What gave the Chinese the ability to field so much men compared to Romans and Persians?

[Col. Tartleton]

Yet the difference between the last global cooling cycle and previous ones is that in the last few hundred years new agricultural methods of enclosure, mechanization, four-field crop rotation, and selective breeding allowed for much more abundant yields than what was achievable in the High Middle Ages. Technologies that did not exist in medieval Europe but were later adopted in Early Modern Europe can be pinpointed as aiding the overall boom in agricultural yields and populations. Take the seed drill, for instance. Although seed drills had existed in ancient Babylonia and even in Han-dynasty China, it appeared in use in Italy in the 16th century and was perfected by the design of Jethro Tull in 1701, allowing for much more standardized planting.

Even using the most basic methods a medieval or dark age Europe alone could support well over a hundred million people.

Urban centers come and go and populations seem to yo yo. I'm just skeptical that there was a steady creep towards the modern figures.

On an unrelated note I feel a sudden urge to take up pipe smoking.

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

Yeah that's what I meant Hellheaven, thanks for clearing that up.
Cao Cao for instance recruited tens of thousands of Yellow Turban rebels, cause soldiers get fed. As time went on those refugees became more battle hardened, provided they could survive all of the insane engagements of the time period. Really costly battles in this time period, now is this just limited to this period or most Chinese battles? Because supposedly hundreds of thousands died at Changping.

[hellheaven1987]

Really costly battles in this time period

Well, this type of "refugee military" normally relied on foraging heavily and Chinese records mentioned that, hence to maintain the force constant looting and moving are necessary, just like what happened during 30 Years War. Another thing is that it was also first time large number of Chinese refugees migrated towards south (would not be last time however), which the government in south (for example, Kingdom of Wu) transported those manpower to colonize today's southern China, mainly around the Yangtze River (and become richest region in China during Tang to today).

now is this just limited to this period or most Chinese battles?

Nope, Wang Meng's period was the same, and so was the next three hundreds years after Three Kingdoms (the so called Five Barbarian Invasion and then South and North Dynasties). The end of Northern Song Dynasty created a similar situation (but not as bad as Three Kingdoms) and also when the peasant revolt against Mongols at the end of Yun Dynasty (supposely it was the time when my ancestors fleed from northern China to southern China, and the sudden increase of population caused a shortage of jobs so many of them became pirates). The more recent similar case was Taiping Rebellion and Dungan revolt, and of course the Chinese Civil War which CCP was well-known to drive refugee fighting their war.

Because supposedly hundreds of thousands died at Changping.

Changping is a two-years campaign with a fairly large front. Furthermore, Changping is a special case as it was recorded both sides mobilized beyond maximum which was rare even during Warring States. Lastly, most casualty of Changping seems happened only after the campaign, when Bai Qi ordered the execution of all PoWs.

[Roma_Victrix]

Even using the most basic methods a medieval or dark age Europe alone could support well over a hundred million people.

Urban centers come and go and populations seem to yo yo. I'm just skeptical that there was a steady creep towards the modern figures.

IIRC, by the end of the 15th century Europe and the Middle East had not only recovered the population losses experienced during the Black Death, but surpassed their respective populations that had existed in the early 14th century. Yet the global population was still in the arena of 400-500 million people. The real jump in population started in the 17th century, following the initial period of European colonization, so that by the beginning of the 18th century the world population roared ahead to some 680 million people. By the mid 18th century, with the Agricultural Revolution under full swing, it had increased dramatically to some 800 million people. This was no steady creep; this was an explosion. There were lots of explosions in the nether regions for that too, if you catch my drift. Niceeeeeee.

On an unrelated note I feel a sudden urge to take up pipe smoking.

I'm not having too much trouble imagining this at all. Go forward and God bless; I just hope you have some good quality Virginia tobacco handy. As a farmer, you could also chew on a long piece of straw to satisfy the oral fixation that smokers have.

@Hellheaven1987: Correct me if I'm wrong, but during the Eastern Han, in addition to the volunteer recruit system replacing the Western-Han conscription system, didn't the government rely to a high degree on convicts to fill the ranks? That is, various men who commuted their court sentences by serving in the army.

