A Saxon's Unorthodox Reflections in a German World

[Leonidas The Lion]

Diamat is in fact Widukind reborn.

[Astaroth]

Local autonomy is what I had proposed and I still think it might be a good solution, since it would allow Saxons to finally take self-responsibility, instead of blaming the West or politicians.

Some people will always feel inadequate or victimised, regardless of their degree of autonomy. Many people are always going to blame others for their own misfortune -- politicians, the EU, the US, Merkel, Steinmeier, women, minorities, immigrants, gays. That really has little to do with how much autonomy a region has. Such feelings of inadequacy and tendencies of intolerance can really only be addressed via improving the economic conditions and education.

As long as people feel that their economic needs are somewhat satisfied, most of them will overcome the feeling of 'lacking a purpose' or victimisation.

----

Actually, if Saxony were to become more autonomous, this would most likely hurt its economy severely. Even more people would move to different regions of Germany and the following economic downturn would likely result in even more extremism than before.

[Diamat]

Some people will always feel inadequate or victimised, regardless of their degree of autonomy. Many people are always going to blame others for their own misfortune -- politicians, the EU, the US, Merkel, Steinmeier, women, minorities, immigrants, gays. That really has little to do with how much autonomy a region has. Such feelings of inadequacy and tendencies of intolerance can really only be addressed via improving the economic conditions and education.

As long as people feel that their economic needs are somewhat satisfied, most of them will overcome the feeling of 'lacking a purpose' or victimisation.

----

Actually, if Saxony were to become more autonomous, this would most likely hurt its economy severely. Even more people would move to different regions of Germany and the following economic downturn would likely result in even more extremism than before.

This is why local autonomy must also entail the construction of a new Saxon spirit, one which would prevent such migration. Economic integration with the other Länder is of course essential and should not be done away with all for the sake of some sense of local identity. Saxon national identity instead should foster a recognition of ourselves by other Germans and by us. What I am proposing isn't the fracturing of Germany, but a better union. Perhaps, only perhaps, the emergence of new local identities and giving these identities full recognition is the better path toward globalization.

[Aikanár]

So basically you want to create some sort of local patriotism combined with more autonomy on the one hand, you like to keep the benefits of the Federal System like the Länderfinanzausgleich (in which Saxony is a major receiver and benefits from it in a huge way) on the other hand?

Edit:

I disagree with a lot of that, so much that it's probably best not to discuss it further, because these are very sensitive topics that continue divide "Germans."

Really? Does it? I think you're taking a very easy and cheap exit here.

Anyway, the point of this whole thread was to reflect upon perceived spiritual wrongs and propose potential solutions. Local autonomy is what I had proposed and I still think it might be a good solution, since it would allow Saxons to finally take self-responsibility, instead of blaming the West or politicians. Covering up their own inequality under such all-encompassing categories as "German" (in order to gain a false sense of superiority) is not a solution. German unity is not the solution to local disparity; in my view, it will only lead to extremism. Autonomy is the way to go.

The spiritual wrong is that it is preceived. You believe in that, I don't. Others don't. As far as I'm concerned, you're creating something here and then you present the supposed solution which was also created by you. And then you ask for opinions and when they are provided and don't fit your concept you refer to topicality and escape the discussion.

I'm disappointed. The entire topic was of no interest of mine whatsoever, but you asked specifically for my opinion and when it turned out, that my opinion does not fit your illusion, you escape discussing it. I'm disappointed.

[Vaðarholmr]

Isn't High German a weird construct anyway? Isn't "German" split in at least two languages?

[Aikanár]

Isn't High German a weird construct anyway? Isn't "German" split in at least two languages?

Not in contemporary Germany, there's only one German language known as either Hochdeutsch, Standarddeutsch or Schriftdeutsch, those terms are synonym for one and the same thing. Every other thing are local dialects like in other languages.

[Diamat]

So basically you want to create some sort of local patriotism combined with more autonomy on the one hand, you like to keep the benefits of the Federal System like the Länderfinanzausgleich (in which Saxony is a major receiver and benefits from it in a huge way) on the other hand?

The spiritual wrong is that it is preceived. You believe in that, I don't. Others don't. As far as I'm concerned, you're creating something here and then you present the supposed solution which was also created by you. And then you ask for opinions and when they are provided and don't fit your concept you refer to topicality and escape the discussion.

I'm disappointed. The entire topic was of no interest of mine whatsoever, but you asked specifically for my opinion and when it turned out, that my opinion does not fit your illusion, you escape discussing it. I'm disappointed.

I'm not sure what you want me to say. I have no specific vision, except for some vague notions about local autonomy and a reconstruction of spirit. One can hardly pre-construct a "revolution."

[Bethencourt]

I think German union was created historically over several dimensions. The monarchy and the aristocratic division of the territory, the common language, economy, culture, the feeling of sharing something, something that is important and different in relation to the rest of the world. Some of these dimensions have been destroyed as the time passed and replaced by other values. Maybe some of them need more time as the changes have been very recent so it gets to a new balance. I think the economy division caused by the partition of the country after the WWII is very recent, and all the ideology (not only the political one) that comes with it, and maybe despite it may have been somehow solved there must be some remnants of this problem existing not only in the real plane but also in the coletive psycology. In every of those dimensios there were and there are forces, interests, ideas, institutions working in favor of the union but also there are the some others working against it, all of them legitimate, and the result of these things evolve. And the result is the actual situation. It is natural that they exist as the content or the discontent with the result do. Content or discontent that come from a very personal perception for each member of the society. I think if Saxons generally feel to be living an unfair situation, not meaning that is necessarily responsabilty of other peoples, probably none will help them more than their determination to improve that situation.

