Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 22

Thread: Would a Scottish warrior have used a falchion at the battle of Stirling Bridge?

  1. #1

    Default Would a Scottish warrior have used a falchion at the battle of Stirling Bridge?

    I'm in the midst of watching Braveheart again. I was paying closer attention to the falchions wielded by several of them. I know that they were utilized by some soldiers, considered a lesser weapon, perhaps lower quality steel, but did the Scots actually use them during that period (Stirling Bridge 1297)? Would blood grooves (fullers) have been part of the falchion at this time in history in Scotland?

    Blood grooves are added for thrusting weapons to enhance bleeding, but as you can see the blood groove doesn't go all the way, nor does it look like a thrusting weapon, so I'm thinking those are not blood grooves at all.

    In the film Tristan and Isolde, which of course is about the Dark Age period of Wales, but shows tribes from Ireland as well as a variety of the tribes of England, Morholt from Ireland appears to be using a falchion as well (poisoned to jog your memory as I cannot produce a good picture link. That must be ahistorical, right?



    With the weight of the end, I've read that it was used sometimes as a cleaver, but I'll bet that this significantly slowed down actual use.

    This kind of falchion appears in the Maciejowski Bible (possibly 1240-1250 AD) depicting medieval war.
    http://www.medievaltymes.com/courtya...ski_images.htm



    The triangular head can be all on the back side, all on the front, or a mix.
    Last edited by RubiconDecision; April 14, 2014 at 12:15 AM.

  2. #2
    Dante Von Hespburg's Avatar Sloth's Inferno
    Moderator Emeritus

    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    4,996

    Default Re: Would a Scottish warrior have used a falchion at the battle of Stirling Bridge?

    I think here my friend in regards to Braveheart in particular, you need to take the movie with a massive pinch of salt...the Scot's in Brave-heart (Wallace especially) would not have been wearing 'Plaids' or Kilts like that at all in the first place. Especially not with a Clan tartan yet! So i think it's safe to assume their was quite a bit of artistic licence taken.
    House of Caesars: Under the Patronage of Char Aznable

    Proud Patron of the roguishly suave Gatsby


  3. #3
    Ringeck's Avatar Lauded by his conquests
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Oslo
    Posts
    1,449

    Default Re: Would a Scottish warrior have used a falchion at the battle of Stirling Bridge?

    The falchion from Braveheart looks very rough, but falchions were widely used in the early 14th century (not, though, during the early medieval period or the migration period ). Some triangular forms that slightly resemble the Braveheart one can be seen on, for example, the Kortwijk (Courtrai) Chest, but they are not very detailed due to the size of the figures.
    "Blood groves" -that are called "fullers" in sword parlance - are there to reduce weight and stiffen the blade. They have nothing to do with blood - one of the french terms for it, which "gutter" comes from, means "cutting a small hole/indentation". Modern stupidity combined with imagination added the "blood" there.
    Falchions have (again by modern historians with little experience or knowledge of weapons) often been assumed to be lower-quality weapons, but they are as varied in quality as the many different swords that have survived the middle ages and been preserved down to our time. Some were high-quality weapons and a few surprisingly light for their type.
    -Client of ThiudareiksGunthigg-

    tabacila speaks a sad truth:
    Well I guess fan boys aren't creatures meant to be fenced in. They roam free like the wild summer wind...

  4. #4
    Gatsby's Avatar Punctual Romantic
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    København, DK
    Posts
    2,906

    Default Re: Would a Scottish warrior have used a falchion at the battle of Stirling Bridge?

    To me it seems that due to the ease in making a lower-end falchion and the general poverty evident in a large chunk of the Scottish forces (though not as extremely primitive as Braveheart makes it seem) suggests it to be fairly likely that some would have been used. Braveheart makes many far-fetched illustrations of the wars of independence - the absence of a bridge at the Battle of Stirling Bridge being one of them - but a falchion being used in Wallace's army seems not unlikely even though my knowledge on medieval military matters is limited.
    Last edited by Gatsby; April 14, 2014 at 01:33 PM.
    You'll have more fun at a Glasgow stabbing than an Edinburgh wedding.

    Under the patronage of the mighty Dante von Hespburg

  5. #5
    Col. Tartleton's Avatar Comes Limitis
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Cape Ann
    Posts
    13,053

    Default Re: Would a Scottish warrior have used a falchion at the battle of Stirling Bridge?

