]

Could some one retexture one of the afroarabian dignitary portholes so only the headdress is visible? It is crucial for the whole look of this roster.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Ramahat (Note the helmet is a place holder for a Syrian Auxiliary + Arabian Headdress combo)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

You will notice the Iberian hair, braiding hair like this is also done by Bedouin today and was done in the classical ages as well. Before this time period Bedouin were distinguished by shaved foreheads.

What you may not notice however is I have made a new Arab skin variant, which only uses the Arab looking eastern skins. It's a very small change but it makes a big difference in how they look as a unit.

[Ahiga]

Could some one retexture one of the afroarabian dignitary portholes so only the headdress is visible? It is crucial for the whole look of this roster.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Ramahat (Note the helmet is a place holder for a Syrian Auxiliary + Arabian Headdress combo)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

You will notice the Iberian hair, braiding hair like this is also done by Bedouin today and was done in the classical ages as well. Before this time period Bedouin were distinguished by shaved foreheads.

What you may not notice however is I have made a new Arab skin variant, which only uses the Arab looking eastern skins. It's a very small change but it makes a big difference in how they look as a unit.

Helmets are fairly easy to edit since they don't require editing bones, and as far as my inexperienced self can tell it seems that 3dsmax can somewhat auto-rig based on the bones I give it and the location of the model. I solved the issue I had with mail coifs neck parts sticking out, so in theory it should be easy to do that for cloth, too.

I can either take the model portion from that model and create a higher res texture for it, or take a model from M&B:W with due permission that would more or less cover that.

I already have an idea on how to depict the ihram style of dress (worn on Hajj but thought to be one of the pre-islamic styles of dress) ingame. The problem being I have to edit the entire body model to get it to fit, and we will have to see if the rigging will be an issue with that. For now I have to prioritize finishing the Romans.


julianus heraclius: Really appreciate it coming from the kings of depicting late antiquity! Goes without saying my body armor and shield textures would go no where if not for the M&B:W artist's helmets (Song of Taleisn, Imperator of Rome, and Counterpoint), as well as now Razor's fall of rome helmets.


I've been distracted by another game (heresy!) but will be compiling what I've gotten together thus far and sending it to Dresden later today or tomorrow at the latest.

[Brivime]

Helmets are fairly easy to edit since they don't require editing bones, and as far as my inexperienced self can tell it seems that 3dsmax can somewhat auto-rig based on the bones I give it and the location of the model. I solved the issue I had with mail coifs neck parts sticking out, so in theory it should be easy to do that for cloth, too.

I can either take the model portion from that model and create a higher res texture for it, or take a model from M&B:W with due permission that would more or less cover that.

I already have an idea on how to depict the ihram style of dress (worn on Hajj but thought to be one of the pre-islamic styles of dress) ingame. The problem being I have to edit the entire body model to get it to fit, and we will have to see if the rigging will be an issue with that. For now I have to prioritize finishing the Romans.


julianus heraclius: Really appreciate it coming from the kings of depicting late antiquity! Goes without saying my body armor and shield textures would go no where if not for the M&B:W artist's helmets (Song of Taleisn, Imperator of Rome, and Counterpoint), as well as now Razor's fall of rome helmets.


I've been distracted by another game (heresy!) but will be compiling what I've gotten together thus far and sending it to Dresden later today or tomorrow at the latest.

I have managed to edit the porthole however the transparent parts still protrude, black and shiny as shown below.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Any suggestions?

About the Ihram, it is believed by some that the early Khilafas were the days equivalent to an Arab nationalist movements and that they restored the Ihram dress to get back the ancient culture. The Ihram style is believed to have been worn by the first Arabs, who were cultists in the Syrian desert who as I mentioned before shaved their foreheads but also did not drink wine and wore simple clothes.

While most modern Muslims will tell you Islam was a religion for all, in the earlier days regional leaders wanted Islam to be the religion for an Arab elite class, this did not last long however.

What would be nice for medium tier troops would be some studded leather vests, this was used extensively across Arabia as well as a robe worn over chainmail for the heavier troops.

