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Thread: Alien senses, culture and communication with humans

  1. #41

    Default Re: Alien senses, culture and communication with humans

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriakos View Post
    I strongly think that this is not at all probable... Many reasons:

    -Binary is a subset of the 9 (or 10, with zero) repeated numerals that humans use. It is not that likely that aliens would use a similar main system, or a similar 'simplified' (i know that binary is not exactly that, but anyway) system.

    -Binary is not the only system used in computers. Systems of 3 digits were also put to use (eg in the Soviet union computing). Furthermore there are still examinations of whether a 3-digit system will be better for all computers now, moreso with the possibility to use biological parts in them as well (which i know little about).

    -A number system seems to prerequisite the ability to focus on differences of size or expansion. Not all life forms would have to need that or focus on that.

    There can be many other reasons too, in my view

    *

    I think that aliens would likely be very different from us, unless of course they were somehow created by a common ancestor as us (a theory, which i have no view of either way).
    He's actually somewhat right but not for the reason he thinks. Binary is a natural numerical set to reach in math, whatever a race's nominal set to count with, because of electrical theory, the positive and negative charge. They can easily, logically, be mapped to zero and one, whatever your whim or choice might be. The digital on/off is not at all necessary to any given race that may or may not be found out in the universe, however.
    One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas.
    -Neil deGrasse Tyson

    Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable. Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all.

  2. #42

    Default Re: Alien senses, culture and communication with humans


    Nature had this article not long ago about binary number use by Polynesian tribes 600 years ago:
    http://www.nature.com/news/polynesia...rs-ago-1.14380
    "Binary arithmetic, the basis of all virtually digital computation today, is usually said to have been invented at the start of the eighteenth century by the German mathematician Gottfried Leibniz. But a study now shows that a kind of binary system was already in use 300 years earlier among the people of the tiny Pacific island of Mangareva in French Polynesia.
    The discovery, made by analysing historical records of the now almost wholly assimilated Mangarevan culture and language and reported in Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences1, suggests that some of the advantages of the binary system adduced by Leibniz might create a cognitive motivation for this system to arise spontaneously, even in a society without advanced science and technology."
    Last edited by RubiconDecision; April 19, 2014 at 12:58 AM.

  3. #43

    Default Re: Alien senses, culture and communication with humans

    As far as I'm concerned it makes little difference if they use binary or trinary or any other number system. If they have a completely incomprehensible way of handling language. If its based on color changes, or pheromones or whatever.

    If they are intelligent they will be able to figure out a way to communicate at some level with us.
    If we are intelligent so will we with them.

    You have to delve into almost realms of fantasy to envision a lifeform, able to communicate or travel across the stars, yet that has no ability to communicate with us.

    It would be more likely to encounter one that just doesn't want to talk with us, rather than being unable.
    "When I die, I want to die peacefully in my sleep, like Fidel Castro, not screaming in terror, like his victims."

    My shameful truth.

  4. #44
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    Default Re: Alien senses, culture and communication with humans

    Quote Originally Posted by Phier View Post
    As far as I'm concerned it makes little difference if they use binary or trinary or any other number system. If they have a completely incomprehensible way of handling language. If its based on color changes, or pheromones or whatever.

    If they are intelligent they will be able to figure out a way to communicate at some level with us.
    If we are intelligent so will we with them.

    You have to delve into almost realms of fantasy to envision a lifeform, able to communicate or travel across the stars, yet that has no ability to communicate with us.

    It would be more likely to encounter one that just doesn't want to talk with us, rather than being unable.
    Maybe.

    Then again we don't communicate with any other lifeform on our own planet.

    Obviously apes aren't star-travelling, but why think that if a species has developed the ability to travel such distances, it will also have the ability to communicate with an entirely different being?

    Sometimes massive difference alone can be utterly cancelling any will to even try to communicate. We do not try to have a discussion with a tree. Also note that the aliens aren't that likely to be pretty much like us only just have other 3d forms and so on, or other 3d aircraft etc. While in computer games this is usually the case, personally i doubt it is likely to be so in reality.
    Λέων μεν ὄνυξι κρατεῖ, κέρασι δε βούς, ἄνθρωπος δε νῷι
    "While the lion prevails with its claws, and the ox through its horns, man does by his thinking"
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  5. #45

    Default Re: Alien senses, culture and communication with humans

    Actually this is not true. We have been trying to communicate with gorillas for some time with sign language. The most famous student is Koko and her companion Dr. Francine Patterson. Koko is not the only gorilla to have been taught sign language. The gorillas both speak in sentences in ASL (American Sign Language) and also clearly understand sign language.