    Contrary to popular opinion the only different between the two sides at Stirling were the size of forces and the colors of their surcoats. We're talking mail armored professionals for the most part. The Scots were outnumbered 6:1 but made good use of terrain to only fight a third of the army (who got absolutely stomped with like 100% casualties). Sir William Wallace was a knight, his father was a knight, Sir Alan Wallace, and I suspect his grandfather was a knight although I'd have to look deeper. Wallace is Scottish for Welsh, because his family originally came from Cumbria, which is to Scotland what Cambria (Wales) is to England. Stirling Bridge in the movie is based on Bannockburn which occurred nine years after Wallace's death and obviously in which he played no part.

    Basically what really happened was after a series of premature deaths the Queen of Scotland was a 3 year old Norwegian Princess and two noble houses, the Bruce and Balliol families were basically going to murder the out of each other to get it. Naturally the regency council was like "they're probably going to kill everyone we should do something." So Edward of England offered to recognize Balliol (who had less of a claim than Bruce or the Princess) to avoid bloodshed. However he demanded that the King of Scots officially become his vassal as had already basically been the case, but never formally. However this got really awkward so they reorganized and basically broke their word and made an alliance with France which pissed off Edward because they back stabbed him. So he invaded and pressured Balliol to resign and go into exile in France and effectively became sole King. This led to several Scottish rebellions (i.e. Knights and Barons, not peasants) such as Wallace's and Moray's. Ultimately Bruce entered the fray, defeated the English and took over the place and became a national hero. Edward who acted reasonably and fairly throughout (if in his national interest) is considered a villain.

    Falchions are designed to bite into mail armor (or at least damage it and beat the bejeezus out of the guy wearing it) so yes I imagine they had some. They definitely existed by the 11th century and this was almost the 14th century. They did not have Falchions during the 6th century (Tristan and Isolde are historical figures) you are correct. I'm not aware of any weapons like that in Sub Roman Britain. They should be armed with Spathas.
    Last edited by Col. Tartleton; April 14, 2014 at 03:11 PM.
    The Earth is inhabited by billions of idiots.
    The search for intelligent life continues...

  6. #6

    Default Re: Would a Scottish warrior have used a falchion at the battle of Stirling Bridge?

    Thanks for the responses especially Ringeck about the fullers. Well, that's interesting. It's making the falchion stronger by a spine but reducing the weight by taking out that machined section and not spurting blood by thrusting. That's very helpful. I'd like to own one as I think it's a multiuse weapon as well as beautiful and novel.

    Yeah, Braveheart is ridiculously ahistorical but enjoyable to watch even when making you groan. Sophie Marceau plays Isabella of France who was four and of course not married to her Edward II yet, but later instead of innocent actually was called the Shewolf of France and led her own invasion of Scotland.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isabella_of_France

    The cinematographer's depiction of her with full length hair to the back of her knees evokes something from the art of Waterhouse or Rosetti, and probably nothing like Isabella looked like. She was smoking hot though back then. See Firelight sometime with your girlfriend if you'd like a romantic date.
    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0119125/

  7. #7
    Aymer de Valence's Avatar Protector Domesticus
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Somewhere along The Pilgrim's Way.....
    Posts
    4,270

    Default Re: Would a Scottish warrior have used a falchion at the battle of Stirling Bridge?

    Braveheart is the biggest load of so no
    Cry God for Harry, England and Saint George!

  8. #8
    René Artois's Avatar Dux Limitis
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Wales
    Posts
    18,851

    Default Re: Would a Scottish warrior have used a falchion at the battle of Stirling Bridge?

    Quote Originally Posted by Col. Tartleton View Post
    Contrary to popular opinion the only different between the two sides at Stirling were the size of forces and the colors of their surcoats. We're talking mail armored professionals for the most part. The Scots were outnumbered 6:1 but made good use of terrain to only fight a third of the army (who got absolutely stomped with like 100% casualties). Sir William Wallace was a knight, his father was a knight, Sir Alan Wallace, and I suspect his grandfather was a knight although I'd have to look deeper. Wallace is Scottish for Welsh, because his family originally came from Cumbria, which is to Scotland what Cambria (Wales) is to England. Stirling Bridge in the movie is based on Bannockburn which occurred nine years after Wallace's death and obviously in which he played no part.

    Basically what really happened was after a series of premature deaths the Queen of Scotland was a 3 year old Norwegian Princess and two noble houses, the Bruce and Balliol families were basically going to murder the out of each other to get it. Naturally the regency council was like "they're probably going to kill everyone we should do something." So Edward of England offered to recognize Balliol (who had less of a claim than Bruce or the Princess) to avoid bloodshed. However he demanded that the King of Scots officially become his vassal as had already basically been the case, but never formally. However this got really awkward so they reorganized and basically broke their word and made an alliance with France which pissed off Edward because they back stabbed him. So he invaded and pressured Balliol to resign and go into exile in France and effectively became sole King. This led to several Scottish rebellions (i.e. Knights and Barons, not peasants) such as Wallace's and Moray's. Ultimately Bruce entered the fray, defeated the English and took over the place and became a national hero. Edward who acted reasonably and fairly throughout (if in his national interest) is considered a villain.