[HuangCaesar]

Hey I read that the Persian Army at Gagemela had 40,000 cavalry. Lower estimates say 12,000. Which seems more accurate.

[RollingWave]

To give an idea, this is the inventory from 武库永始四年兵车器集簿 found in 1993, it records one of the larger (but probably not largest) Western Han military inventory in 13 BC.

弩弓：弩537707（乘舆11181），弓77521，小计615228
矢：弩矢11458424（乘舆34265），弓乘舆1199316（乘舆511），小计12657740
甲铠：甲142701（乘舆379），乘舆铁股衣225两1奇，铠63324，股甲衣□□□万563，铁甲札587299，革甲14斤。
头盔：（左革右是）暓98226（乘舆678），马甲（左革右是）暓5330
防牌：盾102551（乘舆2650）
枪：铜戈632（乘舆563），矛52555（乘舆2377），乘舆鈒943，鈹451222（乘舆1421），戟6634，有方78393，锻24167，小计614546
刀剑：剑99905（乘舆4），泾路匕首24804，锯□刀30098，刀156135，大刀127（232），小计311069
斧：铁斧1132（136）
战车：乘舆钲车、鼓车、武攠车18乘，乘舆兵车24乘。
连弩车564乘，冲车37辆，将军鼓车10乘，轻车301乘，将军兵车比二千将□鼓车116乘，□□车180乘，钲车8乘，鼓车6乘，战车1乘，□□车 564乘，□车1乘，武刚强弩车10乘，嘴弊车1乘，战车502乘，三轮兵车1乘（168），踪⒐瓿?乘，高□车11乘，□□车7两，□□车□车2133 两，素□重车1993乘，兵□车677乘，合车2乘，蜚楼行临车2乘。小计7174乘（乘舆42+7132）

The tranlated number would be (and given that all these numbers where down to single digits , it seems like this was a literal account.)

Bows&Crossbow:
--------Crossbow: 537,707 (imperial owned: 11,181)
--------Bows: 77,521
--------Subtotal: 615,228
Projectiles:
--------Crossbow bolts: 11,458,424 (imperial owned: 34,265)
--------Imperial owned arrows: 1,199,316 (imperial owned: 511)
--------Subtotal: 12,657,740
Armor:
--------Jia Armor: 142,701 (imperial owned: 34,265)
--------Iron thigh clothing: 255, 1 pair of unique ones
--------Kai armor: 63,324
--------Armored thigh clothing: …ten thousand 563
--------Iron lamellar armor: 587,299
--------Leather armor is 14 jin [7.5 lbs]
Helmets:
--------Helmets: 98,226
--------Horse armor: 5,330
Shields:
--------Shields: 102,551
Polearms:
--------Bronze Ge: 632 (imperial owned: 563)
--------Spear: 52,555 (imperial owned: 2377)
--------Imperial owned sheng: 943
--------Pi sword-staff: 451,222 (imperial owned: 1421)
--------Ji halberd: 6,634
--------YoFang: 78,393
--------Duan: 24,167
--------Subtotal: 614,546
Blades:
--------Sword: 99,905 (imperial owned: 4)
--------JingLu Dagger: 24,804
--------Saw…sabre: 30,098
--------Sabre: 156,135
--------Great Sabre: 127 (232)
--------Subtotal: 311,069
Axes:
--------Iron axe: 1132 (136)
Battle Carts:
--------ChengYuZheng chariots, drum chariots,
--------WuGang chariots:18
--------Soldier’s ChengYu chariots: 24
--------Interconnected Crossbow Carriage: 564
--------Charging chariot: 37
--------Drum Chariot: 4
--------Battle Chariot: 1
--------…chariot: 564
--------…chariot: 1
--------WuGang strong crossbow chariot: 10
--------ZuiBi chariot: 1
--------Battle chariot: 502
--------3 wheeled soldier’s chariot: 1 (168)
--------Tracking: 9
--------High…chariot: 11
--------….chariot: 7
--------….chariot…chariot: 2133
--------Su…heavy chariot: 1993
--------Soldier’s…chariot: 677
--------He chariot: 2
--------FeiLow temporary chariot: 2
--------Subtotal: 7174 (imperial owned 42 + 7132)

(Credit of Translation, HackneyedScribe on Historum.com)

The absolutely insane number of crossbow and bolts is quite telling. no tell me, if your maximum fighting power is indeed just 10k to 30k, why in the world would you stockpile 500k worth of crossbows?