    Some may doubt the authenticity and assume that Dr. Patterson is giving away body position or gesture clues. I do not believe that to be the case, as some of the sentences are complex ideas.


    Say we meet an alien species who is mute, then of course if they can hear our vocal frequencies, something like sign language would be a part. Native Americans used a common sign language in the Old West, as did trappers.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plains_..._Sign_Language
    http://www.inquiry.net/outdoor/native/sign/history.htm
    Last edited by RubiconDecision; April 19, 2014 at 03:40 AM.

  6. #46
    Kyriakos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Alien senses, culture and communication with humans

    Those are all either other beings of the same species (human) or other 3d creatures (and even humanoid in some degree, like those great apes).

    Some aliens living far away are not that likely to have even this degree of common feature.
    Λέων μεν ὄνυξι κρατεῖ, κέρασι δε βούς, ἄνθρωπος δε νῷι
    "While the lion prevails with its claws, and the ox through its horns, man does by his thinking"
    Anaxagoras of Klazomenae, 5th century BC










  7. #47

    Default Re: Alien senses, culture and communication with humans

    Quote Originally Posted by Phier View Post
    As far as I'm concerned it makes little difference if they use binary or trinary or any other number system. If they have a completely incomprehensible way of handling language. If its based on color changes, or pheromones or whatever.
    The beautiful thing with logic is that it's universal. The binary system is a result of two things an advanced race must have mastered regardless of language: 1) Numerics and 2) boolean logic. So even in the most extreme and incomprehensible cases you listed, some communication would still be possible (if heavy-handed) using binary. As far as I can see, as long as aliens think in a way we can comprehend, it is enough for communication.

    However this discussion brings forward the question of how different from us an advanced alien race might have developed biologically. Seems to me that if we are to find that out, the first thing that needs to be clear are the conditions necessary for large-sized life to evolve, and after that we would have to discuss the most extreme cases possible (edit: Silisium based lifeforms, anyone?) within that framework and what they would mean for evolution of life.
    Last edited by Nikitn; April 19, 2014 at 12:03 PM.

  8. #48
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    Default Re: Alien senses, culture and communication with humans

    For all we know the aliens might not be building anything due to massive differences in biology. Maybe to them the human buildings would seem to be some kind of over-human nesting smaller human entities. And the actual material buildings are probably the most striking/immediate evidence of a human "rule" on this planet.

    If you take out plant-tree life, and "innanimate objects", then pretty much everything else on Earth functions in a somewhat similar fashion as to its main traits (eg moving ability through limbs, distinct atomic entities regardless of overall group or hive-mentality in various degree), mostly found on a single set of terrain (land or water), most of it (apart from the largest and smallest animals, insects and arachids) of generally similar overall size.
    So it is doubtful that all those would exist for beings watching different stars, in different kinds of planets. Maybe they don't even dwell on the actual planets (not 3d based even to that degree).
    Λέων μεν ὄνυξι κρατεῖ, κέρασι δε βούς, ἄνθρωπος δε νῷι
    "While the lion prevails with its claws, and the ox through its horns, man does by his thinking"
    Anaxagoras of Klazomenae, 5th century BC










  9. #49

    Default Re: Alien senses, culture and communication with humans

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriakos View Post
    Maybe.

    Then again we don't communicate with any other lifeform on our own planet.

    Obviously apes aren't star-travelling, but why think that if a species has developed the ability to travel such distances, it will also have the ability to communicate with an entirely different being?

    Sometimes massive difference alone can be utterly cancelling any will to even try to communicate. We do not try to have a discussion with a tree. Also note that the aliens aren't that likely to be pretty much like us only just have other 3d forms and so on, or other 3d aircraft etc. While in computer games this is usually the case, personally i doubt it is likely to be so in reality.

    I don't talk with snails but that doesn't mean I couldn't talk with an intelligent snail. We are getting into fantasy realms here. We also have to think in terms of probable evolution. There is no reason for a tree to be intelligent to do its "job" as a tree. Imagine a really smart tree vrs a really dumb tree. Which one survives? The one with the best soil and sun. There is NO reason to develop intelligence.
    "When I die, I want to die peacefully in my sleep, like Fidel Castro, not screaming in terror, like his victims."