    Falchions are designed to bite into mail armor (or at least damage it and beat the bejeezus out of the guy wearing it) so yes I imagine they had some. They definitely existed by the 11th century and this was almost the 14th century. They did not have Falchions during the 6th century (Tristan and Isolde are historical figures) you are correct. I'm not aware of any weapons like that in Sub Roman Britain. They should be armed with Spathas.
    Actually the Wal- part of Wallace comes from the Old English word for foreigner, as is Wales and other place names in Britain with Wal- at the beginning, e.g. Walton.
    Cymru, Cambria and Cumbria indeed have the same root as each other, but in Brythonic for countrymen. With Cumbria it shows how within Post-Roman Britain, the area was not brought under Anglo-Saxon rule until later than other areas of England, as the Celtic name still survives.

    I too have never seen any evidence of falchions in Post-Roman Britain, and it is unlikely they had the metal working skills to make such a weapon effective. Even Early Anglo-Saxon swords were rather poorly made, and mostly for show, as a symbol of power, rather than something capable of inflicting serious damage on somebody. Spears and shields would have been the weapons of choice for most. Plus you need to consider that a falchion would not have been very useful in a shield wall so even if they had the option of using them they probably wouldn't.

    What you can see here is most likely Hollywood artistic license, wanting a weapon that looked extremely deadly while retaining the appearance of plausible historical accuracy.
    Bitter is the wind tonight,
    it stirs up the white-waved sea.
    I do not fear the coursing of the Irish sea
    by the fierce warriors of Lothlind.

  9. #9
    Manco's Avatar Dux Limitis
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Curtrycke
    Posts
    15,076

    Default Re: Would a Scottish warrior have used a falchion at the battle of Stirling Bridge?

    I'm not entirely certain we can still speak about a shield wall at this time in history, or really extrapolate from Anglo-Saxon metallurgy considering the large influx of Northern French (including Flemish).

    Regardless, I was under the impression units did not have uniformity, even in weapons.
    For example, taking the roughly contemporary example of Kortrijk/Courtrai, the Flemish main line as per the Oxford chest would have been armed with geldons (longish spears) but interspersed or behind them would be people carrying clubs, hatchets and especially the locally famous goedendag/godendac who'd finish off fallen horsemen and soldiers who got surrounded or pulled in the opposing line.
    I wouldn't be surprised falchions could serve a similar role.

    A particularly fine example of a falchion is the Medici falchion btw, proof these were not mere low grade weapons. That thing is too pretty to ever having been intended for combat I reckon.
    Some day I'll actually write all the reviews I keep promising...

  10. #10
    René Artois's Avatar Dux Limitis
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Wales
    Posts
    18,851

    Default Re: Would a Scottish warrior have used a falchion at the battle of Stirling Bridge?

    Quote Originally Posted by Manco View Post
    I'm not entirely certain we can still speak about a shield wall at this time in history, or really extrapolate from Anglo-Saxon metallurgy considering the large influx of Northern French (including Flemish).
    It was in response to the 'Dark Age Wales' section of the question. So roughly 5th-7th centuries.
    Bitter is the wind tonight,
    it stirs up the white-waved sea.
    I do not fear the coursing of the Irish sea
    by the fierce warriors of Lothlind.

  11. #11
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Call me Ishmael
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Posts
    15,243

    Default Re: Would a Scottish warrior have used a falchion at the battle of Stirling Bridge?

    Quote Originally Posted by Manco View Post
    I'm not entirely certain we can still speak about a shield wall at this time in history, or really extrapolate from Anglo-Saxon metallurgy considering the large influx of Northern French (including Flemish).
    The Chronicle of Lanercost (which was compiled from 1272 until about 1346) speaks of a wall of pikemen in the first line of Wallace's infantry at Falkirk, unlike at Stirling Bridge, which required no such defensive tactical formation to surround and rout the English cavalry. The chronicle then explains that the English cavalry was able to flank the pike formation and render its advantage useless. However, one should never put too much stock into this chronicle and others of its time, given the ridiculously inflated numbers for Wallace's army that day (60,000+). We do, however, have a separate document that listed the amount of English cavalry horses felled that day as 111, which can give one an idea about the limited level of carnage, as well as the effectiveness of using pikes at this point in time.

