Constantine: Rise of Christianity - Future Plans, Previews and Historical Discussions

[Dresden]

This thread will be a general catch-all for discussing future plans, receiving historical feedback and advice, and presenting any smaller previews we are working on.

Here are some of the larger updates we have planned that we will be working to complete:

Completely redone/updated startpos - The startpos the mod currently uses is very old. It still works well, but it could be a lot better. A newer startpos would allows us to add faction intros, fix a few starting situations, add some new playable factions, have more religion options, and introduce scripting changes if we want. We can also (possibly) have chapter missions as well.

Completely redone models/textures/units/recruitment system - This is a high priority for the mod and Ahiga is already doing some excellent work in this area. We would like to have a much more historically accurate representation of units.

Reworked/redone technology trees - Rather than have the vanilla options, we would have our own trees that reflect the time period.

New playable factions - Christian Armenia is an important faction that is not present currently. Also, the Huns are a DLC faction which will be changed in the future (so you don't have to own the Nomad pack to play them).

Updated CAI and Battle mechanics - To better reflect the tactics and combat of the time period.

Language Support - Or, at the very least, have a pack that will insert the English names for other language versions.

These are just a few of the things we are aiming to do with this mod. While it is currently very playable and stable, this mod could be a truly amazing scenario once it is completed. We hope to have this mod feel like a true expansion to the core game.

[Revan The Great]

Hello Dresden.

I'm a big fan of DeI and naturally I'm also very interested in your work here as well. I played a little bit of your mod earlier, and one of the most interesting things about it is really the opportunity to play a 'late era' Roman game. I'll definitely be looking forward to new models, textures, tech trees, and so forth. One thing I would definitely recommend is a way to differentiate the various Roman factions in terms of unit and texture variations, but perhaps in other ways...technology, general traits, and so on.

I was also wondering if there were any plans to include that magnificent roster of Auxilia units that will be DeI's next patch? Or something similar?

Thanks, and good luck in your endeavor. I'll be following Constantine closely!

[Blasphemer.]

I've just played the mod 2-3 hours, and loved it. Players who want to create & figth against Roman legions instantly should try this. For now, the only thing I noticed building construction times does not matching with 12 TPY. It's the same as 1 TPY. Thank you for this great mod Dresden...

[Dresden]

Build times are actually x2 but yeah, they maybe could be longer. I had to balance it with the fact that some players hate really long build times.

We will be overhauling the Roman roster eventually to have historically accurate recruitment and auxilia for this time period.

[Ahiga]

For historical research:

-I've gotten more than enough resources on the late roman military situation, but I'll welcome corrections to latin terminology. Bear in mind given the transitional nature of this period (pre Constantine I reforms, post Diocletian), there's a lot of ambiguity about how the Late Roman army looked - whether it had the official Limitanei/Comitates division or not, mainly. After scouring research I've followed the opinion that Diocletian (inheriting more ad-hoc, limited time Comitatus formations from the past) established a very small nucleus of the Comitatus, while Constantine I is the one who really codifies the rigid division of Limitanei and Comitatus. All this means for you ingame is that you'll still have the traditional legionary corps, auxilia cohors, Auxilia Alae, Equites Singulares Augusti, Vexillationes (What seems to be the contemporary term for legionary cavalry, and which are ranked above the preceeding units), but have access to a more expensive and longer to recruit core of Comitatus legionaries (representing the 'new legions' formed by Diocletian and successors, like the Heruclani and Iovani), Lanciarii, and similar folk.

-I have the time and interest to research the Sassanids and minor factions, but I'll welcome in particular corrections on proper terminology for the Sassanids, Armenians, Arabs, and later on Germanics.

[Blasphemer.]

Build times are actually x2 but yeah, they maybe could be longer. I had to balance it with the fact that some players hate really long build times.

We will be overhauling the Roman roster eventually to have historically accurate recruitment and auxilia for this time period.

Yeah, you're right most of players hate long build times, tech research etc. But I think it's essential for historical accuracy.
Btw, would be great if you can decrease movement points of armies & fleets and remove forced march stance. Movement points are too much considering a turn is only 1 month, and AI cannot use forced march properly.

[Timhawk]

If that can help, a couple of papers on the late roman army:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/cleu0eo9u7...man%20Army.pdf
The topic of that one is more about unit size, however, I highly recommand reading around p40 to 46, it gives a good overview of the change that affected the roman army from Marcus Aurelius till Constantine.


https://www.dropbox.com/s/l4tv19ugv6...e%20Fulcum.pdf
That one is about that iconic roman close order formation, the fulcum. I'm not sure you can mod formations enough to really use it, but still a good read^^

I may have other relevant litterature laying around, I'll post it whenever I find it if anybody is interested.

[Ahiga]

Appreciate the information, Timhawk. Funnily enough I was reading the first link and realized I had the book form of that dissertation/papers, but since that's checked out from the Uni library it'll be great to have one permanently on hand.