    My shameful truth.

  10. #50
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    Default Re: Alien senses, culture and communication with humans

    Quote Originally Posted by Phier View Post
    I don't talk with snails but that doesn't mean I couldn't talk with an intelligent snail. We are getting into fantasy realms here. We also have to think in terms of probable evolution. There is no reason for a tree to be intelligent to do its "job" as a tree. Imagine a really smart tree vrs a really dumb tree. Which one survives? The one with the best soil and sun. There is NO reason to develop intelligence.
    That doesn't seem to be the case, though, cause the humans/human-like beings in the depth of prehistory were (supposedly, and at least in any obvious manner) not that different in traits from the rest of the humanoid creatures argued to be around. They probably did not do many grandiose things either. Sure, they had the ability to move, but so do a myriad other earthy creatures who seem to stay as stupid as they always were. A tree, on the other hand, cannot be said to have that little to gain by developing 'intelligence'. If it could alter the soil in more optimal ways then it would gain. Likewise if it could reposition itself towards the better sunlight. Moreso if it has the ability to calculate larger dispersal distances for its seeds, or more realistic ones when they are dependent on animals moving them around.

    I am not sure if trees don't have some sort of intelligence, although they obviously don't have moving limbs anyway. But to argue that a being develops intelligence cause somehow the organism knows on some level that it will help it, well, sounds more like a gap in a theory rather than a concrete model. For all we know the prehistoric people were for endless millenia in some sort of lucid-dream state mentally-wise, since they did not even have a language or anything resembling an actual set communication (probably even more primitive ones at start than those employed now by apes and monkeys). Such a being is not very likely to evolve out of some cosmic information which makes it prone to develop a new ability; not any more than a dying tree growing wings because it could then fly to a better, nearby soil.
    Λέων μεν ὄνυξι κρατεῖ, κέρασι δε βούς, ἄνθρωπος δε νῷι
    "While the lion prevails with its claws, and the ox through its horns, man does by his thinking"
    Anaxagoras of Klazomenae, 5th century BC










  11. #51

    Default Re: Alien senses, culture and communication with humans

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriakos View Post
    For all we know the aliens might not be building anything due to massive differences in biology. Maybe to them the human buildings would seem to be some kind of over-human nesting smaller human entities. And the actual material buildings are probably the most striking/immediate evidence of a human "rule" on this planet.

    If you take out plant-tree life, and "innanimate objects", then pretty much everything else on Earth functions in a somewhat similar fashion as to its main traits (eg moving ability through limbs, distinct atomic entities regardless of overall group or hive-mentality in various degree), mostly found on a single set of terrain (land or water), most of it (apart from the largest and smallest animals, insects and arachids) of generally similar overall size.
    So it is doubtful that all those would exist for beings watching different stars, in different kinds of planets. Maybe they don't even dwell on the actual planets (not 3d based even to that degree).
    Is your post a reply to mine? I seriously don't understand your point if so. Naturally the aliens would be building stuff- how else would they traverse the stars?

    At the risk of being stuck in a human state of mind I say there's really one and only one way to achieve space flight; mastering the laws of nature and knowing how to apply them thru engineering. To do that, the aliens must think like to a significant degree. I have no idea how an alien would look physically though.
    Last edited by Nikitn; April 19, 2014 at 12:26 PM.

  12. #52
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    Default Re: Alien senses, culture and communication with humans

    Quote Originally Posted by Nikitn View Post
    Is your post a reply to mine? I seriously don't understand your point if so. Naturally the aliens would be building stuff- how else would they traverse the stars?

    At the risk of being stuck in a human state of mind I say there's really one and only one way to achieve space flight; mastering the laws of nature and knowing how to apply them thru engineering. To do that, the aliens must think like to a significant degree. I have no idea how an alien would look physically though.
    Would a being moving in 2d manage to move in 3d with creating some tech? Maybe.
    Would a being already moving in 3d need a tech to move in 3d? Obviously not.

    Perhaps there are analogies on the macrocosmic level, who knows.
    Λέων μεν ὄνυξι κρατεῖ, κέρασι δε βούς, ἄνθρωπος δε νῷι
    "While the lion prevails with its claws, and the ox through its horns, man does by his thinking"
    Anaxagoras of Klazomenae, 5th century BC










  13. #53

    Default Re: Alien senses, culture and communication with humans

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriakos View Post
    That doesn't seem to be the case, though, cause the humans/human-like beings in the depth of prehistory were (supposedly, and at least in any obvious manner) not that different in traits from the rest of the humanoid creatures argued to be around. They probably did not do many grandiose things either. Sure, they had the ability to move, but so do a myriad other earthy creatures who seem to stay as stupid as they always were.
    They stay as stupid as they need to survive. Hunters tend to be smarter than prey. I would bet that intelligence has increases in both prey and hunters, its all part of the arms race.
    A tree, on the other hand, cannot be said to have that little to gain by developing 'intelligence'. If it could alter the soil in more optimal ways then it would gain. Likewise if it could reposition itself towards the better sunlight. Moreso if it has the ability to calculate larger dispersal distances for its seeds, or more realistic ones when they are dependent on animals moving them around.
    Trees do alter the local chemistry, at least many do, and it doesn't require intelligence. Intelligence is expensive biologically, I can see no evolutionary path were trees would develop it. Human intelligence was a happy accident which must have included some lucky priming mutations and our form as well. Walking upright with free hands is quite helpful for putting intelligence to use. Imagine if we had hooves instead. We are more likely an anomaly than the norm.

    I am not sure if trees don't have some sort of intelligence, although they obviously don't have moving limbs anyway. But to argue that a being develops intelligence cause somehow the organism knows on some level that it will help it, well, sounds more like a gap in a theory rather than a concrete model.
    Not arguing that at all, I'm arguing there is no real path or need for intelligence in some organisms. They don't have a choice in it. Imagine again a very slightly smarter tree. A hint of a nervous system. A slight improvement in a deer may let it flee a fraction of a second faster, saving its life. But in a tree? That slight improvement in the deer can add up over generations, but a tree would see no such benefit.

    For all we know the prehistoric people were for endless millenia in some sort of lucid-dream state mentally-wise, since they did not even have a language or anything resembling an actual set communication (probably even more primitive ones at start than those employed now by apes and monkeys). Such a being is not very likely to evolve out of some cosmic information which makes it prone to develop a new ability; not any more than a dying tree growing wings because it could then fly to a better, nearby soil.
    I don't get why proto-humans matter in this discussion. They were probably chimp like in that, which was good enough at the time. The difference is we are smart enough to ponder space flight and those that might visit us would be as well. We should be smart enough to figure out how to say "hi" to each other.
    "When I die, I want to die peacefully in my sleep, like Fidel Castro, not screaming in terror, like his victims."

    My shameful truth.

  14. #54

    Default Re: Alien senses, culture and communication with humans

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriakos View Post
    Those are all either other beings of the same species (human) or other 3d creatures (and even humanoid in some degree, like those great apes).
    Ape intelligence is produced by analogous brain structures, but intelligent avian brains developed independently.



    Also, we have learned to communicate with ants and spiders through odors. We don't have a lot of interest in what they have to say, but we use our ability to signal them in order to trick and kill them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  15. #55
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    Default Re: Alien senses, culture and communication with humans

    Some types of birds are somewhat intelligent, sure. More notably (afaik, and granted i know very little on this) Crows are quite intelligent next to most other birds.

    Some of them seem to have even read Archimedes



    But there are two issues there, in the context of this thread:

    1) They are still 3d beings (ie the aliens might not be similar anyway)

    2) They do not have a language and neither can we communicate in that level with them.
    Λέων μεν ὄνυξι κρατεῖ, κέρασι δε βούς, ἄνθρωπος δε νῷι
    "While the lion prevails with its claws, and the ox through its horns, man does by his thinking"
    Anaxagoras of Klazomenae, 5th century BC










  16. #56

    Default Re: Alien senses, culture and communication with humans

    The crow above might be the very one that solved a logic puzzle that required seven steps. Clearly the bird is displaying intelligence, and what one member of a species can develop, others can follow. Since I posted that crow video already, there's no sense in doing it again, but is can easily be found on youtube. Similarly crows have been seen and filmed doing things like sledding on snowy rooftops by riding on manmade items. And chimps have witnessed fire building with matches and have replicated their own fires. Since they lack opposable thumbs, good luck with fire plows and bowdrills, but they might manage flint or chert with steel someday.

    Our experiments with animals will certainly help us understand language and how we might communicate with aliens. The thing I most wonder is would alien beings (terrestrial, interdimensional, or extraterrestrial) even bother to speak with us? Perhaps they might feel we are no smarter than chimps based upon our self-destructive behaviour.

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