Divinity of Christ

[Cyrene]

According to most Christians, Jesus was God-incarnate, full man and full God. Can the finite and the infinite be one? "To be full" God means freedom from finite forms and from helplessness, and to be "full man" means the absence of divinity.


1.To be son is to be less than divine and to be divine is to be no one’s son. How could Jesus have the attributes of sonship and divinity altogether?

2.Christians assert that Jesus claimed to be God when they quote him in John 14:9: "He that has seen me has seen the Father". Didn’t Jesus clearly say that people have never seen God, as it says in John 5:37: "And the father himself which Has sent me, has borne witness of me. You have Neither heard his voice at any time nor seen his shape"?

3.Christians say that Jesus was God because he was called Son of God, Son of Man, Messiah, and "savior". Ezekiel was addressed in the Bible as Son of Man. Jesus spoke of "the peace makers" as Sons of God. Any person who followed the Will and Plan of God was called SON OF GOD in the Jewish tradition and in their language (Genesis 6:2,4; Exodus 4:22; Psalm 2:7; Romans 8:14). "Messiah" which in Hebrew means "God’s anointed" and not "Christ", and "Cyrus" the person is called "Messiah" or "the anointed". As for "savior", in II KINGS 13:5, other individuals were given that title too without being gods. So where is the proof in these terms that Jesus was God when the word son is not exclusively used for him alone?

4.Christians claim that Jesus acknowledged that he and God were one in the sense of nature when he says in John 10:30 "I and my father are one". Later on in John 17:21-23, Jesus refers to his followers and himself and God as one in five places. So why did they give the previous "one" a different meaning from the other five "ones?

5.Is God three-in-one and one in three simultaneously or one at a time?

6.If God is one and three simultaneously, then none of the three could be the complete God. Granting that such was the case, then when Jesus was on earth, he wasn’t a complete God, nor was the "father in Heaven" a whole God. Doesn’t that contradict what Jesus always said about His God and our God in heaven, his Lord and our Lord ? Does that also mean that there was no complete god then, between the claimed crucifixion and the claimed resurrection?

7.If God is one and three at a time, then who was the God in heaven when Jesus was on earth? Wouldn’t this contradict his many references to a God in Heaven that sent him?

8.If God is three and one at the same time, who was the God in Heaven within three days between the claimed crucifixion and the claimed resurrect ion?

9.Christians say that: "The Father(F) is God, the Son(S) is God, and the Holy Ghost(H) is God, but the Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Ghost, and the Holy Ghost is not the Father". In simple arithmetic and terms therefore, if F = G, S = G, and H = G, then it follows that F = S = H, while the second part of the statement suggests that F ¹ S ¹ H (meaning, "not equal"). Isn’t that a contradiction to the Christian dogma of Trinity in itself ?

10.If Jesus was God, why did he tell the man who called him "good master" not to call him "good" because accordingly, there is none good but his God in Heaven alone?

11.Why do Christians say that God is three-in-one and one in three when Jesus says in Mark 12:29: "The Lord our God is one Lord" in as many places as yet in the Bible?

12.If belief in the Trinity was such a necessary condition for being a Christian, why didn’t Jesus teach and emphasize it to the Christians during his time? How were those followers of Jesus considered Christians without ever hearing the term Trinity? Had the Trinity been the spinal cord of Christianity, Jesus would have emphasized it on many occasions and would have taught and explained it in detail to the people.

13.Christians claim that Jesus was God as they quote in John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God". This is John speaking and not Jesus. Also, the Greek word for the first occurrence of God is Hotheos which means "the God" or "God" with a capital "G", while the Greek word for its second occurrence is "Tontheos", which means "a god " or "god" with a small "g". Isn’t this dishonesty and inconsistency on the part of those translating the Greek Bible? ? Isn’t such quotation in John 1:1 recognized by every Christian scholar of the Bible to have been written by a Jew named Philo Alexandria way before Jesus and John?

14.Wasn’t the word "God" or "Tontheos" also used to refer to others as well as in II Corinthians 4:4 "(and the Devil is) the God of this world" and in Exodus 7:1 "See , I have made thee (Moses) a God to Pharaoh"?

Note: this thread is not intended to insult or offend any specific religion or group on this forum, it's just for general discussion regarding this subject.



Edit: this video i came across is about the Didache (The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles ) a book written even before the Canonized Gospels, the interesting thing about it is that it contains no Crucifixion or Resurrection, it also talks about Jesus as "the Servant of God".

[basics]

Cyrene,

When Jesus took up union with Mary's egg He already was God the Creator just as Gabriel indicated to Mary. In fact He was the " seed " prophesised by God to Adam and Eve in the garden at the fall of man. His name at creation was Elohim, a plural name, indicative of the three Persons involved in the making of all things so it is not as though He wasn't alluded to at the beginning. I say it was His Light that shone in the days before the sun, moon and stars came into being. John corroborates this by calling Him the Light of the world.

Now, when He came into the world as a human baby, with the brain of a human baby, He would have had to learn much over the years as a human until as a human He discovered His divine nature that coming as His brain being human identified the extraordinary powers He had. Remember the first priority was to be as human as any other human until His divine nature was called upon. By the time He was twelve it is fair to say it was at this time we are told that He began to realise His purpose from a human angle, the temple visit being that first sign to us.

" 1.To be son is to be less than divine and to be divine is to be no one’s son. How could Jesus have the attributes of sonship and divinity altogether?"

He is Son because He was to be the firstfruits in the family of God, the first of many who would be redeemed by Him and His blood at Calvary.

" 2.Christians assert that Jesus claimed to be God when they quote him in John 14:9: "He that has seen me has seen the Father". Didn’t Jesus clearly say that people have never seen God, as it says in John 5:37: "And the father himself which Has sent me, has borne witness of me. You have Neither heard his voice at any time nor seen his shape"?"

This is very true in that the Father is a blinding Light on whom no man may look and live. But in the Son men may look and live, John's vision making that perfectly clear. So, what the ancients saw was not the Father, but Jesus Christ examples being Melchizadec, Jacob wrestling with God, David seeing his Lord talking with the Lord etc.

