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Thread: Reasons for Pope Urban calling for first crusade

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    Default Reasons for Pope Urban calling for first crusade

    Was wondering if anybody could help me out here. I'm looking for a few reasons for the declaration of the first crusade. What I have already:1. Emporer Alexios I asking for aid against the Seljuks2. The pope hearing this and possibly wishing to impose Roman catholic superiority over Orthodoxy3. Reclamation of the holy landAnything else or could you help me elaborate on these? Any ideas welcome, thanks.

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    Default Re: Reasons for Pope Urban calling for first crusade

    The letter of help from the Byzantine emperor prompted the Pope to proclaim the First Crusade, and his objective was to unify the Christian world which split in 1054
    and never got united after that. Also, Pope thought how holy cities like Jerusalem should be in Christian hands basically.
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    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: Reasons for Pope Urban calling for first crusade

    No, that letter was an excuse. He called the crusade to solve one of the biggest problems facing the Catholic church in the 11th century catholic knights slaughtering each other and the peasants by the thousands. That happened out of two reasons: poverty and the lack of common enemy. The Holy lands were damn smack at the center of most European- Asian trade routes and they were held by someone who could be seen as a foe by all.
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    Mausolos of Caria's Avatar Royal Satrap
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    Default Re: Reasons for Pope Urban calling for first crusade

    I think one of his, if not THE, main reason, was Urban's conflict with Clemens III. (Guibert of Ravenna), who had been proclaimed Pope as well and was struggling for control of the Catholic Church with Urban. To regain his dominant position, Urban needed to convince all Christians of his rightfulness for the post and a crusade to save the holy land from the infidels seemed like a very good opportunity.
    That was also the reason why Urban went to France for his declaration, since that was one of his power bases, while Clemens supporters in most of the Holy Roman Empire, but also in other parts of Italy and a great part of England rejected the call to take part in the first crusade, so the first crusader knights were mostly from France.
    "Pompeius, after having finished the war against Mithridates, when he went to call at the house of Poseidonios, the famous teacher of philosophy, forbade the lictor to knock at the door, as was the usual custom, and he, to whom both the eastern and the western world had yielded submission, ordered the fasces to be lowered before the door of science."

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    Default Re: Reasons for Pope Urban calling for first crusade

    There's also the growing danger to Christian pilgrims due to Muslim disunity and lack of centralized power. Something shown by events such as the Great German Pilgrimage. Although the treatment of non-Muslims was generally quite good, with the exception of Caliph al-Hakim. Nonetheless writers like Robert the Monk reported the mistreatment of Christians so it would still have been a factor.
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    Default Re: Reasons for Pope Urban calling for first crusade

    All useful and valid reasons, thanks for the replies you guys these will be helpful.

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    hellheaven1987's Avatar Comes Domesticorum
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    Default Re: Reasons for Pope Urban calling for first crusade

    Quote Originally Posted by Mausolos of Caria View Post
    I think one of his, if not THE, main reason, was Urban's conflict with Clemens III. (Guibert of Ravenna), who had been proclaimed Pope as well and was struggling for control of the Catholic Church with Urban. To regain his dominant position, Urban needed to convince all Christians of his rightfulness for the post and a crusade to save the holy land from the infidels seemed like a very good opportunity.
    That was also the reason why Urban went to France for his declaration, since that was one of his power bases, while Clemens supporters in most of the Holy Roman Empire, but also in other parts of Italy and a great part of England rejected the call to take part in the first crusade, so the first crusader knights were mostly from France.
    That was why Urban II was eager to push reform...

    Besides First Crusade could largely divided into four groups - southern French, northern French (more precisely, Normandy and lowlands; whether you believe they were French or not is up to you), Rhine German and Sicily Norman.
    Last edited by hellheaven1987; April 18, 2014 at 02:16 PM.
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    Col. Tartleton's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Reasons for Pope Urban calling for first crusade

    "The only thing the French like more than teaming up with the Muslims to fight Catholics is to team up with Catholics to fight Muslims. To be honest one must wonder if in fact the French just like fighting."

    - A Brief History of France from Chlodio to Hollande
    Last edited by Col. Tartleton; April 18, 2014 at 11:18 PM.
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    Default Re: Reasons for Pope Urban calling for first crusade

    Another factor could be because of the Seljuk and Fatimid clashes which Jerusalem went back and forth between the two states. Seljuks wars with the Byzantine Empire

    There's many factors on why the Crusades happened.

