Sekigahara Campaign - Historical

[Mitsuhide]

Like many SHogun players, I am a big fan of the Sekigahara campaign. It is a good representation of one of the most decisive periods in Japanese history, and not to mention loads of fun. For the past couple of years, I have been doing a lot of research into Feudal Japanese history, particularly the build-up from Toyotomi's death to the establishment of the Tokugawa Shogunate, and I have though up a few ways to make some historical tweaks to the campaign. Here are some of the things I've though up:

Start time: not to major, but I feel like 1598 would be a better starting year, because that is the year Hideyoshi died, and Tokugawa started Usurping clans under his own influence. I feel like a Sekigahara campaign when Hideyoshi is alive is a little strange, mostly because Ieyasu knew making his bid for the Shogunate while the Taiko was still alive would be suicide.

Ishida & Tokugawa: In my opinion, the Sekigahara campaign should focus more on the struggle between Ishida and Tokugawa, rather than Toyotomi and Tokugawa, since Hideyoshi would be dead. So sorry all you Hideyoshi fans (I am one too actually ) but the Toyotomi and "Go - Bugyo" should be taken out of the game, giving Osaka and Kyoto to Mitsunari, and perhaps the Toyotomi's holdings on Shikoku to the CHosokabe. Now, as for the Tokugawa, sorry to all you Naomasa fans, but since the Ii currently control Edo, for historical purposes, the proince of Musashi should be added to the Tokugawa domain.

Kawachi - no - Maeda: Ok, so since I've taken away from clans you guys might like, I know you Masamune and Takatora fans are gonna like this . The Maeda clan became loyal to the Tokugawa after the death of Hideyoshi, and our friend Toshinaga Maeda surrendered after a military stand-off with Ieyasu. So, I propose that the Maeda led by Toshiie should be taken out, and it's lands divided amongst other Daimyo. Noto should go to the Ettchu no Maeda as it belonged to, and I think the Date should get Miyagi province. As for Kawachi and Kii, I propose new clans to be added, giving Kawachi to Torii Mototada, and Kii being given to Todo Takatora. I hope I haven't broken too many hearts so far

Omi & Iga: If the Ishida are going to get Osaka and Kyoto, then I think Mitsunari's province of Omi should be given to the Kyogoku since they owned Otsu castle in Omi (if they're moved, then the Ishikawa should be given South Shinano). Also, Iga should be given to the Tsutsui, as they were the owners of the province at the time, not Hanzo.

Kyushu: Ok, this one I'm still conflicted over, so I think this needs the most discussion. I've seen this brought up a million times in the General discussion forum with people requesting clans like the Konishi, Tachibana, and Otomo. I like all these clans, but they cannot fit with the small amount of domains Total war gave Kyushu. However, I still have my two cents. The Kobayakawa I like there (although their banner does need to be fixed ), and the Kato are also placed nicely. However, I don't know how I feel about the Hongo and Kuroda. The Shimazu are good, but I think their loyalty should be to the Tokugawa, since they didn't switch untill the last minute. However, I think they Hongo should be replaced with the Otomo, and positioned to be at war with the Shimazu and Kuroda. I would love to hear what you all have to say though

Realm Divide: This is really my last thing. I think that a realm divide either at a certain year, of after your clan takes a certain number of provinces would add a nice amount of challenge to this campaign . I'm thinking something like all clans loyal to the opposite faction go to war with you and your faction like in FOTS. Also, like in FOTS, I think that in order to achieve victory, your faction needs to control certain key provinces (Musashi and Settsu in this case).

Tell me what you all think! I would love to get some more ideas floating around

[Mitsuhide]

Come on everybody, lets get some chatter goin! Looking at other forums I now realize my idea for the realm divide is not possible (or original ). but I want to hear some of your ideas, particularly about Kyushu. If you had to pick. Would you guys say Tachibana or Kobayakawa for the domain north of Higo? I'll try to get a map for reference also.

[DeanE555]

Well,chatter isn't my forte but I like your ideas. it does sound good to make it like in FOTS and get rid of Hideyoshi (sorry dude but you already got yourself a nice campaign on Tenka Fubu ) and using Mitsunari as the Toyotomi leader instead (can't help it but I like Mitsunari better than Ieyasu and Naomasa).
Anyways,your Ideas sound good,now,I already saw a thread about trying to combine expanded japan mod into the seki campaign. if these somehow succeeds then there shouldn't be any problem adding clans on Kyushu (then we could propably have Otomo without discarding Hongo)

[Mitsuhide]

Alright! Another post. Thanks for backing me up on the Ishida thing, I feel like their position is too weak in the current game. I saw the expanded sekigahara thing, but I'm not sure. If we can get a seasoned modder to do this then by all means; that will allow the Ii to keep a domain in Kozuke, and it will allow more room on Kyushu. I have never modded before, but I am under the impression changing borders in the game would take a while, so it is not a priority for me at least, but I would like to hear other opinions once this thread becomes more active
As for realm divide, I've seen that my idea isn't doable, so would you be in favor of having the realm divide happen so that only clans that REEEAAALLY hate you declare war? that should make it so that you get something of a faction based realm divide. I also had the idea that capturing Edo or Osaka will trigger it automatically, what do you think?

[DeanE555]

Well'unfortunatly I don't know **** about modding as well,so can't do anything about it.
as you suggest for realm divide,this could work as well,some clans weren't loyal to their main lord all the way (you know who I'm talking about Hideaki-kun...).
Just wish some of the modders of the campaign will manage to pop on this thread and make it so (I don't think they work on this mod at all anyway since rome 2 is all the rage now for better and worse,even I spend most of my TW time on it but feudal Japan always has a special spot inside me)

[Mitsuhide]

I'm going to try asking some of the modders of the original campaign to take a look at this, because I would really like to see this happen. Wish me luck! But going back to Kyushu, if you had to choose what clans were present given the current borders, who would you pick?

[DeanE555]

considering hongo tokihisa was a general of the shimazu as much as I know and not a daimyo,I guess that at least hyuga province could go to the otomo clan and give the osumi to shimazu and add them another army under hongo tokihisa

[Akaie]

A later start date and proper use of the modding tools to better represent the folks of that time sound great .

[Mitsuhide]

Thank you very much for stopping by Akaie, your input is always appreciated!

and Dean, thank you very much for your input, I was leaning towards that but I was still quite conflicted also, I'm considering having the Kobayakawa domain split in half with half of it remaining with Hideaki, and the other half going to the Tachibana; what do you think? Soon I would like to get a map of Shogun 2 japan made of the new province distributions I have in mind to help me keep them on track. Also, would you be interested in helping me with historical research? This may be my area of expertise, but I am far from all knowing as much as I hate to admit it. If there is any clan you think should be represented, or if something I post contradicts historical facts do please tell me. We are going for historical perfection after all!

[Erwin Rommel]

First off. Back then, during the conception, we still had to go around stuff that cant be changed easily, for one, there was Hatakeyama, with 4 regions spread out, and cannot alter it to distribute between 2 or 3 more clans, so we decided, Maeda it is then, he was like one of the few who boasts more than a million koku.

Ishida and Tokugawa, well Ishida was not a powerful daimyo, he was just a retinue vassal of the Toyotomi and acts to safeguard it, hence clobbering an alliance of sorts from Western Clans, even having Mori be the nominal commander. The struggle would be more fitting that Toyotomi is still alive then we can have a Western vs Eastern clans struggle.

We struggled with Kyushu really. Like get some cool christian clan or something like Otomo or Tachibana but yeah regions are too few hence interesting clans get more priority.

As for Musashi...........well giving it to Tokugawa made better sense but the vanilla clan only had one region, and I cant let it be weakened, so we assigned Tokugawa to Vanilla Hojo to get more regions and gold to get it a nice head start. Gameplay reasons BUT if there is as away to get Tokugawa to get Musashi and get another province (basically transplant Vanilla Hojo lands to Musashi plus one region) that would be great and the regions surrounding it go to his famous vassals.

But hey, now that we can edit regions, its possible to rectify the limitations imposed on us earlier.

Btw the priority on which clan gets priority when there is a conflict in region assignment is...........who has the better looking kabuto and who has an anime based on it.

[Mitsuhide]

Haha Rommel, I understand entirely. This mod came out not much longer after the release of the vanilla game, and modding techniques have become much more advanced as you said. Now we can get more accurate representation of clans now that domains can be broken up (Now the Date will be more powerful with Sendai being added to their domain which I know makes you happy ).

I'm going to try to make a map of what clan distributions I have planned, so that will make it much easier to process everything at once, even I get confused over what I'm planning to be honest.

And as for the Ishida vs. Toyotomi, let me explain my reasoning for making the Ishida more powerful, and getting rid of the Toyotomi. As far as territory is concerned, the Ishida are represented quite well in the current mod; before Sekigahara their personal domain was a fief of just 40,000 koku in Omi. However, my plans to get rid of their holdings in Omi, and give the Ishida the provinces of Settsu and Yamashiro are made to represent the influence Mitsunari had after Hideyoshi's death. I am aware that technically speaking, Mori Terumoto was the most powerful of the Western daimyo, but he still took orders from Mitsunari.

[Mitsuhide]

Another thought I had though was getting rid of the Ishida and making Ishida Mitsunari the head of the Toyotomi, and having Hideyori as his son? But I don't know, this feels like a little bit of a stretch. Basically, I am determined to make Mitsunari a major player in the campaign rather than a second rate Daimyo (I don't care too much for mitsunari, but I really think he should be more important).

And about priority, I totally get what you mean. At first I thought about getting rid of the Shima all together, and replacing the Naoe all together with the Satake, but I just didn't have the heart to get rid of Sakon and Kanetsugu XD

[Mitsuhide]

What do you all think? Should mitsunari be the head of the toyotomi or ishida? (Presuming hideyoshi is dead at the start of the campaign)

[Diocle]

I succeeded in playing Sekigahara Mod, turning the game into English, so now I can say that this Mod is awesome!