" 3.Christians say that Jesus was God because he was called Son of God, Son of Man, Messiah, and "savior". Ezekiel was addressed in the Bible as Son of Man. Jesus spoke of "the peace makers" as Sons of God. Any person who followed the Will and Plan of God was called SON OF GOD in the Jewish tradition and in their language (Genesis 6:2,4; Exodus 4:22; Psalm 2:7; Romans 8:14). "Messiah" which in Hebrew means "God’s anointed" and not "Christ", and "Cyrus" the person is called "Messiah" or "the anointed". As for "savior", in II KINGS 13:5, other individuals were given that title too without being gods. So where is the proof in these terms that Jesus was God when the word son is not exclusively used for him alone?"

Over one hundred times is the name Rock given in the Old Covenant and all refer to Jesus as being God, Saviour, One who would die for His people on a cross that the thing that separated them from God would be taken away, this being repeated by Prophet after Prophet. It is repeated in the New Testament not quite so often because the New Testament is testimony to Him actually being God as each writer confirms.

" 4.Christians claim that Jesus acknowledged that he and God were one in the sense of nature when he says in John 10:30 "I and my father are one". Later on in John 17:21-23, Jesus refers to his followers and himself and God as one in five places. So why did they give the previous "one" a different meaning from the other five "ones?"

Because in the first He declares that He was always with the Father as one God and in the second lots He is referring to the new state His followers on believing in Him and being born again are in a new relationship altogether, one that they never knew of before.

" 5.Is God three-in-one and one in three simultaneously or one at a time?"

There is but One God displaying three Personalities capable of acting independently with no disputation in thought or deed between them. In other words each has the same mind and objective that can never be broken.

" 6.If God is one and three simultaneously, then none of the three could be the complete God. Granting that such was the case, then when Jesus was on earth, he wasn’t a complete God, nor was the "father in Heaven" a whole God. Doesn’t that contradict what Jesus always said about His God and our God in heaven, his Lord and our Lord ? Does that also mean that there was no complete god then, between the claimed crucifixion and the claimed resurrection?"

Now your being silly. As I said, each can act independently but none can act in opposition to the other, why? Because they are One God. They have the same objectives all relating to the righteousness that makes them One God.

" 7.If God is one and three at a time, then who was the God in heaven when Jesus was on earth? Wouldn’t this contradict his many references to a God in Heaven that sent him?"

God being Father, Son and Holy Spirit having the capability that you would deny Him is perfectly capable of being on the throne in heaven whilst His Spirit searches out the people destined to be called into His grace. Quite rightly when on earth Jesus never forgot by whom He was sent and rightly praised His Father at every opportunity. Now He sits at the Father's right hand, why? Because the right hand denotes strength and power.

" 8.If God is three and one at the same time, who was the God in Heaven within three days between the claimed crucifixion and the claimed resurrect ion?"

The claimed crucifixion? Did the Romans lie? The Father was in heaven, still the blinding Light that no man can look upon and live.

" 9.Christians say that: "The Father(F) is God, the Son(S) is God, and the Holy Ghost(H) is God, but the Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Ghost, and the Holy Ghost is not the Father". In simple arithmetic and terms therefore, if F = G, S = G, and H = G, then it follows that F = S = H, while the second part of the statement suggests that F ¹ S ¹ H (meaning, "not equal"). Isn’t that a contradiction to the Christian dogma of Trinity in itself ?"

Wrong! The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are One and so they must even in their separate names be God. But let's look at this from another angle, one that should concern you greatly. Since it is Jesus who is coming to judge all things and only God can judge all things, then who is Jesus but God? The very Person that you deny is coming to judge you on your beliefs so try mathematically to get out of that one.

" 10.If Jesus was God, why did he tell the man who called him "good master" not to call him "good" because accordingly, there is none good but his God in Heaven alone?"

Got the wording wrong but what the heck everything else is wrong. Jesus flung out to that man two suggestions here, one that there is none good but God and two, if He was indeed good as we know He was then could it not be said that He is God?

" 11.Why do Christians say that God is three-in-one and one in three when Jesus says in Mark 12:29: "The Lord our God is one Lord" in as many places as yet in the Bible?"

Because God is One, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, the Elohim (plural) who created us in the first place.

" 12.If belief in the Trinity was such a necessary condition for being a Christian, why didn’t Jesus teach and emphasize it to the Christians during his time? How were those followers of Jesus considered Christians without ever hearing the term Trinity? Had the Trinity been the spinal cord of Christianity, Jesus would have emphasized it on many occasions and would have taught and explained it in detail to the people."

From the first people knew of the Trinity examples being that within all the so-called religions each had their own version of who that trinity was. Funnily enough the major opposition to the Trinity came from Israel itself, Jesus having to explain to one of its leaders the need to be born again of the Spirit of God of whom He said was everywhere seeking out people with that object in mind. Now if that is not an example of God being in three places, I don't know what is.

" 13.Christians claim that Jesus was God as they quote in John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God". This is John speaking and not Jesus. Also, the Greek word for the first occurrence of God is Hotheos which means "the God" or "God" with a capital "G", while the Greek word for its second occurrence is "Tontheos", which means "a god " or "god" with a small "g". Isn’t this dishonesty and inconsistency on the part of those translating the Greek Bible? ? Isn’t such quotation in John 1:1 recognized by every Christian scholar of the Bible to have been written by a Jew named Philo Alexandria way before Jesus and John?"

I fail to see how this man you quote as being able to call Jesus God before Jesus' time on earth. Nonetheless, Jesus is God, not a god, but Almighty God, the Alpha and Omega. He saves people from their sin, not after death but before they die as after death a sinner is still a sinner and cannot enter heaven. Now you should go away and consider these things very carefully because Mohammed is not going to be of any help there as he himself admits. Jesus, not Mohammed, is your Judge and His judgement will be based on your beliefs now so how about that?

