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Thread: Ulster is Britain

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    Default Ulster is Britain

    Many people seem to buy into the Irish nationalist narrative, that all of Ireland (including Ulster) has throughout its history been culturally, ethnically and politically distinct from the rest of the united Kingdom; save for foreign rule or plantations that were enforced on the Irish people. The modern day British people of Ulster are seen as a colonial population implanted by the British authorities.However, this narrative is in the case of Ulster false.

    For thousands of years, the region has been historically distinct form the rest of Ireland. The earliest maps we have of Ireland describe a people living in the north of the island (modern day Ulster) as 'Cruthin'. This is the exact same word used to describe the Picts of Scotland, a people who spoke a P-Celtic language, as opposed to the Goidilic population of the rest of the island, which spoke a Q-Celtic language. The term Cruthin is used by both early Irish writers, and by Ptolemy's famous map of the island. It is generally believed that the P-Celtic Picts predated the later Q-Celtic arrivals, which were of Spanish descent. Hence, although the term 'Ulster' comes from the Gaelic 'Ulaid' which were regarded as a separate people from the Cruithin, the Cruithin Dál nAraide dynasty referred to themselves as "the true Ulaid", suggesting that they had been displaced by them from eastern Ulster.

    In the dark ages, the Kingdom of Dal Riada spanned both Ulster and western Scotland. It was from these Irish overlords - the 'Scotti', that Scotland takes its name from. In the past, most historians believed that Dal Riada was formed in Scotland through invasion from Ireland, however nowadays it is thought to have come about through shared trade/familial/cultural ties. The thing is, people tend to regard the sea as a dividing line, but this is not always true. The people of western Scotland had a strong naval tradition since the interior land was often rough and hostile. Hence, the sea functions like a highway between Ulster and Scotland, to the point that they were united under one king.Enter into the early medieval period, and the experience of Ulster is again different from the rest of Ireland, but rooted in Scotland. While most of Ireland was planted by Anglo-Norman nobility, Ulster received an influx of Scoto-Norman overlords, which were heavily Gaelicized and owed allegiance to the Scottish rather than English kings. One of the most notable of these was the Mac Eoin Bissett family, which sheltered Robert the Bruce during the Scottish Wars of Independence, and were heavily involved in the later Bruce Wars in Ireland.During this time, many Scots settled in Ulster, having been welcomed by the Irish Lords, often being brought over as mercenaries. The Gallowglasses were often given land in return for military service, and were used to help repopulate the Ulster landscape, which had been devastated by constant warfare and raiding. It is thought that in the medieval period, the population of Ulster was as low as 40,000. Thus, Scottish clans such as the MacDonnell's of Antrim came to have a strong presence in the region. Again, they came to be their through the natural migrations of peoples, via the ancient familial, cultural, trade, and political ties between Ulster and Scotland. So, you can see that Ulster and Scotland were clearly intertwined for the bulk of their history.

    However, many people think that such ties only began with the Plantations - another matter that they do not understand. Now, there were official Plantations set up by the British establishment to colonise Ulster - these were in counties Donegal, Cavan, Monaghan, Tyrone, Fermanagh and Armagh. Irish nationalists argue that the British population of Ulster is an entirely artificial population put in place by these plantations. However, this is nonsense. Of the counties mentioned, Donegal, Monaghan and Cavan are all already in the Republic of Ireland anyway! Note also that Antrim and Down - which include Belfast and the bulk of the modern day Protestant/British area, were never part of the government plantations anyway! So only the three westernmost counties of Northern Ireland were ever part of the government plantations. Even at the time of the plantations, it is thought that they only accounted for 1/3 of the British population of Ulster - the rest were those who had migrated there through existing clan/familial ties.