    As for the Falchion, I don't know much about it so I am enjoying this rigorous discussion.

  12. #12
    Col. Tartleton's Avatar Comes Limitis
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Cape Ann
    Posts
    13,053

    Default Re: Would a Scottish warrior have used a falchion at the battle of Stirling Bridge?

    Quote Originally Posted by René Artois View Post
    Actually the Wal- part of Wallace comes from the Old English word for foreigner, as is Wales and other place names in Britain with Wal- at the beginning, e.g. Walton.
    Cymru, Cambria and Cumbria indeed have the same root as each other, but in Brythonic for countrymen. With Cumbria it shows how within Post-Roman Britain, the area was not brought under Anglo-Saxon rule until later than other areas of England, as the Celtic name still survives.
    I know. The same old German term appears in the Vlachs of Romania. My point was that Cumbria is one of the British areas where the British held out as a distinct people. Cumbria was the British area of what is now Scotland akin to how Cambria is the British area of what is now England. Although its now England, Cumbria was Scottish in the early middle ages and remained part of the disputed borders until James I sorted them out and told both sides to go off because he was trying to seduce a bonnie young laird or something.

    I too have never seen any evidence of falchions in Post-Roman Britain, and it is unlikely they had the metal working skills to make such a weapon effective. Even Early Anglo-Saxon swords were rather poorly made, and mostly for show, as a symbol of power, rather than something capable of inflicting serious damage on somebody. Spears and shields would have been the weapons of choice for most. Plus you need to consider that a falchion would not have been very useful in a shield wall so even if they had the option of using them they probably wouldn't.

    What you can see here is most likely Hollywood artistic license, wanting a weapon that looked extremely deadly while retaining the appearance of plausible historical accuracy.
    Yeah I mean it's not exactly ridiculous, its just almost certainly anachronistic.
    The Earth is inhabited by billions of idiots.
    The search for intelligent life continues...

  13. #13

    Default Re: Would a Scottish warrior have used a falchion at the battle of Stirling Bridge?


    A play about Wallace at Stirling Bridge by Charles Waddie which mentions falchions:
    "Wishart: Aye she's a chance if we have souls as great
    As animated once our father's clay,
    When Scotland once had a race of valiant kings
    And all her nobles with their glittering arms
    Tended the court of Mars.
    But now, like lambs before the cunning fox,
    Or as the dove before the falcon flies,
    We have no courage; and our beards do shame us.
    Fraser: I yet for Scotland have a falchion keen.
    Wishhart: And I will don the livery of war,
    And stain the fetlocks of my steed in blood,
    For such a noble cause."

    How stirring and compelling. The play was created in 1859.

    Then there's this poem by David Doig 1796 about William Wallace
    http://books.google.com/books?id=GYB...irling&f=false

    With one pure pure patriot flame, our bosoms burn'd,
    Our souls congenial, sloth, and slavery spurn'd
    With him, I brav'd proud Factions high disdain,
    The scorn of envious Peers, a venal train.
    With him on Carron's banks, when all was lost,
    I stem'd the impetuous rage of Edward's host.
    Great was the Hero's fall, when squadron's round,
    Mow'd by his well try'd falchion strew'd the ground,
    Trice blest'd his envy'd fall, maturely dead,
    Fresh laurels blooming round his sacred head!

    Here's some verse from Sir Walter Scott's Lord of the Isles (1815) about Bruce at Bannockburn
    "Now like a prophet's fiery chair,
    Seem'd traveling the realms of air,
    Wide o'er the sky the splendour grows,
    As that portentous meteor rose;
    Helm, axe, and falchion glitter'd bright,
    And in the red and dusky light,
    His comrade's face each warrior saw,
    Nor marvel'd it was pale with awe.
    Then high in air the beams were lost,
    And darkness sunk upon the coast.



    Last edited by RubiconDecision; April 19, 2014 at 12:46 AM.

  14. #14
    René Artois's Avatar Dux Limitis
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Wales
    Posts
    18,851

    Default Re: Would a Scottish warrior have used a falchion at the battle of Stirling Bridge?