" 14.Wasn’t the word "God" or "Tontheos" also used to refer to others as well as in II Corinthians 4:4 "(and the Devil is) the God of this world" and in Exodus 7:1 "See , I have made thee (Moses) a God to Pharaoh"?"

Well, if people cannot differentiate between God Almighty and them who think themselves gods or are called such does that really take anything away from the claims of Jesus Christ as given by Him and all the prophets of Old? Funny how it is to the silly religions that Paul talks of as being inspired by angelic intervention, it is them that speak the most wild things of Jesus Christ.

To finish may I say that I could easily have been offended but not offended enough to go out and kill someone as the followers of Mohammed are wont to do on the slightest pretext. I have answered you point by point where the points were justifiable, otherwise if I have missed anything, it is because one or two questions may well have been enough and not the continually same question time and time again.

PS Love the caption about no Muslim committing violence.

[Cyrene]

Cyrene,

When Jesus took up union with Mary's egg He already was God the Creator just as Gabriel indicated to Mary. In fact He was the " seed " prophesised by God to Adam and Eve in the garden at the fall of man.

i fail to find in Genesis God Promising of a seed, and if it was there, what were the descriptions or characteristics of this "seed" which made you certain that it was Jesus.

His name at creation was Elohim, a plural name, indicative of the three Persons involved in the making of all things so it is not as though He wasn't alluded to at the beginning. I say it was His Light that shone in the days before the sun, moon and stars came into being. John corroborates this by calling Him the Light of the world.

In most eastern languages, there are two types of plurals: plural of numbers and plural of respect. In the Quran, God speaks of Himself as "us" and "we" too. Yet in those verses no Muslim will ever doubt that God is referring to Himself alone. Even in old English, the King or the Queen would use such plurals for themselves alone. An objective inquiry from Jewish scholars, whose book the Old Testament is, will reveal the same. Also, modern translators recognize this and therefore translate the word Elohim in the Old Testament as God and not Gods even though it is a plural. I have never seen a Bible with the word Elohim translated as "Gods". It is a plural of respect, it doesn't signify the Trinity.

Now, when He came into the world as a human baby, with the brain of a human baby, He would have had to learn much over the years as a human until as a human He discovered His divine nature that coming as His brain being human identified the extraordinary powers He had. Remember the first priority was to be as human as any other human until His divine nature was called upon. By the time He was twelve it is fair to say it was at this time we are told that He began to realise His purpose from a human angle, the temple visit being that first sign to us.

did you get this explanation from the Bible itself? a certain no.

God has the knowledge of all things he doesn't need to be born with a human brain (far exalted he from that), someone can raise a point here and say " why wasn't he born with the knowledge he had in the heavens to back his claims and answer those who ask him."

"To be son is to be less than divine and to be divine is to be no one’s son. How could Jesus have the attributes of sonship and divinity altogether?"

He is Son because He was to be the first fruits in the family of God, the first of many who would be redeemed by Him and His blood at Calvary.

we don't need blood for God to forgive us, there is something called repentance, i wonder if the one who first said this thing ever heard of it. we need to repent to God and plead to him to forgive us, another point, why are we responsible for what Adam and Eve had done? as the Quran says: "no bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another" "and God is not Injustice to his Worshipers"

"Is God three-in-one and one in three simultaneously or one at a time?"

There is but One God displaying three Personalities capable of acting independently with no disputation in thought or deed between them. In other words each has the same mind and objective that can never be broken.

Why does God need three personalities? God is God, not a man or an angel..

"If God is one and three simultaneously, then none of the three could be the complete God. Granting that such was the case, then when Jesus was on earth, he wasn’t a complete God, nor was the "father in Heaven" a whole God. Doesn’t that contradict what Jesus always said about His God and our God in heaven, his Lord and our Lord ? Does that also mean that there was no complete god then, between the claimed crucifixion and the claimed resurrection?"

Now your being silly. As I said, each can act independently but none can act in opposition to the other, why? Because they are One God. They have the same objectives all relating to the righteousness that makes them One God.

"Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son," (John 5:22)

"Since you call on a Father who judges each man's work impartially," (Peter 1:17)

the first verse says that the father will leave all judgements to his son, but hey, you said that you worship one God, How can a person say" i will not judge anyone, that's because i left the judgement for myself".

Now the father Contradicts himself.

"If God is three and one at the same time, who was the God in Heaven within three days between the claimed crucifixion and the claimed resurrect ion?"

The claimed crucifixion? Did the Romans lie? The Father was in heaven, still the blinding Light that no man can look upon and live.

no the Romans did not lie, a Crucifixion did happen but who was the one Crucified? i'll let both the Bible and the Quran explain this:

"10 For the Scriptures say, ‘He will order his angels to protect and guard you.
11 And they will hold you up with their hands so you won’t even hurt your foot on a stone.
12 Jesus responded, “The Scriptures also say, ‘You must not test the Lord your God." (Luke 4:10-12)

Psalm 91 is not just limited to the foot striking the rock:God Almighty will hear his cries (Psalm 91:15) and will save him (Psalm 91:3).

God Almighty will cover him with His Protection (Psalm 91:4).

Christ will then not have any fear in him (Psalm 91:5).

Christ will then observe with his own eyes the punishment of the crucified ones (Psalm 91:8).

No harm (this includes crucifixion!) or disaster will even come near Christ (Psalm 91:10) this even contradicts him getting beaten up before crucifixion.

God Almighty will send down the Angels to protect him and lift him (Psalm 91:11-12, 14, Isaiah 52:13). Not even his foot will strike the ground from his enemies pushing, grappling and punishment.

Christ's call will be Heard, and he will be delivered and honored (Psalm 91:15, Isaiah 52:13). No way would these verses be valid if Christ got crucified.

the Quran:

"And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, God's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain"

"Behold! God said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to myself and clear thee (of the falsehood) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject Faith, to the Day of Resurrection: then shall ye all return unto Me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute."

"If Jesus was God, why did he tell the man who called him "good master" not to call him "good" because accordingly, there is none good but his God in Heaven alone?"