Some interesting observation would be

1. pretty darn high number of armors, suggesting that pretty much everyone had armor, most had iron lamellar. though much lower number of helmets.

2. crossbows outnumbered bows almost 10 to 1

3. The most comon pole arm at the time was Pi which is basically a sword staff



(it use to be thought that this was a gladius, but modern research reveal it's actually a swordstaff.

[HuangCaesar]

Hackney is a pretty good debater but basing it on inventories is not the best way to judge an army size. For example the Department of Homeland Security for the United States has more ammunition than the US military. (Plus a huge ammount of Homeland Security agents are not employed to do combat missions even though there are 250,000 employed).

In 2003, The US DOD buys about 3600 M16A4 rifles per month. That is 43,000 M16A4s in the year of 2003. Not to take into consideration the previous and newly formed contracts with Colt Defense and FN. And the M16A4 is only now being issued to the Marine Corps, not Army.(who only has about 200,000 Marines) Now imagine all those weapons being produced....a surplus.

[Col. Tartleton]

IIRC, by the end of the 15th century Europe and the Middle East had not only recovered the population losses experienced during the Black Death, but surpassed their respective populations that had existed in the early 14th century. Yet the global population was still in the arena of 400-500 million people. The real jump in population started in the 17th century, following the initial period of European colonization, so that by the beginning of the 18th century the world population roared ahead to some 680 million people. By the mid 18th century, with the Agricultural Revolution under full swing, it had increased dramatically to some 800 million people. This was no steady creep; this was an explosion. There were lots of explosions in the nether regions for that too, if you catch my drift. Niceeeeeee.

Of course we have to remember that the New World had a quite a few people until they went poof through no fault of outside influences... The settlers took a while to replace the damage of the Mesoamerican collapse. Even by 1800 I don't think the Americas were more than a third of what it they were in 1500.

I'm not having too much trouble imagining this at all. Go forward and God bless; I just hope you have some good quality Virginia tobacco handy. As a farmer, you could also chew on a long piece of straw to satisfy the oral fixation that smokers have.

It would be foolish to smoke anything not from Virginia. You could get cancer from that.

I just need to convince myself to buy one. I mean when I told my doctor at my last physical that I didn't smoke and wasn't lying I felt a deep shame until she started playing with my scrotum. Purely professional of course.

[RollingWave]

Hackney is a pretty good debater but basing it on inventories is not the best way to judge an army size. For example the Department of Homeland Security for the United States has more ammunition than the US military. (Plus a huge ammount of Homeland Security agents are not employed to do combat missions even though there are 250,000 employed).

In 2003, The US DOD buys about 3600 M16A4 rifles per month. That is 43,000 M16A4s in the year of 2003. Not to take into consideration the previous and newly formed contracts with Colt Defense and FN. And the M16A4 is only now being issued to the Marine Corps, not Army.(who only has about 200,000 Marines) Now imagine all those weapons being produced....a surplus.

Well, stock tend to reflect maximum capacity no? the current US armed forces, even when in war situation, is well under it's potential capacities in terms of men power.

Though one should note that 13 bc is rather late in the Han period, it is certainly plausible that this inventory looks so huge because it's accumulated over many generations. And late Western Han saw almost no war, so the stocks reducing due to use would have been low.

[hellheaven1987]

@Hellheaven1987: Correct me if I'm wrong, but during the Eastern Han, in addition to the volunteer recruit system replacing the Western-Han conscription system, didn't the government rely to a high degree on convicts to fill the ranks? That is, various men who commuted their court sentences by serving in the army.