If you can port or edit a model so it looks like a Ghutra that would be great and will make the roster stand out more.

[Visarion]

Edit:

how are these?
Sassanian kurdish javelines



Sassanian heavy spearmen



Sassanian royal spearmen



Soghdian infantry ( mace men )



Armoured sassanian elephants



Sassanian potighbans

canțt see them either... Mozila here...

[Brivime]

For possible faction icons I would suggest a Trefoil (shamrakh) which would represent the three daughters of god in the Arabian pantheon, a Lions head, a falcon and perhaps a coin or a palm tree.

EDIT:

Also a few things that would be needed for this roster (from Mount & Blade Warband) would be:

Sarranid Horseman Helmet
Sarranid Mail Coif
Padded Cloth
Nomad Robe (Important)
Studded Leather Coat
Sarranid Mail Shirt (Important)
Sarranid Cavalry Robe (Important)
Rabati (Not really needed but it would be good for unit diversity)
Sarranid Keffiyeh Helmet (Important)

The rest (Once the dignitary porthole is fixed) I can do by retexturing and merging existing R2 entities.

I don't really want to be a bother, if there is an existing tutorial on porting from M&B to R2 that I'm unaware of could some one link it, if not would it be possible some one could show me the way?

[Razor]

Just hopping by to say hi. Hi.

Anyway, this is looking pretty awesome already! If you have any questions about the Romans feel free to ask them. I hope you find some of my work of use for your mod!

Cheers!

[AnthoniusII]

Once upon a time there was a M2TW mod called Rise of the Chaliphate.
In there there was a great ammount of research in an era that modellers were rare!!
Anyway.
I am sure that with a good research infos and pictures can be found.
My humble contribution is a small/tiny pack of pictures.
Rise of Chaliphate refered to the Heraclius era but you will find few interesting pictures as well for your mod.


This is only an example.
In the pack you will find some Sassanid Noble and ellite troops names such: gyan-avsparpeshmerga that were a unit scimilar to Immortals. The name -if i recall well means those that are ready to sucrifice!
Also you will find a pick with the name Scutatus Primus but later those troops had a greek name of Promachoi (those that fight in the front lines).
Finally a picture Protoslav levy refers to 6th century Slavic tribes that settled in balkans (Antes and Sclaveni).
At first they had almost no descent armor but they used extensivly poisoned arrows and javelins!
A great help for research is also (and as master more accurate) PompeiusMagnus with his mod Age of Darkness II.
I believe that he will help you alot!
He is the best historian for early "medieval" Roman History (5th-8th century).

[Brivime]

Once upon a time there was a M2TW mod called Rise of the Chaliphate.
In there there was a great ammount of research in an era that modellers were rare!!
Anyway.
I am sure that with a good research infos and pictures can be found.
My humble contribution is a small/tiny pack of pictures.
Rise of Chaliphate refered to the Heraclius era but you will find few interesting pictures as well for your mod.


This is only an example.
In the pack you will find some Sassanid Noble and ellite troops names such: gyan-avsparpeshmerga that were a unit scimilar to Immortals. The name -if i recall well means those that are ready to sucrifice!
Also you will find a pick with the name Scutatus Primus but later those troops had a greek name of Promachoi (those that fight in the front lines).
Finally a picture Protoslav levy refers to 6th century Slavic tribes that settled in balkans (Antes and Sclaveni).
At first they had almost no descent armor but they used extensivly poisoned arrows and javelins!
A great help for research is also (and as master more accurate) PompeiusMagnus with his mod Age of Darkness II.
I believe that he will help you alot!
He is the best historian for early "medieval" Roman History (5th-8th century).

I know RotC died a while ago but do you have anymore links or resources to do with it?

[AnthoniusII]

You could use Absinthia's unit packs. They have weapons, textures and unit models that atleast they could be a realy good inspiration mostly when it comes to western europe of that era.
If you use anything of anyone -even as inspiration-it could be nice to mention him/her to a kind of credits when you will post a picture as example!

[Brivime]

What I posted above was the general roster with some AOR units and mercs, this roster can be used for all factions though I plan to give the Lakhmids and Ghassanids their own unique faction units on top of this roster.