Got the wording wrong but what the heck everything else is wrong. Jesus flung out to that man two suggestions here, one that there is none good but God and two, if He was indeed good as we know He was then could it not be said that He is God?

if he was God he wouldn't deny he was good as he said: "Why do you call me Good?" here he clearly says that he is not good as God.

Now you should go away and consider these things very carefully because Mohammed is not going to be of any help there as he himself admits.

I worship God not Prophet Muhammad, and he said that he will Intercede to get the muslims who had Commited many sins out of hell and into Heaven:

"God gave me the option of choosing between the power of intercession or having half of my Community admitted to Paradise without any reckoning. I chose the power of intercession because that is more important and will be more useful. Do you assume that my intercession is for the pious Muslims? No, on the contrary, it is for those sinners who are steeped in sins and have committed grave crimes."

"My intercession is for those among my Community who have been destroyed by sins!”

this verse of the Quran sums up who is our real judge:

"And when God saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Didst thou say unto mankind: Take me and my mother for two gods beside God? he saith: Be glorified! It was not mine to utter that to which I had no right. If I used to say it, then Thou knewest it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy Mind. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Knower of Things Hidden?"

To finish may I say that I could easily have been offended but not offended enough to go out and kill someone as the followers of Mohammed are wont to do on the slightest pretext. I have answered you point by point where the points were justifiable, otherwise if I have missed anything, it is because one or two questions may well have been enough and not the continually same question time and time again.

where does the prophet say to kill everyone who offends you...

you won't find anything because such things do not exist in Islam, now can we say that Jesus (PBUH) said to his followers to butcher every living muslim and jew in Jerusalem?

every religion has it's own maniacs..

PS Love the caption about no Muslim committing violence.

Thank you

[Euphoric]

You two should co-op a book.

[basics]

" i fail to find in Genesis God Promising of a seed, and if it was there, what were the descriptions or characteristics of this "seed" which made you certain that it was Jesus."

Cyrene,

Try Genesis 3:15.

" In most eastern languages, there are two types of plurals: plural of numbers and plural of respect. In the Quran, God speaks of Himself as "us" and "we" too. Yet in those verses no Muslim will ever doubt that God is referring to Himself alone. Even in old English, the King or the Queen would use such plurals for themselves alone. An objective inquiry from Jewish scholars, whose book the Old Testament is, will reveal the same. Also, modern translators recognize this and therefore translate the word Elohim in the Old Testament as God and not Gods even though it is a plural. I have never seen a Bible with the word Elohim translated as "Gods". It is a plural of respect, it doesn't signify the Trinity."

But we are not talking of the Koran here but of the initial books of how we came to be as dictated by God to Moses. The word does not mean gods and how could it since there is only one God. But it does refer to the plurality of the Persons that God is composed of.

" did you get this explanation from the Bible itself? a certain no."

Well, that depends on what you are likely to see in a new born and growing human baby. As a father I can remember the stages that my own went through and therefore can imagine Mary and Joseph seeing the same in Jesus. Of course Mary and Joseph knew where this baby came from as they were told by Gabriel but whether Jesus was appreciative at that time is quite another matter that you seem to want to contend over.

" God has the knowledge of all things he doesn't need to be born with a human brain (far exalted he from that), someone can raise a point here and say " why wasn't he born with the knowledge he had in the heavens to back his claims and answer those who ask him."

Again, as He grew He could only do so with a brain such as humans have because His Father in heaven is a blinding Light that no man may look upon and live. Now I don't know about you but I cannot imagine a blinding Light having a brain suitable for being human meaning that the human entity was enough in the will of God.

" we don't need blood for God to forgive us, there is something called repentance, i wonder if the one who first said this thing ever heard of it. we need to repent to God and plead to him to forgive us, another point, why are we responsible for what Adam and Eve had done? as the Quran says: "no bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another" "and God is not Injustice to his Worshipers"

Really? The price of sin being blood corroborated by the Law, Moses or natural, Mohammed recognising this places his emphasis on mercy. Now why does a Muslim need mercy? Why do they need to work their socks off to appease a merciful God when it is known that no sinner can ever enter heaven? Sin has to be dealt with before death, not after, because after is too late. That is why the blood of Jesus Christ is so important to you and yet you can't see it.

" Why does God need three personalities? God is God, not a man or an angel.."

Surprisingly I could say that you have multiple personalities, probably more than God. The thing is that God being God in His wisdom and will does have three. It's all He needs unlike you because unlike you He has complete control of Himself in each of His aspects whereas you don't in any of yours since you never know how you're going to act or react at any time. God in any of His personalities does not have that problem.

"If God is three and one at the same time, who was the God in Heaven within three days between the claimed crucifixion and the claimed resurrect ion?"

When the Lord Jesus Christ went on that cross what was the prophecy in the garden and the sayings of the Prophets was about to come to pass. In effect, Jesus became sin. He became sin by standing in as the substitute for all them that He was ordained to die for, and so, the Father in heaven had but one object in that He must deal with that sin as represented in Christ on that tree. So, the wrath of God was poured onto the Substitute until every bit of sin was eradicated from off them and from the mind of God that they had ever been sinners. God was always in control.

" Christ's call will be Heard, and he will be delivered and honored (Psalm 91:15, Isaiah 52:13). No way would these verses be valid if Christ got crucified."

You completely miss the point here. He became sin. At which point that happened is not important, what is though is that in becoming sin the Father had to deal with that. He was delivered in that He was resurrected and now sits at the Father's right hand waiting to come again to judge all you who deny who He is.

" if he was God he wouldn't deny he was good as he said: "Why do you call me Good?" here he clearly says that he is not good as God."

Once again you miss the point. Clearly when He said, " only God is good " He was testing the man's thoughts as to what he, the man, thought of Him. Did He not ask the disciples who the people thought He was and then ask them who they personally thought He was, the two answers being different, why? Because God had put the answer of the disciples directly into the mouth of Peter who had answered that He was the Christ, the Son of the living God. That's the difference between the Godly and them that only think they are.