    So, because of all this, I believe that the Irish nationalist narrative of the British in Ulster is myth, and the rest of the world needs to be aware of this when they try to write thousands of years of history out of existence, and slander the Ulster British/Protestant population as colonists and imperialists..
    Last edited by Garbarsardar; March 15, 2014 at 10:07 AM. Reason: paragraphs

  2. #2
    hellheaven1987's Avatar Comes Domesticorum
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    Default Re: Ulster is Britain

    So we are discussing whether Ulster should be under administration of Province of Ireland or Province of England in EU?
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    Default Re: Ulster is Britain

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    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Call me Ishmael
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    Default Re: Ulster is Britain

    You could say the English presence in Ireland began with the Norman invasion, but I believe the English have been around NI long enough to be considered part and parcel of the native population. The Troubles are over, so the Irish more or less feel the same way. It's all part of the EU now anyhow. I'm living in Belfast at the moment, so after speaking with plenty of people about this, it's the general consensus (even though they don't like to talk about it, being so close to the bone and everything).

    Also, could you please break up your opening post into paragraphs? It's hard to digest an enormous wall of text.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Ulster is Britain

    I always take care to format my posts. For some reason, it will not appear as I have formatted it, and I have lost all the formatting options that are normally displayed above the text box. So yeah my thread has been kind of ruined by this.

  6. #6
    Copperknickers II's Avatar quaeri, si sapis
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    Default Re: Ulster is Britain

    Fair enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caledonian Rhyfelwyr View Post
    Many people seem to buy into the Irish nationalist narrative, that all of Ireland (including Ulster) has throughout its history been culturally, ethnically and politically distinct from the rest of the united Kingdom; save for foreign rule or plantations that were enforced on the Irish people. The modern day British people of Ulster are seen as a colonial population implanted by the British authorities.However, this narrative is in the case of Ulster false. For thousands of years, the region has been historically distinct form the rest of Ireland.

    The earliest maps we have of Ireland describe a people living in the north of the island (modern day Ulster) as 'Cruthin'. This is the exact same word used to describe the Picts of Scotland, a people who spoke a P-Celtic language, as opposed to the Goidilic population of the rest of the island, which spoke a Q-Celtic language. The term Cruthin is used by both early Irish writers, and by Ptolemy's famous map of the island. It is generally believed that the P-Celtic Picts predated the later Q-Celtic arrivals, which were of Spanish descent. Hence, although the term 'Ulster' comes from the Gaelic 'Ulaid' which were regarded as a separate people from the Cruithin, the Cruithin Dál nAraide dynasty referred to themselves as "the true Ulaid", suggesting that they had been displaced by them from eastern Ulster.

    In the dark ages, the Kingdom of Dal Riada spanned both Ulster and western Scotland. It was from these Irish overlords - the 'Scotti', that Scotland takes its name from. In the past, most historians believed that Dal Riada was formed in Scotland through invasion from Ireland, however nowadays it is thought to have come about through shared trade/familial/cultural ties. The thing is, people tend to regard the sea as a dividing line, but this is not always true. The people of western Scotland had a strong naval tradition since the interior land was often rough and hostile. Hence, the sea functions like a highway between Ulster and Scotland, to the point that they were united under one king.

    Enter into the early medieval period, and the experience of Ulster is again different from the rest of Ireland, but rooted in Scotland. While most of Ireland was planted by Anglo-Norman nobility, Ulster received an influx of Scoto-Norman overlords, which were heavily Gaelicized and owed allegiance to the Scottish rather than English kings. One of the most notable of these was the Mac Eoin Bissett family, which sheltered Robert the Bruce during the Scottish Wars of Independence, and were heavily involved in the later Bruce Wars in Ireland. During this time, many Scots settled in Ulster, having been welcomed by the Irish Lords, often being brought over as mercenaries. The Gallowglasses were often given land in return for military service, and were used to help repopulate the Ulster landscape, which had been devastated by constant warfare and raiding. It is thought that in the medieval period, the population of Ulster was as low as 40,000. Thus, Scottish clans such as the MacDonnell's of Antrim came to have a strong presence in the region. Again, they came to be their through the natural migrations of peoples, via the ancient familial, cultural, trade, and political ties between Ulster and Scotland.