To be fair, it is fairly common practice throughout all period of history in all cultures, especially during emergency. Damned even Murica recruited "volunteer" convicts during first few months of Korean War in order to coup with low volunteering rate. However, convicts are not a stable manpower source unless you were like Qin Shi Huang, who was/is infamous for sending "convicts" to hard labors for commiting petty crimes. Overall, it seems most of East Han's military was like Tang Jie-Du-Shi system, heavily relied on foreign recruits of border to fulfill the manpower gap.

[Edelfred]

Ancient Chinese numbers on one battlefield/campaign seem to be on a Napoleonic scale. Compared to Rome(the greatest empire the West)were 40,000 men on a battlefield, maybye 150,000 in 1 area was a norm, the Chinese seem to be capable of fielding hundreds of thousands of men in 1 area. The Persians can only field about 100,000 and Ancient historians often argue they cannot field 200,000. Chinese could even field massive armies of horses as shown in the Xiongnu invasion. What gave the Chinese such a capacity to field armies not seen till the Early-Modern era?

How were there agriculture, population density, adminstration, bueracracy, command, logistics, terrain advantage so different from the Romans and Persians?

Rome is greatest Empire of the West?
Man , have you heard about Alexander ?
Or about Karl the Great?
The Frankish Empire was the greatest Western Empire .It was the one the modern West originated from .
Of course we can imagine English/Dutch/German burgher fed on sausage and beers sitting in WC and reading about madness of Roman Emperors ,but alas it is almost all
Rome has given to victorious Germanic burghers ..oh yes and Cosa Nostra to make their sweet sausage/beer consuming life poisoned by the Southern organised crime .

[Wu Guo]

During the late warring states the population was either 25-30 million according to Zhonguorenkoutongshi or 40-45 million according to Zhongguorenkoushi,imo Zhongguorenkoutongshi is more literal and Zhongguorenkoushi factors in the highest estimates so my guess would be around 35 million.

Zhonguorenkoutongshi also delineates the population of each Major and Minor Warring State.

7 major states.
Qin: At least 800,000 soldiers,total population 4,000,000
Qi: Total population 4,000,000
Chu: Total population 5,000,000
Yan: At least 400,000 soldiers,Total population 2,000,000
Han: At least 300,000 soldiers,Total population 1,500,000
Zhao: 700,000-800,000 soldiers(prior to Changping),Total population 3,500,000
Wei:700,000 soldiers,Total population 3,500,000

Minor states:
Lu: Total population:200,000
Wey: Total population:100,000
Song: Total population:100,000
Yue: Total population:100,000
Eastern Zhou and Western Zhou: Total population 500,000

However these above numbers are recorded they don't factor in estimates so the real number would be probably higher leading to higher estimates ie Zhongguorenkoushi.

[Roma_Victrix]

Of course we have to remember that the New World had a quite a few people until they went poof through no fault of outside influences... The settlers took a while to replace the damage of the Mesoamerican collapse. Even by 1800 I don't think the Americas were more than a third of what it they were in 1500.

It's mind-boggling just how many Native Americans across both continents died due to the introduction of Old World diseases like smallpox...something over 70%, maybe upwards of 80% of the population. However, I believe this was already factored in to the global population estimates, right?

It would be foolish to smoke anything not from Virginia. You could get cancer from that.

I just need to convince myself to buy one. I mean when I told my doctor at my last physical that I didn't smoke and wasn't lying I felt a deep shame until she started playing with my scrotum. Purely professional of course.

Priceless.

To give an idea, this is the inventory from 武库永始四年兵车器集簿 found in 1993, it records one of the larger (but probably not largest) Western Han military inventory in 13 BC.

Awesome! Thank you for sharing this. I would rep you for this, but I am unable to do so at the moment with my raised warning level.

It is hard to gauge the number of soldiers off this data, though, considering the incredibly high number for available crossbows and sword staffs, but much lower numbers for shields and helmets. Iron lamellar we are probably all familiar with, but what are "jia" and "kai" armors? Iron scale mail? Is one of them lacquered leather?