" I worship God not Prophet Muhammad, and he said that he will Intercede to get the muslims who had Commited many sins out of hell and into Heaven:"

Well, if you worship God the Bible should be sufficient for you, why? Because the man you call a prophet of God tells us in the Bible that once a man is in Hell he cannot be extracted from that situation until judgement day comes wherein then he is sent into eternal torment. Yes, the very same Prophet who is going to come to judge you. None other than the Lord Jesus Christ Himself and when He does every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, God without exception.

" where does the prophet say to kill everyone who offends you..."

Come on, all across this globe Muslims are killing people just because they are not Muslim.

" you won't find anything because such things do not exist in Islam, now can we say that Jesus (PBUH) said to his followers to butcher every living muslim and jew in Jerusalem?"

Really! Then perhaps I'd better fling out my TV. Were there Muslims living in Jerusalem at the time of Jesus? As far as I'm aware Islam came to Jerusalem by the sword many centuries later and certainly not by the word or inclination of Jesus Christ.

" every religion has it's own maniacs.."

Indeed it does but there is one common thread that runs through them all. They are all dominated by the Old Testament and not the New Testament in His blood that Jesus brought into being by His death at the cross and the reality it brought by His resurrection three days later.

[Cyrene]

Try Genesis 3:15.

"And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel.”

just as i thought..

you tightened the meaning of the verse be throwing it at Jesus,

what were the descriptions or characteristics of this "seed" which made you certain that it was Jesus

But we are not talking of the Koran here but of the initial books of how we came to be as dictated by God to Moses. The word does not mean gods and how could it since there is only one God. But it does refer to the plurality of the Persons that God is composed of.

for God's Sake, there is NOTHING plural about God, heck even the trinity does not have a place in the early Church, The historical record is overwhelming that the church of the first three centuries did not worship God as a coequal, coeternal, consubstantial, one-substance three in one mysterious godhead. The early church worshipped one God and believed in a subordinate Son. The trinity originated with Babylon, and was passed on to most of the world's religions. it was intertwined with Greek religion and philosophy and slowly worked its way into Christian thought and creeds some 300 years after Christ. The idea of "God the Son" is Babylonian paganism and mythology that was grafted into Christianity. Worshipping "God the Son" is idolatry, and idolatry is Biblically condemned, Then three centuries after Christ the roman Constantine forced the minority opinion of the trinity upon the council of Nicea. The Christian church went downward from there; in fact some of the creeds and councils actually contradict each other. The council of Nicea 325 said that "Jesus Christ is God," the council of Constantinople 381 said that "the Holy Spirit is God," the council of Ephesus 431 said that "human beings are totally depraved," the council of Chalcedon 451 said that "Jesus Christ is both man and God." If you follow the logic here then first you have Jesus Christ as God, then you have man totally depraved, and then you have Jesus Christ as man and God. If Jesus Christ is both man and God does this mean that God is also totally depraved? Well maybe the doctrine of the coequal, coeternal, one-substance, mysterious three in one triune godhead is deprived of any historical foundation tying it into the Christianity of the Bible and the Christianity of the first three centuries. However the historical information ties the trinity into various pagan origins.

Really? The price of sin being blood corroborated by the Law, Moses or natural, Mohammed recognising this places his emphasis on mercy. Now why does a Muslim need mercy? Why do they need to work their socks off to appease a merciful God when it is known that no sinner can ever enter heaven? Sin has to be dealt with before death, not after, because after is too late. That is why the blood of Jesus Christ is so important to you and yet you can't see it.

Paul claimed that God Almighty had created mankind inherently sinful and as inheritors of "the sin of Adam." He claimed that this hereditary burden was so great that the creator of all of the heavens and earth, and yes, the creator of the concepts of sin and forgiveness themselves, could not forgive this sin. This, in Paul's estimation, was beyond God's capabilities. Paul preached that the only way the creator of the heavens and the earth and everything in-between could forgive this sin was to have his sinless "only begotten son" beaten, spat on, stripped, whipped, cut, humiliated, and finally killed in the most gruesome and drawn-out way known to man at the time; by hanging on the cross, and thus becoming a curse upon mankind.


"Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that hangeth on a tree" Galatians 3:13:


Only then would God be able to forgive this sin.

However, if we were to read the words of Jesus (pbuh) in Mark 2:9 we would find that Jesus (pbuh) informs us that for him to tell a man that his sins are forgiven is much easier than to cure a paralytic and cause him to walk, and since Jesus (pbuh) had the power to cure paralytics, therefore, he demonstrates to us that forgiving sins is much easier for him.Jesus (pbuh) can forgive sins with the utmost ease simply by uttering the words "your sins are forgiven you," then it is well within the ability of God Almighty Himself to do the same simply by willing it, even without uttering a word. Indeed, we can even read in the Bible:


"Nevertheless, He (God), [being] full of compassion, forgave [their] iniquity, and destroyed [them] not: yea, many a time turned He His anger away, and did not stir up all his wrath. For He remembered that they [were but] flesh; a wind that passeth away, and cometh not again."

"If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land."

Once again you miss the point. Clearly when He said, " only God is good " He was testing the man's thoughts as to what he, the man, thought of Him. Did He not ask the disciples who the people thought He was and then ask them who they personally thought He was, the two answers being different, why? Because God had put the answer of the disciples directly into the mouth of Peter who had answered that He was the Christ, the Son of the living God. That's the difference between the Godly and them that only think they are.

was he testing again his followers when he said " He is my refuge and my fortress, My God, in whom I trust" ​this indisputably tears down ALL divinity of Christ...

Come on, all across this globe Muslims are killing people just because they are not Muslim.

well, the verses in the Quran and the hadiths of the prophet deny such acts, what is happening now is violating them, therefore they are not responsible for them.

As far as I'm aware Islam came to Jerusalem by the sword many centuries later and certainly not by the word or inclination of Jesus Christ.

no blood was spilled in Jerusalem in 637 AD, it was given to the Caliph by Patriarch Sophronius who was in charge of the city, and as the Muslims did with many cities they conquered, they signed a treaty with it's people,

The text of the treaty reads:

"In the name of God, the Merciful, the Compassionate. This is the assurance of safety which the servant of God, Umar, the Commander of the Faithful, has given to the people of Jerusalem. He has given them an assurance of safety for themselves for their property, their churches, their crosses, the sick and healthy of the city and for all the rituals which belong to their religion. Their churches will not be inhabited by Muslims and will not be destroyed. Neither they, nor the land on which they stand, nor their cross, nor their property will be damaged. They will not be forcibly converted"

God is your Saviour, no one else, please take the chance and repent to your true God, the one who is to judge you eventually, and the one who Christ himself called his God.

"O People of the Scripture, there has come to you Our Messenger making clear to you much of what you used to conceal of the Scripture and overlooking much. There has come to you from God a light and a clear Book,By which God guides those who pursue His pleasure to the ways of peace and brings them out from darknesses into the light by His permission, and guides them to a straight path"

"They have certainly disbelieved who say that God is Christ, the son of Mary. Say, "Then who could prevent God at all if He had intended to destroy Christ, the son of Mary, or his mother or everyone on the earth?" And to God belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and whatever is between them, He creates what He wills, and God is over all things competent"

"But the Jews and the Christians say, "We are the children of God and His beloved." Say, "Then why does He punish you for your sins?" Rather, you are human beings from among those He has created. He forgives whom He wills, and He punishes whom He wills. And to God belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and whatever is between them, and to Him is the [final] destination"

[basics]

Cyrene,

It is quite clear that we are never going to agree so perhaps it should be put to rest once and for all with one last effort on my part. I don't know whether you have heard or read about the Israeli mathematicians who have discovered inside the Old Testament certain encoded names referring to Him that you deny? Yes the name of Jesus comes up as being Messias over and over and these guys were and are not Christian.

Not only that but how He would die as well as His birthplace, His mother and Father's names being there also and much of this in two or three verses of Isaiah, thousands of years before He was born and killed. Not only that but the names of all His disciples are in the same passages plus the names of the priests who had Him killed. Having read and you-tubed about these finds, it leaves me in no doubt that my Bible is perfectly correct and has to be for the mathematical probabilities of what's been discovered corroborating the written word as it is seen.

However, regardless of all that, when judgement comes it will be this Jesus of Nazareth who will judge you and since only God can judge I'll leave you to ponder that one.

[Cyrene]

yeah, as far as i know they only claimed to discover his name, and other things like " Jesus is my Name " etc. and those who discovered it are Messianic Jews...

You may remember Bible Codes/Torah Codes from their heyday about 15 years ago, Using computers and a simple set of algorithms, enterprising researchers found that every 14th letter in, I don’t know, the book of Habakkuk, spelled out the name of this or that important rabbi, politician or event. The data is cleverly mapped on a matrix, impressing upon the reader the supernatural nature of the Bible. One reason that Bible Codes have gone out of fashion is that mathematicians and statisticians have thoroughly, completely and convincingly disproved them. For example, Barry Simon of the Caltech mathematics department has shown that any sufficiently large text will have similar letter patterns in it. Famously, the same algorithms used in the Bible Codes yielded similarly “prophetic” results when used on Hebrew translations of “War and Peace.”

about two decades ago Michael Drosnin (who wrote a book on the subject) challenged critics to find the same “prophecy” regarding the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin in “Moby Dick” as Bible Codes folks had found in the Bible, Australian computer scientist Brendan McKay did just that, and for good measure he found letter arrangements predicting the assassinations of Trotsky, Gandhi and Martin Luther King, Jr.


In other words, the Bible Codes are bunk. sorry for the disappointment...

anyways, let's agree to disagree my friend, and may God bless us all

[Nesimî]

May peace and blessings of Allah be upon Arius.

[LestaT]

In most eastern languages, there are two types of plurals: plural of numbers and plural of respect.

I don't think just eastern languages. I've have even heard the Queen of England address herself as we instead of I. I think royalties speaks that way too.

[RubiconDecision]

Why not change the title of the topic so people know what you're asking versus a generic question that doesn't imply your intent for being an apologist for Islam. It's not a criticism, but likely more people would look at the topic or participate if they know what the topic is about. Otherwise we'd have lots of generic nondescriptive topics.

Raising awareness about spiritual systems or atheism is a good thing for the community in my opinion. Unless we truly understand the viewpoints of believers or nonbelievers then we cannot begin to understand a person much less a group of very diverse people.

Are you a proponent of saying God versus Allah and is it possible that the Abrahamic faith traditions or simply a very weak believer...all believe in the same God? If so, how would you reconcile that with the Quran versus the Old Testament or the New Testament? They cannot all be right, so how can we assume we all worship the same God?

[Cyrene]

I don't think just eastern languages. I've have even heard the Queen of England address herself as we instead of I. I think royalties speaks that way too.

yep, as i already said in my second post

Even in old English, the King or the Queen would use such plurals for themselves alone.

Are you a proponent of saying God versus Allah and is it possible that the Abrahamic faith traditions or simply a very weak believer

well i speak English not Arabic in this thread, secondly Allah is just one of his 99 names in Islam, therefore God is said when you want to include all his names (Al-Elah=The God). plus the God that Jews, Christians and Muslims worship.

all believe in the same God? If so, how would you reconcile that with the Quran versus the Old Testament or the New Testament? They cannot all be right,

well the NT is surely not from "The" God, for obvious reasons, one of them being that it was written after Jesus went to the Heavens, though it may contain some of the teachings of Christ that the Apostles had written down ( and were not Altered/Changed after them) but afterall it is not the "Injill" that God gave to Jesus, the Torah or OT was Corrupted on the hands of some Scribes that's why you find these many Contradictions in it.

"How can you say, ‘We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us’? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes has made it into a lie"

I can Post the Contradictions here if you prefer..

so how can we assume we all worship the same God?

all the followers of these three religions originally worshiped the one same God,who Revealed the Torah to Moses, Injill to Jesus, and the Quran to Muhammad.

[RubiconDecision]

First, changing the title made it a better topic, and one that more people are likely to participate in.

Second, I'm glad that you explain some of your posts, as few have an understanding of Islam.

Third, I'm not interested in disproving whether your belief system or my own is correct. I doubt that anyone will be persuaded to become a Muslim, a Christian, or a nonbeliever from a theological discussion.

You do realize that the community is full of atheists and agnostics. In fact, I would venture to say the preponderance of active posters in the D&D are affiliated by either of those positions. As such, any Quran verse will not have any authority. Islam is absolute submission to Allah, not the Quran as I understand it. If your goal is to get people to submit to Allah (or the many names of God in Islam like Ar-Raḥīm or Ar-Raḥmān) then instead of theology dismissing the divinity of Christ, then you might begin with very basic tenets of Islam.

Since the divinity of Jesus is the fundamental principle as well as the Resurrection of Christ, then by removing the divinity, at once most Christians would doubt all spirituality. There is no meaning to Christianity without those two things. I doubt that this theological proof you are attempting would then convert anyone to Islam at all. It would have the opposite effect.

Since many Christian have no idea that Jesus is mentioned in the Quran as ʿĪsā, then it's a teaching point to begin there. Otherwise a dismissal of his divinity and resurrection results in a dismissal of ʿĪsā. If ʿĪsā is dismissed than immediate a nonbeliever in Islam dismisses the Quran.

Finally, you've created a conundrum that can't be solved. If the NT is invalidated by not having been written by Jesus, then any discussion of God in the NT cannot be about God and only the words of men. I don't believe this of course.

If the God spoken of in the NT is false, it cannot be the same God spoken of in Islam.

If God didn't directly write the OT, but only God's prophets then are you saying they were as authorized as Mohammed. If so, then possibly if the OT prophets were as important as Mohammed, then both YHWH and Allah are the same God. I doubt this, as Islam elevates Mohammed and points out that the Torah and the Propets are an incomplete understanding as well.

Thus YHWH from an Judaic, Christian perspective cannot be the same as Allah. Only those who follow the teachings of the Quran would know Allah (or God's many names). Islam would be the only faithful.

[LestaT]

well i speak English not Arabic in this thread, secondly Allah is just one of his 99 names in Islam, therefore God is said when you want to include all his names (Al-Elah=The God). plus the God that Jews, Christians and Muslims worship.

I think you're slightly wrong here. Allah is simply the Arabic translation for the English word God.

[RubiconDecision]

I think you're slightly wrong here. Allah is simply the Arabic translation for the English word God.

"The word Allah, according to several Arabic lexicons, means "the Being Who comprises all the attributes of perfection", i.e. the Being Who is perfect in every way (in His knowledge, power etc.), and possesses the best and the noblest qualities imaginable in the highest degree. This meaning is supported by the Holy Quran when it says:

"His are the best (or most beautiful) names." (17:110; 20:8; and 7:180)

Contrary to popular belief, the word Allah is NOT a contraction of al-ilah (al meaning 'the', and ilah meaning 'god'). Had it been so, then the expression ya Allah ('O Allah!') would have been ungrammatical, because according to the Arabic language when you address someone by the vocative form ya followed by a title, the al ('the') must be dropped from the title. For example, you cannot say ya ar-rabb but must say ya rabb (for 'O Lord'). So if the word Allah was al-ilah ('the God'), we would not be able to say: ya Allah, which we do.
Lane's Arabic-English Lexicon (which is based on classical Arabic dictionaries), says under the word Allah, while citing many linguistical authorities:

"Allah ... is a proper name applied to the Being Who exists necessarily, by Himself, comprising all the attributes of perfection, a proper name denoting the true god ... the al being inseparable from it, not derived..."

Allah is thus a proper name, not derived from anything, and the Al is inseparable from it. The word al-ilah (the god) is a different word."
http://www.muslim.org/islam/allah.htm

Based upon the evidence I presented earlier, and in ideas from Islam itself, in all likelihood it would be incorrect to assert that YHWH from Judaism and Christianity is the same as Allah. YHWH is about Being "I am who I am". Allah is about being a perfect Being. One deals with being the essence of BEING; the other about a perfected Being. The names are quite different but both deal with Supreme Beings.

You should know however that the word Allah has been found on inscriptions of the Nabataens which date from the period of 37-100 AD (CE) and so the term predates Islam which doesn't occur until the mid 600 AD (CE).

It is certainly possible that Coptic Christians might have used the term Allah to speak of God, even YHWH, or any Egyptians who had become Jews, but of course they would have said Ha Shem or Adonai among many names of the God of the Torah.

[LestaT]

But why does some Christians insist that they have to use the word Allah ?

[RubiconDecision]

But why does some Christians insist that they have to use the word Allah ?

Because before we can have a discussion about God, we must define who God is. God is a generic term. In Christianity and Judaism, God's name is clearly spelled out. Without a study of Scripture, then one loses the meaning of the Name, and only thinks we're discussing God, a supreme being. That is not what YHWH (Ha Shem or Adonai) is.

For us to discuss this God named Allah, then you'd have to explain the attributes of that God, and then how a belief in Allah is Truth. One would then point to fallacies in the Torah and the Prophets (OT) and in the New Testament and demonstrate how Islam was more correct.

The OP is trying, but begins with a false premise or at least one that there is disagreement about. Then gives the incorrect definition of Allah, which I am sorry to say, casts doubt about the other parts of his/her post. I should be very glad to hear some post that speaks Truth, but when I immediately find error, then at once, I am not convinced.

Note that the definition and lexicon entry I have produced comes from an authoritative source, not a source that can be easily challenged, but one from Islam itself, and hence this is not about a biased Christian apologetics source, nor a biased source from Judaism either.

[Cyrene]

I'm not interested in disproving whether your belief system or my own is correct. I doubt that anyone will be persuaded to become a Muslim, a Christian, or a nonbeliever from a theological discussion.

that's correct, i'm not interested in that as well, when i read the Bible, i come across many things that are in contrast with my belief, so i search the book for an explanation or at least to know if it has basis in the Christian belief rather than being something new or was something that was innovated later after Christ, but when arrived at this topic, which is the Divinity of Christ, i haven't found that it was thoroughly explained, and i even found verses in the NT that reject it,so that's why i started this thread, to see how Christians justify it.

any Quran verse will not have any authority. Islam is absolute submission to Allah, not the Quran as I understand it.

the Muslims believe that the Quran IS the word of God that was directly inspired to Muhammad by the angel Gabriel ( who was sent by God to do so ) therefore the Quran has Absolute authority over us as we believe it's God's Unchanged words that survived for over 1,400 years.

If your goal is to get people to submit to Allah (or the many names of God in Islam like Ar-Raḥīm or Ar-Raḥmān) then instead of theology dismissing the divinity of Christ, then you might begin with very basic tenets of Islam.

Since the divinity of Jesus is the fundamental principle as well as the Resurrection of Christ, then by removing the divinity, at once most Christians would doubt all spirituality. There is no meaning to Christianity without those two things. I doubt that this theological proof you are attempting would then convert anyone to Islam at all. It would have the opposite effect.

as i addressed above, this wasn't the purpose of this thread. though i'm willing to start a thread for the basic tenets of Islam soon if God wills it.

Finally, you've created a conundrum that can't be solved. If the NT is invalidated by not having been written by Jesus, then any discussion of God in the NT cannot be about God and only the words of men. I don't believe this of course.

If the God spoken of in the NT is false, it cannot be the same God spoken of in Islam.

of course not the one in the NT, but the Injill.

If God didn't directly write the OT, but only God's prophets then are you saying they were as authorized as Mohammed. If so, then possibly if the OT prophets were as important as Mohammed, then both YHWH and Allah are the same God. I doubt this, as Islam elevates Mohammed and points out that the Torah and the Propets are an incomplete understanding as well.

God didn't directly write any of the three books, but he sent Gabriel to recite what God has taught him to say to the Prophets and they wrote it down as they hear it ( except for Prophet Muhammad as he was illiterate so he recites what he heard and his companions wrote it down )

Thus YHWH from an Judaic, Christian perspective cannot be the same as Allah. Only those who follow the teachings of the Quran would know Allah (or God's many names). Islam would be the only faithful

One thing that many non-Hebrew speaking Jews and Christians mistake about is the name of God Almighty in the Bible. "Yahweh" in Hebrew means "The Lord" or the "The God". It is not a name. Let us look at the following quotations from Christian and Jewish resources:


"Judaism teaches that while God's name exists in written form, it is too holy to be pronounced. The result has been that, over the last 2000 years, the correct pronunciation has been lost." (Mankind's Search for GOD, p. 225).


Here we clearly see that the pronunciation for the original name for God Almighty had been lost, and the Jews have no idea what the exact pronunciation is from their Holy Scriptures and resources.


"About 3,500 years ago, God spoke to Moses, saying: 'Thus shall you speak to the Israelites: The Lord [Hebrew: YHWH], the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you: This shall be My name forever, this My appellation for all eternity.' (Exodus 3:15; Psalm 135:13)" (Mankind's Search for GOD, p.225).


"....the four Hebrew consonants YHWH (Yahweh) that in their Latinized form have come to be known over the centuries in English as Jehovah." (Mankind's Search for GOD, p.225).


So the word "YHWH" or "Yahweh" or "Jehovah" is not the Original name, but the appellation (title) for the Almighty God. This is perfectly fine, because Jews, Christians and Muslims call on to God Almighty as "The Lord" or "The God", which means "Yahweh" or "Jehovah" in Hebrew and "Al-Rab" in Arabic. "Al-Rab" in Arabic and "Yahweh" in Hebrew and the other translations in all other languages are indeed God Almighty's title. But they are NOT His original Name!


Let us look at what Exodus 3:15 and Psalm 135:13 from the NIV Bible say: "God also said to Moses, "Say to the Israelites, `The Lord [Notice that they didn't write Jehovah. "The LORD" in only a title], the God of your fathers--the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob--has sent me to you.' This is my name forever, the name by which I am to be remembered from generation to generation. (From the NIV Bible, Exodus 3:15)"


"Your name, O Lord, endures forever, your renown, O Lord, through all generations. (From the NIV Bible, Psalm 135:13)"


So as we clearly see from the above Verses from the NIV Bible, the original name for God Almighty is not "Yahweh". The title "The Lord" is only a title and a nick name (if you will) that we give to God Almighty. But "Yahweh" is definitely Not The Original name for God Almighty.


"Allah" on the other hand is a name.

[sumskilz]

No, YHWH is not "The Lord" or "The God". Adonai is "Lord". That's what is pronounced in substitution for the name. "The God" would be Ha-El, Ha-Elohim, or Ha-Eloah. YHWH is a conjugation of the verb which means "to be" and means "that which continues to come into being" or "that which causes to come into being" It has the sense of past tense, but also continuous into the future. Some have speculated that it may have originally been an epithet rather than a name, but there is no direct evidence for that.

EDIT: In the NIV translation of Exodus 3:15 they actually write LORD in all capital letters. That's how it denotes that it's the name YHWH in the original Hebrew.

[Cyrene]

what i'm trying to say is that the use of "Allah" to refer to God predates Islam, you have the leader of the Jewish Community in Yathrib who was also the Highest Priest in the city before Islam came was "Abd-Allah Bin-Saba", the Jews of Arabia at that Time used the "Allah" in their Holy Scriptures, too. Also, the Christians' Arabic Bible at that time used the word "Allah" for God. Even today's Christians' Arabic Bibles use the word "Allah" for God.

Recently a famous Franciscan Archaeologist, found more than twenty churches in Madaba at the south of Jordan. From the Forth Century and found houses in Syria, Lebanon, Iraq and Palestine with this inscription :"Bismi Allah al-Rahman al-Raheem" which shows that even people before Islam used this Holy name, "Allah", for God Almighty.