[Aikanár]

I meant the way you evade and escape discussion, but whatever.

[Diamat]

I meant the way you evade and escape discussion, but whatever.

That's because I'm not interested in political debate. My arguments are generally based on philosophy. I'm not good in political debate because it simply doesn't interest me and tends to only generate animosity. All my ideas are grounded in Hegelian and Marxist evaluations of Saxony's situation, and I can't really speak beyond that. I can't even deny your own experiences that would suggest the contrary. It's not that I want to intentionally avoid political debate, but I'm simply not really capable of it or don't think like that. After all, I'm the type of guy who would deny democracy altogether, which would give us no basis of common discussion.

And I should further add that political debate, in my view, is self-rationalizing. It has no inherent value beyond demonstrating the working of Reason. In other words, it is Reason reasoning itself.

[Aikanár]

Ah, alright, thank you for your reply now I can understand you

Just to help you understand me, I wasn't looking for a political debate either, but thought you were looking for a general discussion of those topics you've brought up, hence I felt a little awkward thinking you'll be asking for an honest opinion and then refraining from discussion.

I'm sorry that I've misunderstood you.

[Bethencourt]

Ok dudes, after this love declaration, CAN SOMEONE ANSWER MY POST!?

[Aikanár]

No, sorry, we're busy holding hands and exchanging fraternal kisses

[Astaroth]

Diamat and Aikanar sharing their love.

[Bethencourt]

Bah! who cares about the post?, let's make a Great German Saxon love parade!

[Vaðarholmr]

Not in contemporary Germany, there's only one German language known as either Hochdeutsch, Standarddeutsch or Schriftdeutsch, those terms are synonym for one and the same thing. Every other thing are local dialects like in other languages.

Scholarly arguments have been put forward in favour of classifying Low German as a German dialect.[14][15] As said, these arguments are not linguistic but rather socio-political and build mainly around the fact that Low German has no official standard form or use in sophisticated media. The situation of Low German may thus be considered a pseudo-dialectized abstand language.

In contrast, Old Saxon and Middle Low German are generally considered separate languages in their own rights.

I'm pretty sure the German Dialects are more than different enough to be their own language. But then many now seem to speak High German with regional accents rather than the old dialects.

[Aikanár]

Waaah, as long as I've the choice, I'm Breschnew

[Aikanár]

I'm pretty sure the German Dialects are more than different enough to be their own language. But then many now seem to speak High German with regional accents rather than the old dialects.

I'm pretty sure the German Dialects are not more than different enough to be their own language. See what I did there?

There is only one official German language in contemporary Germany and that is Hochdeutsch. Everything else is commonly considered a dialect by Germans. We were not discussing linguistics, but politics (me) and philosophy (Diamat) so I'm not referring to the Low German language group but to what is considered the official language of Germany and what is considered dialects in Germany and that has nothing to do with linguistic research whatsoever.

Low German or Plattdütsch, which is the more fitting term since we're speaking of Germany and not of the Low Countries or anywhere else, is a local dialect, like Schwäbisch, Sächsisch, Bayerisch, Berliner Schnautze, Südhessisch, Oberhessisch and what not.

And we're not talking about Altsächsisch oder Mittelhochdeutsch since we're talking about contemporary Germany and contemporary German.

Edit: On a second thought, since we've all discussed different things why not join with a discussion of linguistics

[Vaðarholmr]

I'm pretty sure the German Dialects are not more than different enough to be their own language. See what I did there?

There is only one official German language in contemporary Germany and that is Hochdeutsch. Everything else is commonly considered a dialect by Germans. We were not discussing linguistics, but politics (me) and philosophy (Diamat) so I'm not referring to the Low German language group but to what is considered the official language of Germany and what is considered dialects in Germany and that has nothing to do with linguistic research whatsoever.

Low German or Plattdütsch, which is the more fitting term since we're speaking of Germany and not of the Low Countries or anywhere else, is a local dialect, like Schwäbisch, Sächsisch, Bayerisch, Berliner Schnautze, Südhessisch, Oberhessisch and what not.

And we're not talking about Altsächsisch oder Mittelhochdeutsch since we're talking about contemporary Germany and contemporary German.

Scots are referred to as some as a different language, but not Scottish English. Dalecarlian dialect group in Sweden is often though of as a different language, though most Swedes who do not speek it or study it see it as "just" a dialect. But then again Norwegian, Darlecarlian and Swedish could be counted as the same language as well. There are no clear definition on what's a language and not. "A shprakh iz a dialekt mit an armey un flot".

I'm just saying that there are big differences in the dialects in Germany, which makes sense since it is a very big country. And that they could easily be called different languages. If you do that's another thing. Yiddish could be called just a dialect too.

Edit: The point is that if a region in the North separated there would be no problem for them to reform the grammar and begin using their own language, that would be quite different from High German.

[Aikanár]

Except that most of it's population, especially the vast majority of people born since 1980, wouldn't be able to speak the language more than rudimental, if at all. Nowadays the German dialects within Germany are more or less reduced to a certain sound and way to pronounce, only very few words could truly be considered of dialect origin - like you said in your post, often the accent is so slight, that you have to hear it twice in order to recognise it.