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

Hmm but doesn't historical sources say Aetius put the Alans in the center because they were the least reliable?

Jordanes does, yes, but Jordanes' job was to praise the Goths, whom the Alans were usually enemies of.

[HuangCaesar]

I'm suprised the Qin can employ 800,000 when its that population is 4 million. That is 20 percent of the population military. Standing armies today are usually no more than 1 percent of the population and a levy on masse like in WW2 usually did not exceed 10 percent.(due to the different combat arms, a huge ammount of air force and navy are transport.)

[HuangCaesar]

Rome is greatest Empire of the West?
Man , have you heard about Alexander ?
Or about Karl the Great?
The Frankish Empire was the greatest Western Empire .It was the one the modern West originated from .
Of course we can imagine English/Dutch/German burgher fed on sausage and beers sitting in WC and reading about madness of Roman Emperors ,but alas it is almost all
Rome has given to victorious Germanic burghers ..oh yes and Cosa Nostra to make their sweet sausage/beer consuming life poisoned by the Southern organised crime .

Calm down, greatest empire of the West at the time.

[HuangCaesar]

Well, stock tend to reflect maximum capacity no? the current US armed forces, even when in war situation, is well under it's potential capacities in terms of men power.

Though one should note that 13 bc is rather late in the Han period, it is certainly plausible that this inventory looks so huge because it's accumulated over many generations. And late Western Han saw almost no war, so the stocks reducing due to use would have been low.

No it does not. You want stock to be more than maximum capcity since equipment wears down and breaks down.

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

I thought the Qin army was like 600,000? Until after the conquest of Zhao and Han it grew to 800,000 or so.

[Col. Tartleton]

I'm suprised the Qin can employ 800,000 when its that population is 4 million. That is 20 percent of the population military. Standing armies today are usually no more than 1 percent of the population and a levy on masse like in WW2 usually did not exceed 10 percent.(due to the different combat arms, a huge ammount of air force and navy are transport.)

That might be 800,000 in the same sense that Rome could employ 700,000 men. As in had 800,000 fit for war. Split the population 50-50 for men and women. Then cut out kids, old people, and the disabled and 20% of the total population is fairly reasonable for say 18-45.

Or 4 million is far too low. They controlled quite a large and populated part of China even before their conquests of the other Kingdoms. Perhaps there were far more people. Plus China's limited slavery (primarily punishment for criminals) means their demography was quite strong. Slave powers like Greece or Rome had far more people than could ever be used for military service because they were servile.

[Roma_Victrix]

Rome is greatest Empire of the West?
Man , have you heard about Alexander ?
Or about Karl the Great?
The Frankish Empire was the greatest Western Empire .It was the one the modern West originated from .
Of course we can imagine English/Dutch/German burgher fed on sausage and beers sitting in WC and reading about madness of Roman Emperors ,but alas it is almost all
Rome has given to victorious Germanic burghers ..oh yes and Cosa Nostra to make their sweet sausage/beer consuming life poisoned by the Southern organised crime .

The last few lines of your post are so garbled they are almost incomprehensible.

You should define the criteria for a "greatest Western Empire", because in terms of the amount of conquered territory, population, urbanization, and sophisticated technological advancement, the Roman Empire in its heyday surpassed and dwarfed the size and achievements of Charlemagne's empire (and that of his immediate Carolingian successors). Even Alexander's Empire, while very large and extending into Pakistan, did not equal the size of the Roman Empire at its height, and was certainly far more fickle since it collapsed upon Alexander's death. The eastern Hellenistic successor states, the Ptolemaic and Seleucid Empires, were far outmatched by the Roman Empire at its height as well.

For that matter, I'm rather shocked you didn't mention the global Spanish Empire, at its height controlled by Charles V who was also Holy Roman Emperor over the German territories and, before their insurgency and war for independence, the Dutch Lowlands. His colonial empire was about the first Western entity to truly rival the Roman Empire at its zenith and basically surpassed its influence on account of it being spread across the globe.

Anyways...back on topic: Chinese field armies!