Waco 2.0 imminent: Nevada burger farmer threatens 'range war' against federales

[Phier]

the rules for setting something like grazing fee's are rather Byzantine.

Which is why I side with the glorious mustache on principle. I have no idea how grazing fees work, my experience was more with water issues, but its a mess. Another issues is that you had a lot of environmental types trying to get very minor variations in fish populations classified as endangered species. Basically take a rainbow trout, see that genetically they have a few base pairs different than the normal population (not a difficult feat with a small isolated population) and now you have water that can't be used due to endangering a species.

[chamaeleo]

If prohibitively high grazing fees were really an issue, there'd be a lot fewer options on the dollar menu...

I agree to some point that parsing out phylogenetic minutiae in subspecies such as trout can get pretty tedious, but if there's a posterchild for grazing-vulnerable desert species: the desert tortoise is pretty much it.

http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/p...ing/index.html

A quick and informative read. Highlights:

Federal-lands livestock grazing enjoys $100 million annually in direct subsidy; indirect subsidies may be three times that.

Private, unirrigated rangeland in the West rents out for an average of $11.90, while monthly grazing fees on federal lands are currently set at a paltry $1.35 per cow and calf. Despite the extreme damage done, western federal rangelands account for less than 3 percent of all forage fed to livestock in the United States. If all livestock were removed from public lands in the West, in fact, beef prices would be unaffected.

Moochers, Squatters, Takers, Patriotic Men with Impressive Cookie-dusters...whatever you wanna call them, they are exploiting the system and if the system kicks back...too bad.

Just how lucrative is this racket? Some perspective:

Until recently I was paying about $16 each week in hay and grain for two lousy goats (nevermind the cost in $ and time of watering/housing/maintaining the damned things ON MY OWN property), which is mighty close to the ANNUAL grazing fee for a cow + calf. That's about 10x more meat at 1/50th the cost. $16 at a cheap supermarket would buy between 3 and 10 lbs of beef. That is about 1/100th of a 600 lb (hanging weight) cow...and Bundy boasts that his cattle are sought after by Whole Foods and other boutique venues where a ribeye on sale typically runs $16/lb!

Seriously, screw this guy.

[PointOfViewGun]

I still struggle to believe that this is for real. To top it off Fox News is defending it...

[Gaidin]

There is something to be said about reviewing Federal land management in the West. After reading the GAO report I posted earlier it does seem like a bit of a cluster. Not only is there a strange mishmash of agencies controlling a patchwork of different regions, the rules for setting something like grazing fee's are rather Byzantine.

Typically it depends on the purpose of the land. There's no reason to have the BLM manage a National Park, for instance.

[Phier]

I but if there's a posterchild for grazing-vulnerable desert species: the desert tortoise is pretty much it.

http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/p...ing/index.html

A quick and informative read. Highlights:

It informed me it was the kinda eco thought that got me out of ecology. Its pretty obvious they would rather just end all grazing just with a quick glance there.

But lets look at the tortoise....

https://journals.uair.arizona.edu/in...le/10776/10049

Summary and Conclusions
The historical record shows that:
1. Desert tortoises have coexisted with cattle for 300 years in California and Mexico and at least 100 years elsewhere.
2. The highest tortoise densities known occurred at a time when overgrazing by livestock was the severest ever known.
3. The fewer the cattle on the range, the fewer the number of tortoises.

So yea, poster child.

[Simon Cashmere]

Not sure if anyone has posted this yet, but:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UHdK962bqY

News report that the BLM was using bulls for target practice.

Wonder how the atomic testing hurt/hindered/helped the desert tortoise as a contribution from the Federal government. And the government was putting down tortoises because there were too many. Apparently this rancher owes a million bucks in ranch permit fees. I hate bureaucracy, it is just everywhere, covering everything with its millions of pages of rules and regulations, so many that no one lives long enough to read even a 1/100th of them, and yet we are all bound by them, as some bureaucrat comes to tell you that you have breached some sub-clause of some reg somewhere, and ignorance is no excuse! And usually the person in the government department lectures you about the heinous sin you have committed, and patronisingly tells you that no one is above the law, we all must obey the law. The best one ever is when I go to the passport office and a guy who can barely speak English wearing a turban tells me to prove to him that I am an Australian citizen. He should be proving it to me.

[Captain Jin]

Wonder how the atomic testing hurt/hindered/helped the desert tortoise as a contribution from the Federal government. And the government was putting down tortoises because there were too many. Apparently this rancher owes a million bucks in ranch permit fees. I hate bureaucracy, it is just everywhere, covering everything with its millions of pages of rules and regulations, so many that no one lives long enough to read even a 1/100th of them, and yet we are all bound by them, as some bureaucrat comes to tell you that you have breached some sub-clause of some reg somewhere, and ignorance is no excuse! And usually the person in the government department lectures you about the heinous sin you have committed, and patronisingly tells you that no one is above the law, we all must obey the law. The best one ever is when I go to the passport office and a guy who can barely speak English wearing a turban tells me to prove to him that I am an Australian citizen. He should be proving it to me.