    Quote Originally Posted by Col. Tartleton View Post
    I know. The same old German term appears in the Vlachs of Romania. My point was that Cumbria is one of the British areas where the British held out as a distinct people. Cumbria was the British area of what is now Scotland akin to how Cambria is the British area of what is now England. Although its now England, Cumbria was Scottish in the early middle ages and remained part of the disputed borders until James I sorted them out and told both sides to go off because he was trying to seduce a bonnie young laird or something.
    You sort of have a point, though the differences between Wales and England, and Cumbria and Scotland are too numerous to make the comparison of any use. By the 7th century Cumbria was English, i.e. it was under English control, part of Northumbria, and in the next few centuries there was also a lot of Scandinavian influence (as with Lancashire). So basically you can see it as a melting pot of British, Anglo-Saxon, and Scandinavian (Norwegian).

    Basically, the origins of the name does not necessarily represent how much British culture was retained, as with Kent, which kept its Iron Age name despite being one of the first areas taken over by Romans, then Anglo-Saxons (specifically Jutes if memory serves), then the Normans.
    Bitter is the wind tonight,
    it stirs up the white-waved sea.
    I do not fear the coursing of the Irish sea
    by the fierce warriors of Lothlind.

  15. #15
    Col. Tartleton's Avatar Comes Limitis
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Cape Ann
    Posts
    13,053

    Default Re: Would a Scottish warrior have used a falchion at the battle of Stirling Bridge?

    Well I'd argue that Scotland was English by the 7th century as well, but everyone wants them to be blue woad raiders because they were cool in AOE.
    The Earth is inhabited by billions of idiots.
    The search for intelligent life continues...

  16. #16

    Default Re: Would a Scottish warrior have used a falchion at the battle of Stirling Bridge?

    Quote Originally Posted by RubiconDecision View Post
    I'm in the midst of watching Braveheart again. I was paying closer attention to the falchions wielded by several of them. I know that they were utilized by some soldiers, considered a lesser weapon, perhaps lower quality steel, but did the Scots actually use them during that period (Stirling Bridge 1297)? Would blood grooves (fullers) have been part of the falchion at this time in history in Scotland?

    Blood grooves are added for thrusting weapons to enhance bleeding, but as you can see the blood groove doesn't go all the way, nor does it look like a thrusting weapon, so I'm thinking those are not blood grooves at all.
    I signed up with the sole purpose of telling you that this is a myth and obviously so. The purpose of a fuller is to lighten the blade without losing strength. Glad I could scratch that itch.

  17. #17
    paleologos's Avatar You need burrito love!!
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Variable
    Posts
    8,496

    Default Re: Would a Scottish warrior have used a falchion at the battle of Stirling Bridge?

    Quote Originally Posted by LaochCailiuil View Post
    I signed up with the sole purpose of telling you that this is a myth and obviously so. The purpose of a fuller is to lighten the blade without losing strength. Glad I could scratch that itch.
    Yeah well, many of us already know that but thanks anyway.
    The thing is that the last time RubiconDecision posted anything was November 03, 2016, so I doubt he will benefit from this nugget of wisdom.
    I hope you join the community.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Would a Scottish warrior have used a falchion at the battle of Stirling Bridge?

    Quote Originally Posted by paleologos View Post
    Yeah well, many of us already know that but thanks anyway.
    The thing is that the last time RubiconDecision posted anything was November 03, 2016, so I doubt he will benefit from this nugget of wisdom.
    I hope you join the community.
    Given the ridiculous propaganda retorts about those of Japanese ancestry, and the faux historical nonsense comparing Japanese from the late medieval period to events more than 300 years later, then is it any wonder why some Asians don't post anymore?
    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dict...blood%20groove
    Fullers is the more technical name for blood grooves and even Merriam Webster persists in describing them as I did in the original post.

  19. #19
    paleologos's Avatar You need burrito love!!
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Variable
    Posts
    8,496

    Default Re: Would a Scottish warrior have used a falchion at the battle of Stirling Bridge?

    Haters are gonna hate, you don't need to mind them.
    Merriam Webster is not a swordsmith.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Would a Scottish warrior have used a falchion at the battle of Stirling Bridge?

    The blood groove isn't to let the blood out because the idea of swords getting stuck is built on faulty science.

    The idea is that the sword gets stuck due to differences in pressure inside the body and outside. So you can't pull the sword out for the same reason you can't open doors on a plane very easily. The thing is, the body isn't a closed system. It doesn't have a fixed pressure and holes punched in people are very rarely "clean". If you get stabbed, the hole will not perfectly fit around the sword. Also, how do halberds work with their spike on the top?


    Suppose this was right, why don't more thrusting orientated swords have fullers? Khyber knives are a good example, as is the larger sword sized equivalent. I quickly looked up some antique katanas and couldn't see a fuller in most of them. Hopefully a kenjutsu practitioner will be able to tell me if thrusts are a part of using a katana, I've just assumed they are.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •