The Greatest blunder in the Second World War?

[Wulfburk]

(In your opinion? )


Well, one hell of a blunder was Mark Clark's order to capture Rome, after the Battle of Monte Cassino, instead of trapping the German 10th Army with the units that managed the breakthrough in Anzio, which was what Alexander (commander of the 15th Army Group) had ordered him. After one of the bloodiest battles the Western allies had fought, total victory was not achieved, Seven german divisions managed to escape through the gap Clark left open, and went forth to strenghten the Gothic Line. Result: The Italian front was the last to close in the war on Europe, while otherwise the allies would have much a clearer path, though still moving slowly due to the geography of the peninsula.



Truscott, the commander of the division that was supposed to close the gap, later wrote:

"...I was dumbfounded. This was no time to drive to the northwest where the enemy was still strong; we should pour our maximum power into the Valmontone Gap to insure the destruction of the retreating German Army. I would not comply with the order without first talking to General Clark in person. ...[However] he was not on the beachhead and could not be reached even by radio. ... such was the order that turned the main effort of the beachhead forces from the Valmontone Gap and prevented destruction of Tenth Army. On the 26th the order was put into effect

There has never been any doubt in my mind that had General Clark held loyally to General Alexander's instructions, had he not changed the direction of my attack to the northwest on May 26, the strategic objectives of Anzio would have been accomplished in full. To be first in Rome was a poor compensation for this lost opportunity"


It makes it even worse that, apparently, Mark Clark's decision was on the basis of not letting the BRITISH liberate Rome first. What kind of line of thought is that?! Here you got, your ally, his army outnumbers yours greatly (The 8th army was much bigger than the 5th if im not mistaken) you two are fighting together hand in hand, and then you just decide to ruin all the strategic operation so you get the fame of liberating rome?!



Well, truth be told -most- american generals in world war 2 were more worried about being on the papers and bashing the british counterparts than anything else... (Patton, Bradley, Clark.....)

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

More or less anything that Douglas MacArthur did, man was a retard. His decision to invade the Philippines still dumb founds me to this day and I still think Taiwan was a better target.

The other one I will say was Operation Typhoon, no frontal attacks on Moscow period.

Also the decision to actually attack Stalingrad with the Sixth Army and turn this fight into a meat grinder.
Followed closely by Erich von Manstein's poor handling of the relief attempt at Stalingrad.

[geyserik]

I agree with you Oda about Stalingrad! That was a classic set of bungling by Hitler!Pretty much began the beginning of the end in the east.

[SLN445]

Not crushing the British at Dunkirk is always a classic one.

[eisenkopf]

Not crushing the British at Dunkirk is always a classic one.

This. Given Hitler's true objective being war in the east, not grasping the opportunity to finish off his opponents in the west was the biggest blunder ever and probably decided the war already then.

[Darkhorse]

Not crushing the British at Dunkirk is always a classic one.

Rommel's doing.

Rommel advanced too far ahead and outpaced supporting assets. Therefore the half-arsed attack at Arras (had the French bothered it really could have been something special) was pretty effective and rattled Hitler, who ordered his units to wait for supporting arms. It was not, as some people claim, a respectful way to allow the British to leave the war with dignity or a move to encourage surrender.

Some people seem to think that the German's gifted the Allies' victory, truth is that German command in both wars were concerned primarily with the tactical, and botched the strategic. Even commanders such as Rommel were operating one level too high, were gamblers, and rarely concerned with the bigger picture.

I used to think Dieppe was a disaster, and I suppose it was. Although as an experiment it saved countless lives in Neptune, and as an intelligence grab again it was pretty successful. Plus it destroyed the port.

Again, I used to think Goodwood was a massive blunder as well, until I found a copy of the order which states that it was not a breakout.

That leaves Crete (for both sides) and Singapore (for the British) then.

[Aymer de Valence]

Hitler declaring war on the USA just as things in Russia ground to a halt. He is an idiot.

The other blunder is the Germans getting off lightly at the end of the war. A German victory would have plunged the world into darkness, and yet they were allowed to rebuild. Not right at all...

[Rijul.J.Ballal]

Dunkirk

The other blunder is the Germans getting off lightly at the end of the war. A German victory would have plunged the world into darkness, and yet they were allowed to rebuild. Not right at all...

What would you have them do, salt the ground like the Romans?

[conon394]

I Agree with Dunkirk not being a blunder:

The Germans were strung out and the original calls for delay or consolidation came from below not from Hitler. The RN really had a good evacuation plan and executed well. The RAF was finally able to be active in useful numbers. Even with no delay I imagine the British and french could have slid northward and evacuated from another spot. Dunkirk has Hitler's blunder is mostly I think the result of post war bibliography by German generals who realized its easy to blame the dead guys while you build your own self mythology.

I vote MacArthur and the fall of the Philippians. The greatest defeat the US ever suffered all because of his utter fantasy defense plan and completely inept handling of even his piss poor plan once the war started. A competent General should have and could have made Japan grind out a long costly battle that the IJA was not really wanting to spend men on. It would have and should diverted resources from other Japanese planed or concurrent attacks and other fronts.

Also

Midway and Yamamoto. His plan was over complex and by diverting critical CVs to a pointless operation Alaska - a complete non vital location of no import more or less - he reduced his chances of winning the battle he was planning at Midway which was the objective. Yes I know all about the relative economic advantage of the US and CV build rates, but... A Victory for the IJN would very much have disturbed the course of WW2. If the US lost its CVs and Japan retained most of its CV - It would retain the initiative in the Pacific. Midway was not all that valuable but its loss would hamper the US sub effort a bit, a defeat would undermine FDR and his ability to send resources anywhere but the Pacific (same for Australia and NZ and even S Africa for the UK).

Junyo and Ryujo were expendable but they should have been expended achieving a victory not wasting time in Alaska and they could have either found the US CVs or screened surface capital ships and allowing them to come into action or by their destruction absorbing the US attacks leaving the core of the KB to destroy the US CVs after discovering the trap.

[Aymer de Valence]

What would you have them do, salt the ground like the Romans?

You cannot let the single nation which is responsible for the two worst wars in human history get away without punishment. The terms set down by the Allies after WW1 were fair, but it should have been even harsher after WW2 once the world had found out what the Germans had been getting up to behind the scenes. A nation with a black past like that can never call themselves 'civilised'.

Also the evacuation at Dunkirk was anything but a blunder...

[conon394]

I might add Germany and Japan as co epic blunderers in Intelligence. They got their asses handed to them by all key 3 allied powers in pretty much every field of strategic espionage and or code breaking pretty much all the time.

[ShockBlast]

You cannot let the single nation which is responsible for the two worst wars in human history get away without punishment. The terms set down by the Allies after WW1 were fair, but it should have been even harsher after WW2 once the world had found out what the Germans had been getting up to behind the scenes. A nation with a black past like that can never call themselves 'civilised'.

Also the evacuation at Dunkirk was anything but a blunder...

Narrowmindness at it`s finest.Germany is not more guilty then UK, one can argue that France or Russia are more guilty by starting the mobilisation, speaking about WW1.

And we can`t speak about WW2 without taking WW1 into account.Without WW1 Germany wouldn`t have started WW2.Some historians actually argue that both wars can be seen as a bigger, hole, conflict thus blowing your Germanophobia out of the water.

Also, you tried to punish the Germans very hard but guess what, the European economy wasn`t recovering, I wonder way.

I might add Germany and Japan as co epic blunderers in Intelligence. They got their asses handed to them by all key 3 allied powers in pretty much every field of strategic espionage and or code breaking pretty much all the time.

With the exception of the epic fail about D-Day the Abwer did a good job of providing good information to the Wehrmacht.The allies had a lot of problems with information safe for some very talented spies form the occupied countries.

I would like to see the roles reversed,UK or USA being the invader and trying to keep the German spies out.I would hazard to say that they wouldn`t match the Abwer.

[Farnan]

More or less anything that Douglas MacArthur did, man was a retard. His decision to invade the Philippines still dumb founds me to this day and I still think Taiwan was a better target.

While I agree in general about MacArthur, he had to liberate the Philippines. The Philippines were US territory, leaving it in Japanese hands was unacceptable. US credibility in the region would have been destroyed and US honor demanded we liberate our people. There is a reason the Philippines is still a very close ally and one of the most pro-US countries in the world.

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

Yeah but he just killed more people and arguably provided the basis for the mass killings by the disorganized Japanese. MacArthur supposedly was out to conquer the southern areas controlled by Japan because he wanted oil or to eliminate Japanese military threats to the army's southern flanks. Both those things were unnecessary and by capturing Taiwan it could provide a direct attack platform to China, the Philippines or more importantly Japan.

I disagree with Dunkirk being a defeat, the decision made was the better of the two choices.

Midway sounds like a blunder to me although I can understand Yamamoto wanting a decisive battle because what was the alternative to be honest? But I agree that Alaska seems utterly pointless. Also I think that the Midway fleet would have been better off supporting operations elsewhere. Again though I have no idea so if anybody wants to take the time to educate me about Midway, why Yamamoto did it and what Japan could have gained or why it was a blunder then I thank you greatly.

The biggest blunder at the end of the war has to be Chiang Kai-shek not accepting the offer to add the Imperial Japanese Army to the Kuomintang. This potentially could have given him hundreds of thousands of experienced troops and officers, probably better diplomatic ties between China and Japan and maybe even that extra push he needed to hold or even defeat the Communists. Then again I'm not sure but a few hundred thousand troops never hurt anyone and considering how America later held him out to dry it sounds like a good alternative.

[Wulfburk]

Again, I used to think Goodwood was a massive blunder as well, until I found a copy of the order which states that it was not a breakout.

Well i always thought it was an operation to force the germans to muster most of their troops in the british and canadian sector, leaving the american sector mostly undefended for when Cobra started (exactly how it happened). And nevertheless it finished the liberation of Caen, so i guess it was quite succesful. Though there are some conflicting stuff about, most i have read says that Monty had such an operation (to make the germans be massed at the wrong side of the allied breakthrough) thought when he was planning Overlord, but as you said there are some who say it was a breakthrough attempt gone wrong....

The other blunder is the Germans getting off lightly at the end of the war. A German victory would have plunged the world into darkness, and yet they were allowed to rebuild. Not right at all...

Honestly i think how the allies handled Germany after the war it was the most right thing to do. They learned their mistakes in WW1. Their main objective was to not have another freaking war in the next twenty years against this destroyed beligerent. So you had to ease the revanchism in Germany, Occupying it for a few years for the sake of it, but there was no point in slaughtering it economycally, or separating it into all these little states like it was before the german unification. Though i think the fact that the USSR was just at their door made the german people and politicians not have any ill feeling (or close to any...) towards the western allies, but be more worried about the USSR, which therefore helped the reintegration of Western Germany into the normal affairs of Europe.

The worst thing they could do is dismantle Germany. It wasnt like the Austro Hungarian Empire or the Ottoman Empire, with all these cultural and ethnic differences in the many states it has, so the only thing it would do is encite revanchism through the german population and they would be already thinking of unifying the moment they got separated...

[Darkhorse]

Well i always thought it was an operation to force the germans to muster most of their troops in the british and canadian sector, leaving the american sector mostly undefended for when Cobra started (exactly how it happened). And nevertheless it finished the liberation of Caen, so i guess it was quite succesful. Though there are some conflicting stuff about, most i have read says that Monty had such an operation (to make the germans be massed at the wrong side of the allied breakthrough) thought when he was planning Overlord, but as you said there are some who say it was a breakthrough attempt gone wrong....

The difference in historiographical viewpoints regarding not only Goodwood, but the entirety of British involvement throughout the campaign, pretty much depends on what side of the Atlantic the historian is from.

Much of the confusion regarding Goodwood comes from the lack of understanding of figures such as Eisenhower and Tedder of the operations aims after Dempsey planned the operation a a breakout. It was Montgomery which limited the operation (using what is thought to be the sole written order of his career), but although this got through to Dempsey, O'Connor, and most importantly Alanbrooke and Bradley, the news did not reach Tedder and Ike until after the operation.

Add a pissed off Churchill and a botched press conference and you have a bit of a muddle.

[Aymer de Valence]

speaking about WW1.

Austria-Hungary and Germany are to blame for WW1, and those warmongers were dealt justice after the war. Britain's only 'fault' was using a country like Belgium as an excuse to join the war and therefore make it go global. The Germans thought we would sit back and let them roll over France; they were wrong.

As for WW2, it's good to know then that you can deliberately vote a little Austrian rat into power, take over 90% of Europe and kill millions of people in ways believed unheard of in the history of our race and STILL get off lightly at the end of it when you lose. Don't know why more haven't tried it! All of Germany should have been left to Stalin but then again, that wouldn't have been very sporting.


It is a shame really, as Britain and Germany made the most wonderful allies throughout history and now two wars which total 10 years have left a shadow over our people's relationship

[Gaidin]

Yeah but he just killed more people and arguably provided the basis for the mass killings by the disorganized Japanese. MacArthur supposedly was out to conquer the southern areas controlled by Japan because he wanted oil or to eliminate Japanese military threats to the army's southern flanks. Both those things were unnecessary and by capturing Taiwan it could provide a direct attack platform to China, the Philippines or more importantly Japan.

Many high level decisions in a war that size are steeped in politics by their very nature. It's something you're going to have to live with. The Philippines were a legitimate target as much as Taiwan just because they were American if not moreso. In fact them being American made them more of a legitimate target. It's hard to imagine a country that would just leave there own territory in enemy hands, especially when that territory is in a strategically useful location.

[Markas]

Market-Garden achieved very little aside from giving the Allies a finger-shaped salient that couldn't be used anymore. It came very close to being one of the most brilliant operations on the Western Theatre. Monty tends to get the blame, but Horrock's lame excuses tend to grate with me more.

My vote for the biggest blunder was Hitler's attitude toward the huge amount of people post-Barbarossa he could of called upon to solve manpower shortages in the Wehrmacht. Idiotic ideas about race tend not to gel well with military practicalities. The Vlasov army was sidelined and ignored for too long, and it was just the one result of the very tip of the Iceberg of anti-soviet feeling that could have been utilized.

Also, disbanding Divisions after Barbarossa and not fully turning German industry to a war economy deserves mention.

[Eugene of Savoy]

The phony war anyone?