Except Bundy knew that he had to pay. He used to pay. Then he just stopped. And he said he didn't have to because he doesn't recognize the US government and that he would pay Clark County and the state of Nevada. Except as I already mentioned that's against Nevada's constitution to begin with. It's just a convenient out for him to say he doesn't recognize Federal government while being on the Feds land. "Oh I'd pay Clark County or the State to use this land, because it's their land. But it's not actually it's the Fed's land, but I don't recognize the Fed so I guess I don't have to pay anyone. Lol yay."

[nce_wht_guy]

Not sure if anyone has posted this yet, but:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UHdK962bqY

News report that the BLM was using bulls for target practice.

Wonder how the atomic testing hurt/hindered/helped the desert tortoise as a contribution from the Federal government. And the government was putting down tortoises because there were too many. Apparently this rancher owes a million bucks in ranch permit fees. I hate bureaucracy, it is just everywhere, covering everything with its millions of pages of rules and regulations, so many that no one lives long enough to read even a 1/100th of them, and yet we are all bound by them, as some bureaucrat comes to tell you that you have breached some sub-clause of some reg somewhere, and ignorance is no excuse! And usually the person in the government department lectures you about the heinous sin you have committed, and patronisingly tells you that no one is above the law, we all must obey the law. The best one ever is when I go to the passport office and a guy who can barely speak English wearing a turban tells me to prove to him that I am an Australian citizen. He should be proving it to me.

Really don't see how the racially charged diatribe at the end worked into your argument, but alright. But yeah, ignorance of the law is not an excuse. Also, as Captain Jin has already demonstrated, he knew damn well what he was doing.

[Slydessertfox]

Hmmm. So I can just rob a bank now and claim I didn't know it was against the law, and so get off scot free? Good to know in case I ever run on rough times.

[bigfootedfred]

this may be of interest,. i will try to find a working copy of the video, it was a man named, donahuge, talking to milita members.


edit

: oooh that vhs noise.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obOFZY77tnQ

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...interesting%29

[IronBrig4]

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/18/op...f=opinion&_r=0

Basically, this joker doesn't get to choose which laws to follow just because he doesn't recognize the government. Ignorance of the law is not a valid defense in court, so he can't say he didn't know he had to pay a grazing fee.

[Count of Montesano]

Here is what I do t get about all this. If Bundy was named Ali and his merry group of right wing terrorists were jihadists they would have been stamped out already. And of course the greatest irony is that right wing terrorists are arguably more dangerous than the Islamic variety. I recognize that there are women and children at the ranch so I'm glad the govt is showing restraint, but from a pure threat level ordering in the National Guard or calling in a drone strike would not be out of line.

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/...emists/275277/

[Heathen Hammer]

Here is what I do t get about all this. If Bundy was named Ali and his merry group of right wing terrorists

So what kind of violence did he commit with an intent to spread fear? Or are you just using "terrorism" as a liberal buzz-word?

were jihadists they would have been stamped out already. And of course the greatest irony is that right wing terrorists are arguably more dangerous than the Islamic variety.

Latter exists to a bigger extent then the former.

I recognize that there are women and children at the ranch so I'm glad the govt is showing restraint, but from a pure threat level ordering in the National Guard or calling in a drone strike would not be out of line.

Starting a civil war would definitely be out of line.

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/...emists/275277/

Looks like a propaganda attempt to justify erosion of freedoms in US.

[IronBrig4]

Latter exists to a bigger extent then the former.

On an international scale, yes. But not in the US. Also, when you consider that the yahoos were planning on using women as human shields, that is definitely a tactic associated with terrorists.

Looks like a propaganda attempt to justify erosion of freedoms in US.

There was nothing in that article about eroding any sort of freedom. If you're talking about the joker in Nevada, then the BLM was clearly within its rights. http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/...0587/#comments

Right-wing terrorism is clearly on the rise. The crazies really came out of the woodwork when Obama was elected. Since September 11, 2001, more people in the US have died from right-wing terrorists than from jihadists.

[John ''True Grit'' Wayne]

This could be awesome. Some burger farmer doesn't want the government telling where he can and can't let his crops graze, and has called militias to help defend him against the Bureau of Land Management.

What? Anyhow this burger farmer must be rearing mad cows.This shows why we must keep our right to bear arms in case Obama tries to take away our freedoms with his communist ideas

[Heathen Hammer]

On an international scale, yes. But not in the US.

US isn't Middle East. In fact, if US wasn't involved in the middle East, it wouldn't deal with Middle-Eastern types of terrorism. So yeah, it is your government's fault, not some mythical "right-wing terrorists".

Also, when you consider that the yahoos were planning on using women as human shields, that is definitely a tactic associated with terrorists.

Source?

There was nothing in that article about eroding any sort of freedom. If you're talking about the joker in Nevada, then the BLM was clearly within its rights. http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/...0587/#comments

Right-wing terrorism is clearly on the rise. The crazies really came out of the woodwork when Obama was elected. Since September 11, 2001, more people in the US have died from right-wing terrorists than from jihadists.

Only "right-wing terrorist" that I can think of is Timothy McVeigh and that SF guy who shot 3 people in the parking lot. The Boston bombing were perpetrated by Chechen jihdaists. I think there is a lot of hysteria regarding "right-wing terrorists" in media to create a scapegoat and distract the population from US government, which is the real and true enemy.
After all, there is more chance of getting shot by cops, then to die from hands of a "right-wing terrorist".

[IronBrig4]

US isn't Middle East. In fact, if US wasn't involved in the middle East, it wouldn't deal with Middle-Eastern types of terrorism. So yeah, it is your government's fault, not some mythical "right-wing terrorists".

The degree to which the US is responsible for Middle Eastern terrorism is another topic. I'm not sure what you're trying to get at with that last sentence.

Source?

Here you go.

Only "right-wing terrorist" that I can think of is Timothy McVeigh and that SF guy who shot 3 people in the parking lot. The Boston bombing were perpetrated by Chechen jihdaists. I think there is a lot of hysteria regarding "right-wing terrorists" in media to create a scapegoat and distract the population from US government, which is the real and true enemy.
After all, there is more chance of getting shot by cops, then to die from hands of a "right-wing terrorist".

You're forgetting about the asshat who murdered six people at a Sikh temple in Wisconsin, Hutaree militia in Michigan who had planned to murder police officers in an elaborate plot (an FBI informant turned them in before they could act), the guy who set off a bomb at the Atlanta Summer Games because he claimed the Olympics promoted socialism, and many others. This report lists recent domestic terrorist activity, and the majority are right-wing extremists.

People who die at the hands of police run the gamut from those shot because they were genuine threats to "suicides by cop." I don't deny there are some killed due to excessive force, and those must be addressed. Those shootings are not politically motivated, however, and are due to shoddy police work. If you're really the type who thinks the government's out to get them... sorry?

[Heathen Hammer]

The degree to which the US is responsible for Middle Eastern terrorism is another topic. I'm not sure what you're trying to get at with that last sentence.

"Right-wing terrorism" is over-hyped by media to ditract the population from real issues.

Here you go.

FOX? Really?

You're forgetting about the asshat who murdered six people at a Sikh temple in Wisconsin, Hutaree militia in Michigan who had planned to murder police officers in an elaborate plot (an FBI informant turned them in before they could act), the guy who set off a bomb at the Atlanta Summer Games because he claimed the Olympics promoted socialism, and many others.

That makes a handful of cases in a span of more then a decade.

This report lists recent domestic terrorist activity, and the majority are right-wing extremists.

The source has a strong left-wing agenda to it.

People who die at the hands of police run the gamut from those shot because they were genuine threats to "suicides by cop." I don't deny there are some killed due to excessive force, and those must be addressed. Those shootings are not politically motivated, however, and are due to shoddy police work. If you're really the type who thinks the government's out to get them... sorry?

No, but corrupt/stupid policemen are a bigger threat to an average Joe like you and I then some semi-imaginary "right-wing terrorists", which mostly exist in the minds of government propaganda and left-wing paranoia.

[Vanoi]

The source has a strong left-wing agenda to it.

The Southern Poverty Law Center is not a leftist organization. It has helped fight for civil rights in America since 1971. The SPLC keeps a list of hate groups and a lot of them are right wing groups, but they have labeled Muslim and leftist organizations as hate groups too.

This organization even helps former nazis and racists be rehabilitated bake into society and help them get a job ect. I would love to see the proof the SPLC has a leftist agenda.

[Heathen Hammer]

The Southern Poverty Law Center is not a leftist organization. It has helped fight for civil rights in America since 1971.

While also serving rather well as a money-making scheme.

The SPLC keeps a list of hate groups and a lot of them are right wing groups, but they have labeled Muslim and leftist organizations as hate groups too.

Their "classification" seems to be rather weird. For example, they added FRC as a "hate group" which resulted in assault and murder of security guard, who was attacked by a man, who saw them listed as such in SPLC website. Speaking of domestic terrorism, eh?

This organization even helps former nazis and racists be rehabilitated bake into society and help them get a job ect.

Hilarious.

I would love to see the proof the SPLC has a leftist agenda.

Didn't they label FAIR as a "hate group" as well? They seem to attack Conservative groups as "hate" groups, which is typical for organizations with leftist agenda. Also is there source on them listing left-wing organizations as hate groups?