The general conundrum I am/was having is with the ballooning variety of Roman units in the period, yet which were paradoxically less distinct from one another than they could have been in the past. For instance the difference of Auxilia and Legionaries seem almost threadbare compared to the difference of these frontier units and the slowly emerging comitatus style units (at this point only Vexillationes of cavalry, newly formed legionary corps like the Ioviani and Herculiani, Lanciarii, the Praetorians). I was faced with the possibility of having to have redundancies of a bunch of Auxilia, a bunch of frontier legionaries, a bunch of comitatus legionaries, the praetorian cohorts. To say nothing of the variety of cavalry (Cataphracts/Clibanarii, Sagitarii, Scutarii, Promoti, Illyricani, scholae, Equites Singulares Augusti, Vexillationes). The answer in how to depict the late romans in this transitional period has been changing every time I think about it, so this is just the leading concept thus far:

Auxilia Cohors - one sword/thrown projectile unit, one spear/thrown projectile unit. Mix of unarmored and armored, the Pannonian hat and helmets. Not really militia, but your lowest quality infantry of the line.

"Legiones" - one sword/thrown projectile unit, one spear/thrown projectile unit. All armored (all mail? Mostly mail, some scale?), all helmeted. Shield decorum is a complete mix of whatever I can texture, the rationale being frontier legions provided troops in ad-hoc parcels, not as entire units. Hell, I just saw a reference saying one fort had men from 18 legionary units. So you wouldn't have any semblance of uniformality. Comparable to rank and file legionaries in the past.

A single common version of the light infantry javelineers (there's a term for it I need to dig back up. I know it said they were formed ad-hoc from auxilia, legiones, comitatus legions, so they would be unarmored with pannonian hats/helmets, shield, javelins and swords). A single common version of slingers and archers siphoned off from legionary units.

"Legiones Comitatenses" - the newly formed Tetrarchy legiones like the Ioviani/herculiani and others who were specifically designed to serve in the company of the Caesar/Emperor. At this point I don't believe there was any palatine/Comitatenses division, since you had no regional Comitatenses so whatever was the Comitatenses was always around the "palace" of the leader, so they were always Palatine. These would be comparable to your Evocati/veteran cohorts in the past, my thought being whereas other legiones would have parcels of their corps taken on this campaign or that campaign, these proto-Comotatenses are presumably almost always on campaign. Probably only a swordsman version. I have to double check what the deal is with Lanciarii - either they started off as elite light infantry (so think peltasts) and became heavy, or they started off as heavy guard infantry and became elite light. Or more complicatingly and likely true, they could be both!

The Praetorian-style cohorts that the successors inherited from Diocletian after they started to go at eachother's throats. Naturally your elite infantry corps.

Then cavalry wise it'll probably be Auxilia Alae as your cheap medium cavalry of the line, Vexillationes as the catch-all term for field-army legionary cavalry (so your higher end medium/heavy cavalry), Equites Illyricani for European light-medium javelin-cavalry. Equites Singulares Augusti for your guard cavalry corps (Constantine I may have renamed/replaced his with the Scholae, prior to Milvian bridge?). And then your specialist Cataphractii, Clibanarii, and non Indigenes Equites Sagitarii. The latter I want to restrict so you can't pull horse archers out of your ass ad nauseum in the middle of Gaul. They could be a national mercenary unit for all Romans, thereby limited by cost and availability over time. Course in the East you will be able to recruit Indigenes Equites Sagitarii to your heart's content. Likewise with Cataphractii and Clibanarii (going with the artifical assumption of the former being cataphract lancers, the latter cataphract horse archers), they need to have soft caps (in price, recruitment time, AOR, quality). Everything I've read strongly challenges the idea of the roman infantryman losing status as queen of the battlefield - if anything, the cavalry seem to constantly be shameful while the infantry either save the day (strasbourg) or valiantly fight to the death (Adrianople). Not to say Roman cavalry will be bad, just that they shouldn't be your best men.

And then there'll be the Foederati and foreign contingents like the equites Mauri. Odds are for the Foederati it'll be simpler and more rational to have a general "Germanic Foederati" list of units, or at most a West/East division rather than specifically Frankish, Gothic, Allamani, Vandal, Saxon, ect.

[Ahiga]

The ridge helmet depicted on the left is from the mod Song of Talesin from M&B. I've contacted the developers of it to ask for permission, but it seems as though all their team members have been absent for years, upwards of 2011. If they come back and do not approve of our use we'll promptly remove them, but in the mean while I felt if we give full credit to them it would be acceptable in the short term. The right is Counterpoint's (I can't remember the term for it, but it's one they found in Egypt), who has given explicit permission and has graciously shared his swords with us as mentioned too.