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    Default Re: Reasons for Pope Urban calling for first crusade

    Quote Originally Posted by Col. Tartleton View Post
    "The only thing the French like more than teaming up with the Muslims to fight Catholics is to team up with Catholics to fight Muslims. To be honest one must wonder if in fact the French just like fighting."

    - A Brief History of France from Chlodio to Hollande
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    Default Re: Reasons for Pope Urban calling for first crusade

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    No, that letter was an excuse. He called the crusade to solve one of the biggest problems facing the Catholic church in the 11th century catholic knights slaughtering each other and the peasants by the thousands. That happened out of two reasons: poverty and the lack of common enemy. The Holy lands were damn smack at the center of most European- Asian trade routes and they were held by someone who could be seen as a foe by all.
    Excellent, they missed common enemy and they were killing themselves instead. Turks presented "the other",the antithesis the obstacle and help them build European identity. Really good observation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mausolos of Caria View Post
    I think one of his, if not THE, main reason, was Urban's conflict with Clemens III. (Guibert of Ravenna), who had been proclaimed Pope as well and was struggling for control of the Catholic Church with Urban. To regain his dominant position, Urban needed to convince all Christians of his rightfulness for the post and a crusade to save the holy land from the infidels seemed like a very good opportunity.
    That was also the reason why Urban went to France for his declaration, since that was one of his power bases, while Clemens supporters in most of the Holy Roman Empire, but also in other parts of Italy and a great part of England rejected the call to take part in the first crusade, so the first crusader knights were mostly from France.
    Didn't know Urban had his own anti pope. quite Interesting, thanks mate.

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    Default Re: Reasons for Pope Urban calling for first crusade

    Hmm the crusades were about church unity, the holy places and helping Eastern Christians? This thread needs more Dan Brown.

    I think that Urban was secretly the head of the proto-Jesuits (who would stage their apparent foundation centuries later) who were dedicated to killing the decendents of Mary Magdalene of Nazareth, the real founder of Christianity (and Buddhism) who had placed matriarchs holding the real gospel of Jesusina (Mary's daughter and the prophet of Christianity until the Roman Emperors re-wrote the gospels) in sacred shrines in Jerusalem.

    Meanwhile the faction of Clemens (secretly Muslim Freemasons) sought the gospels as well so they could find the hidden messages that pointed to where Joan the Baptist had buried King Solomon's treasure. This in turn was opposed by the Caliphs (secretly atheist trade unionists) who wanted free daycare for single mothers and needed the treasure to fund their bloated nanny state aspirations.

    Meanwhile the Byzantine Emperors (secretly Roman Basileoi) attempted to reconquer their lost lands by inviting Western adventurers to rally to their flag, only to find themselves overthrown by mercantile schemers from up the Adriatic..wait...too unlikely...
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    Dago Red's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Reasons for Pope Urban calling for first crusade

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    No, that letter was an excuse. He called the crusade to solve one of the biggest problems facing the Catholic church in the 11th century catholic knights slaughtering each other and the peasants by the thousands. That happened out of two reasons: poverty and the lack of common enemy. The Holy lands were damn smack at the center of most European- Asian trade routes and they were held by someone who could be seen as a foe by all.
    This.

    Most Europeans who partook had little interest in helping the Emperor* and many had in fact been at war with elements of the Eastern Empire in the past. Some of the Italo-Norman princes had a bone to pick with Constantinople. Their reasons of course were varied, but as for the Pope, the growing plight of Constantinople was just a great excuse. In order to solve his main problem (see Sir Adrian's post) he had to wrap it all in a pious call for duty to God. Many of the masses were moved by the promise of salvation, many of the more educated were as well, but there is no secret to the aims of many for riches, and power... and of course, new landed titles.

    There were cities under siege and wars all over Europe at the time the Crusade was called. prince Bohemund was literally right in the middle of trying to sack a walled city in Italy when he decided to "take up the cross."

    The internal issue with Pope Clement III is another good point. He had already been around being a second Pope since 1080, 15 years already, so it wasn't a new threat or sudden change to Urban's claim.