About the matter of this thread, I was wondering ... about all these intelligent suggestions by Mitsuhide (I especially liked the idea of the two main factions) wouldn't it be interesting using FotS as basis, the map is cool and the mechanics of the game are perfectly suited for two main factions, and the units could stay as they are, is this an idiotic thought by Diocle, or would it be possible?

[weirdoascensor]

Possible - Just need lots of work...
Wasn't Akaie once tried to use FoTS for Sekigahara? There are screenshots of it somewhere in this very subforum...

[Erwin Rommel]

I succeeded in playing Sekigahara Mod, turning the game into English, so now I can say that this Mod is awesome!

About the matter of this thread, I was wondering ... about all these intelligent suggestions by Mitsuhide (I especially liked the idea of the two main factions) wouldn't it be interesting using FotS as basis, the map is cool and the mechanics of the game are perfectly suited for two main factions, and the units could stay as they are, is this an idiotic thought by Diocle, or would it be possible?

AN EDO-JIDAI MOD! Starting from 1600s or maybe 1700s ending in the Bakumatsu, watch as the realm slowly disintegrates to civil war again(using FOTS mechanics), using units between sengoku jidai and the Boshin War, sure FOTS has that but maybe we could get a variant of units that are less armored looking and more militia like (less loan armor to portray the scaling down of the militarized society), and more elaborate looking bushi and their kabuto (yeah, kawari kabuto, the stranger variant of samurai helmets, really took off in this period, less fighting more pimping of armor)

Or maybe just port Seki to ROTS?

What do you all think? Should mitsunari be the head of the toyotomi or ishida? (Presuming hideyoshi is dead at the start of the campaign)

Ishida could head the Go Bugyo, get him a nice powerbase of Kyoto, while the Toyotomi still gets Osaka

[Yerevan]

About the matter of this thread, I was wondering ... about all these intelligent suggestions by Mitsuhide (I especially liked the idea of the two main factions) wouldn't it be interesting using FotS as basis, the map is cool and the mechanics of the game are perfectly suited for two main factions, and the units could stay as they are, is this an idiotic thought by Diocle, or would it be possible?

I would love it. IMO the FOTS map is the best map since the game abandoned tiles *. It really gives so many strategic options there is a possibility for guerilla, raids and enough place for the AI to actually surprise you. The original S2 map is too narrow and has too many chokepoints and armies just follow roads. Even the smallest skirmishing stacks !

I don't know if I'm really objective about it but I often have the feeling that the AI process better on a more opened and bigger map. I saw that happening in the CiG expansion.

* and besides it's a beautifull map ! Might just be a bit dark for some people, but the Sekigahara Mon colors would fit perfectly to it.

[Diocle]

@Erwin Rommel: Great idea!

But I've to admit that actually my proposal was more limited and not so ambitious, in fact I think that it would be cool using FotS, because the 'political' dynamics of FotS are very well suited to the Sekigahra campaign, this because I think that the project of Tokugawa was a political project, and a winning one, he wanted to stop forever the civil wars between clans, he wanted a centralized administration and he wanted to limit the power of the Clans, he completed the work of Oda and Hideyoshi, his struggle was a military struggle to change the political assets of the country, to save the tradition and the values of the Shogunate, was this a reform or was this a counter reform?
Was Ieyasu a reactionary leader? Or was he a great reformer? (if we assume we can use the word 'reactionary' for a historical character of the early XVII cent.)

... all these points are at the basis of my idea about FotS, who cares about winning the Campaign with the single clan? The important matter is that your Party wins!
Are you with the new Japan of Tokugawa or are you with the Western Clans? Do you want the war to end all the wars or do you prefer the freedom of the previous era? Are you with the Tokugawa's Party or against it? Was Hideyoshi more open minded or if he didn't die, would Oda have been a more open minded Leader?
These are the reasons why I find FotS a good basis for the Sekigahara Campaign, I see it as a fascinating political struggle (the final one) between two parties, two ideas about the future (both conservative!), between two geographical areas of the country. The political point of Tokugawa probably may be summarized in this way: We have to change all only to change nothing! (we in Italy are the max experts in the matter! )


@Yerevan: I Totally agree, I don't add anything else because you have perfectly explained (using a better English for sure ) all the points I wanted to write about the map!

[Mitsuhide]

I like the idea of making the Sekigahara campaign for the FOTS map, but I must say I like the aesthetic aspects of the Shogun 2 map over the FOTS map. Is there anybody that would be willing to make the changes to the Sekigahara campaign to fit the changes I suggested at the top of the page? I would do it myself but I have no experience modding

[Destin Faroda]

I like the idea of making the Sekigahara campaign for the FOTS map, but I must say I like the aesthetic aspects of the Shogun 2 map over the FOTS map. Is there anybody that would be willing to make the changes to the Sekigahara campaign to fit the changes I suggested at the top of the page? I would do it myself but I have no experience modding

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...S-Expanded-Map
We're trying to expand the FotS map. Afterwards, we would like to backport it to the Sengoku and Genpei campaigns.