[legio_XX]

The ridge helmet depicted on the left is from the mod Song of Talesin from M&B. I've contacted the developers of it to ask for permission, but it seems as though all their team members have been absent for years, upwards of 2011. If they come back and do not approve of our use we'll promptly remove them, but in the mean while I felt if we give full credit to them it would be acceptable in the short term. The right is Counterpoint's (I can't remember the term for it, but it's one they found in Egypt), who has given explicit permission and has graciously shared his swords with us as mentioned too.

wow.... they look great! for the standard roman infantry legions and what not could you a ridge helmet with out the black crest as well?

[Ahiga]

wow.... they look great! for the standard roman infantry legions and what not could you a ridge helmet with out the black crest as well?

Yeah it's easy to do, there'll be ones with and without the crest for all the possible helmets. My friend Kuauik did some late antiquity helmets/shields that he's given permission for us to use, so once he sends them my way I'll work on getting them in - good to have a fallback if Song of Talesin devs respond back and would prefer we not use their stuff.

[Ahiga]

Imperator of Rome has generously shared his spangenhelms originally made for Imperium Graecorum. I think you'll see it more on barbarians, but maybe some of the low end Auxilia for the Romans (course foederati will use it) may have some.

On the left is his helmet on some smelly barbarians (haven't begun to worry about them, so that's just a punic tunic and roman leggings), on the right is Counterpoint's Spangenhelm on my cleverly alpha channeled effort to get more short sleeved models (which I can't, but I can after enough investigation approximate one with alpha channels). Would be one type of scale worn by the Praetorians (particularly associated with scale armor) and in smaller quantities by legionaries.

[Dresden]

Great looking as always Ahiga, truly a blessing have you on this project

I am still working on updating the startpos and some other updates that will tide us over until we can get to the heavy work with all the new models.

[Ahiga]

Thanks Dresden. Would anyone happen to have a model for the Draco? Suddenly hit me that it's fairly emblematic and a sore spot to miss.

& .

I can do the necessary porting in and adjusting of it, and the gloss-map/specular/normal, but I don't have the talent to model it myself.

[Ahiga]

This was not a definitive equipping of a specific unit but more the first actual test of porting over external contributed models and textures and working on some of my own textures. So ignore the limited shield variety - in the actual release since there won't be color coded uniforms for the Romans (or anyone ideally down the line), there will be a soft segregation of shield decorum. Meaning besides Constantine I having the only Chi Rhos (But other shield decor too), one of his rival Tetrarchs' legionaries might have that funky double headed dragon/eagle thing in only red and yellow while another has it in red and white, and so on. It'll still be godawful messy but that's what civil wars are about.

Plenty of polishing I have to do on the existing armor (the scale needs to be more glossy, the mail less so). Happy with the tunics (my friend Kuauik's patterns on some, stuff I've found myself on others), the helmets (ported over from song of talesin or counterpoint of Taleworlds Forums or Imperator of Rome's generous contributions of the standard spangenhelms with and without cheek guards). Had trouble with the new swords from counterpoint but I should be able to get them in. Also need to fix one of the lods of imperator's cheekless helmet, I messed it up somehow. Think I need to look at an lod I did of counterpoint's too.

Shield is an enlarged, very tiny bit concave (I probably need to make it a bit more so, not imperial scutum level but more noticably concave) auxilia shield. And yeah I know the Chi Rho is facing the wrong way, I'll fix it.

[Imperator of Rome]

The eagle is the shield pattern of the Herculianii Seniores and it seems to be incorrect. Basically only Herculianii of the Palatinae should have the shield and only them.



There's also a Jovianni counterpart. Both originate from Diocletian and Maximian.

[Ahiga]

Right, like I mentioned it wasn't a test of equipping a specific unit but rather a test to make sure everything fit together right. Actual units will look different in terms of composition and shield decorum. The Jovianni counterpart - is that the white two headed dragon with a red background? And you say it originated with Maximian, so that means during the civil wars of the Tetrarchy both regiments were squarely with Maximian?

Nevermind, I see the Ioviani up there. Thanks!

[Imperator of Rome]

I think the Herculianii originated with Maximian and Jovianii with Diocletian.

[Ahiga]

How would you solve the issue that we've got 4 Roman successors trying to fight for the throne? Maximian gets the Herculianii, would he get the Jovianii too and the other three emperors would have different emblems for their high end legionaries?

[legio_XX]

How would you solve the issue that we've got 4 Roman successors trying to fight for the throne? Maximian gets the Herculianii, would he get the Jovianii too and the other three emperors would have different emblems for their high end legionaries?

is it possible to make them a regional unit? who ever owns the region can recruit them. setting up a limit of three unit card a piece for the legions. Or just go the creative assembly way and put that patrrens on the elite units and change the color of the shield but same pattern


by the way I had to do a double take on the units as I could not believe my eyes amazing desdins mod is going to be the only mod I play when these units get added..I have been waiting for this... lol hopefully this will be out before I have to start my clinicals