    *and it was not called Byzantium, that is a later invention and an incorrect term, it was the Eastern Roman Empire. The Greco Roman Emperor didn't know anything about a mythical place called Byzantium, he lived in Constantinople and ruled over the remnants of the Roman Empire.

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    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Call me Ishmael
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    Default Re: Reasons for Pope Urban calling for first crusade

    From what I understand, Pope Urban was all like "YOLO, bro!" And Constantine I was all frightened like "what, what, homeboy?" And Godfrey of Bouillon was all like "raise the roof [of Christ], dog!" And Raymond IV of Toulouse was all like "know what I'm saying, G[rand Master of the Templars]?" And Stephen, Count of Blois was all like "just put your hands in the air, and wave them like you just don't care [about Saracens]."


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    hellheaven1987's Avatar Comes Domesticorum
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    Default Re: Reasons for Pope Urban calling for first crusade

    Quote Originally Posted by Dago Red View Post
    but there is no secret to the aims of many for riches, and power... and of course, new landed titles.
    Perhaps only Norman had that hope, as majority did believe captured land should return to ERE and swore an oath to it. Even when Antioch was captured Bohemond needed to play "Emperor betrayed us first" card in order to get the city, with more than half of Crusaders believed his claim was nonsense and the land should still return to ERE. However, once Bohemond started the game other lords also started their own ambitious game as well (more precisely, Raymond IV started his game).
    Last edited by hellheaven1987; April 24, 2014 at 12:43 PM.
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    Default Re: Reasons for Pope Urban calling for first crusade

    Quote Originally Posted by hellheaven1987 View Post
    Perhaps only Norman had that hope, as majority did believe captured land should return to ERE and swore an oath to it. Even when Antioch was captured Bohemond needed to play "Emperor betrayed us first" card in order to get the city, with more than half of Crusaders believed his claim was nonsense and the land should still return to ERE. However, once Bohemond started the game other lords also started their own ambitious game as well (more precisely, Raymond IV started his game).
    Good call I didn't mean to paint all the First Crusade with one brush. However it seems clear more than just Bohemund was after power and material wealth. Perhaps the French in general were more true to the cause though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    From what I understand...
    And Kilij Arslan caught a glimpse of them people's crusade coming and said, "Dat ass," while Salah al Din sat back talking about, "bring it fool." Yes, yes now kids will understand.

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    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Call me Ishmael
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    Default Re: Reasons for Pope Urban calling for first crusade

    Quote Originally Posted by Dago Red View Post
    And Kilij Arslan caught a glimpse of them people's crusade coming and said, "Dat ass," while Salah al Din sat back talking about, "bring it fool." Yes, yes now kids will understand.
    Kids these days. If only they could be like kids you see in ancient Roman and medieval European artwork...silent, solemn, expressionless miniature adults.

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    hellheaven1987's Avatar Comes Domesticorum
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    Default Re: Reasons for Pope Urban calling for first crusade

    Quote Originally Posted by Dago Red View Post
    Good call I didn't mean to paint all the First Crusade with one brush. However it seems clear more than just Bohemund was after power and material wealth. Perhaps the French in general were more true to the cause though.
    The issue is "who"; primary sources technically only mention Bohemond and Raymond IV performed actions for private gains. On the other hands, those sources also mentioned ultimately religious motivation triumphed over private interest most time. For example, the quarrel of how to deal Antioch was finally "settled" when bulk of crusaders were tired and disgusted about Bohemond and Raymond's self interest and threatened they would kick them out of Crusade if they continued this ugly land grab feast, so Raymond, in order not to alienate the crusaders, abandoned the quarrel and pressed on the Crusade. The rise of Godfrey also largely had to do with the general disgusting crusaders felt towards Bohemond and Raymond's self motivation, as Godfrey was generally shown having little private interest, believed so far that Jerusalem should belong to Church.
    Last edited by hellheaven1987; April 24, 2014 at 04:50 PM.
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    Default Re: Reasons for Pope Urban calling for first crusade

    A slightly off topic post, but you guys ever see that movie kingdom of heaven?

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    Default Re: Reasons for Pope Urban calling for first crusade

    Quote Originally Posted by Rijul.J.Ballal View Post
    A slightly off topic post, but you guys ever see that movie kingdom of heaven?
    Yes although it's based on the Third Crusade and the writings of William of Tyre.
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