I am just doing some more research but it seems that the Lakhmid cavalry was most commonly armed in a similar fashion to the Sassanids while the whole army would have had an array of different weapons from loot or their own manufacturing.

Similarly, the Ghassanids had some Roman influence in their arsenal. Weapons and shields from Yemen were extremely sought after and prized in this time.

Based on my grandfathers works on Arab military history in antiquity and numerous Islamic sources I am thoroughly convinced that leather armor was still used among poorer armies in central Arabia, a leather vest with several metal studs in it is symbolic of the early Islamic armies and by Islamic tradition (I've honestly forgot which historian accounted this, sorry) Yemen (you will notice a trend that Yemen is very involved in armor making.) was revered for it's wicker work shields, swords and leather armor which during the Rashidun Caliphate was supplied to Arab armies.

This of course doesn't mean chainmail and heavier armors were not used, Muhammad used chainmail as did the armies before him, it was common to wear a robe over the chainmail and is a very iconic look for antique and medieval Arab warriors.

Chainmail coifs are also noted in several Islamic traditions, another very common looks is the turban wrapped around the cone helmet, the tail of the turban would protect the soldiers neck from the sun.



This is speculation on my part however I am doubtful that lower tier infantry would have been armed with anything that they didn't buy or loot themselves save for a wicker or hide shield and a spear.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Brivime]

What I posted above was the general roster with some AOR units and mercs, this roster can be used for all factions though I plan to give the Lakhmids and Ghassanids their own unique faction units on top of this roster.

I am just doing some more research but it seems that the Lakhmid cavalry was most commonly armed in a similar fashion to the Sassanids while the whole army would have had an array of different weapons from loot or their own manufacturing.

Similarly, the Ghassanids had some Roman influence in their arsenal. Weapons and shields from Yemen were extremely sought after and prized in this time.

Based on my grandfathers works on Arab military history in antiquity and numerous Islamic sources I am thoroughly convinced that leather armor was still used among poorer armies in central Arabia, a leather vest with several metal studs in it is symbolic of the early Islamic armies and by Islamic tradition (I've honestly forgot which historian accounted this, sorry) Yemen (you will notice a trend that Yemen is very involved in armor making.) was revered for it's wicker work shields, swords and leather armor which during the Rashidun Caliphate was supplied to Arab armies.

This of course doesn't mean chainmail and heavier armors were not used, Muhammad used chainmail as did the armies before him, it was common to wear a robe over the chainmail and is a very iconic look for antique and medieval Arab warriors.

Chainmail coifs are also noted in several Islamic traditions, another very common looks is the turban wrapped around the cone helmet, the tail of the turban would protect the soldiers neck from the sun.



This is speculation on my part however I am doubtful that lower tier infantry would have been armed with anything that they didn't buy or loot themselves save for a wicker or hide shield and a spear.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Persian depictions of early Islamic warriors would not be too far off from the equipment of the Arabs in this timeframe.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

From Osprey's Campaign 031 - Yarmuk 636 AD, the Muslim Conquest of Syria

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

On armament

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Note however some of this may need to be "turned down" so to speak, the Khilafat had so much loot from the Arabian tribes they conquered (not to mention money from Zakaat) that they could afford to distribute such good armor and weapons to everyone who wished to partake in a military expedition, as it says above. So I stand by my statement that a single tribe such as the Lakhmids or even Kindah would not be able to amount to this, though the Lakhmids and Ghassanids would have been showered in honors and armament to act as a buffer zone for the Sassanids and Romans, as well as other Arab tribes that would seek to raid their respective lands. Most of this would go to the nobles and a standing army, not levies.

"Min bidaya" is what we say, "It's imported". The Ghassanids are especially the case for this, I would stress the Roman influence of their arsenal.

I will be giving the Lakhmids horse archers, and I will add archers for the general roster once I can get a better name for them than Rumat.

EDIT: So there is no better name, Javelinmen have been renamed Rami Arum and Rumat will be used for archers. I will get cracking on this roster following your next release, which I am assuming will contain some Roman and Sassanid helmets and armor?