    So, you can see that Ulster and Scotland were clearly intertwined for the bulk of their history. However, many people think that such ties only began with the Plantations - another matter that they do not understand. Now, there were official Plantations set up by the British establishment to colonise Ulster - these were in counties Donegal, Cavan, Monaghan, Tyrone, Fermanagh and Armagh. Irish nationalists argue that the British population of Ulster is an entirely artificial population put in place by these plantations. However, this is nonsense. Of the counties mentioned, Donegal, Monaghan and Cavan are all already in the Republic of Ireland anyway! Note also that Antrim and Down - which include Belfast and the bulk of the modern day Protestant/British area, were never part of the government plantations anyway! So only the three westernmost counties of Northern Ireland were ever part of the government plantations. Even at the time of the plantations, it is thought that they only accounted for 1/3 of the British population of Ulster - the rest were those who had migrated there through existing clan/familial ties.

    So, because of all this, I believe that the Irish nationalist narrative of the British in Ulster is myth, and the rest of the world needs to be aware of this when they try to write thousands of years of history out of existence, and slander the Ulster British/Protestant population as colonists and imperialists..
    Very interesting read. Although it seems to hinge on the assumption that its links with Scotland makes it British, which some, including myself, might disagree with. Personally, as a proud Celtic F.C. fan, I would be happy to welcome Northern Ireland into an independent Scotland, seeing as I effectively grew up in a somewhat sanitised version of Belfast. Ireland and Scotland are indeed very much linked, though I can't quite see the link between that and Ulster being British.

    One question though: you say the plantations were mainly in rural areas in the West of Ulster: looking at a map of Ireland, I can't see any major cities in the Northern half of the island except Belfast. Assuming that Ireland shared a similar 19th Century with the rest of the British isles, wouldn't a large number of those plantation populations have moved East with the advent of industrialisation? Afaik, the Ulster Scots language's main stronghold is in the East rather than in Donegal.
    Last edited by Copperknickers II; March 15, 2014 at 08:33 AM.
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  7. #7
    Garbarsardar's Avatar Et Slot i et slot
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    Default Re: Ulster is Britain

    Paragraphs fixed. If there is any problem, PM me.
    Thanks,
    garb.

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    knight of meh's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Ulster is Britain

    Down, Antrim and Londonderry this is where the Cruthin were distinct , early sorces maintain a difference between the Cruthin and the Ulaid.

    the true Ulaid came about because of two dynasties internally ..

    Their ruling dynasties included the Dál nAraidi in southern Antrim and the Uí Echach Cobo in western Down.

    also there domain wasn't Ulster , Ulster includes in current geography;

    Antrim (UK)
    Armagh (UK)
    Cavan (Ireland)
    Donegal (Ireland)
    Down (UK)
    Fermanagh (UK)
    Londonderry (UK)
    Monaghan (Ireland)
    Tyrone (UK)

    so they ruled maybe 3 counties out of 9

    finally Britain was never a political word it was always a geographic term to refer to Scotland Wales and England ...

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    Default Re: Ulster is Britain

    If the link with the Scottish make it somehow British, then by that exact same logic Scotland is Ireland.
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    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: Ulster is Britain

    If Ulster is English then Scotland is Irish, France is German, Spain is Moroccan, Egypt is Iranian and half the coast-line of Europe is Greek.

    The fact remains that Ulster was and is culturally, geographically and economically Irish and no amount of mental gymnastics is going to change that. Only reason why it is still a part of Britain is religion, and that is due solely to the English colonization of the region.
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    Default Re: Ulster is Britain

    Ireland has always been screwed by religion.
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  12. #12
    Col. Tartleton's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Ulster is Britain

    Scottish Colonization, not English. James I was a bonny lad loving Scot.
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  13. #13

    Default Re: Ulster is Britain

    Quote Originally Posted by Copperknickers II View Post
    Very interesting read. Although it seems to hinge on the assumption that its links with Scotland makes it British, which some, including myself, might disagree with. Personally, as a proud Celtic F.C. fan, I would be happy to welcome Northern Ireland into an independent Scotland, seeing as I effectively grew up in a somewhat sanitised version of Belfast. Ireland and Scotland are indeed very much linked, though I can't quite see the link between that and Ulster being British.
    Well, my primary point was that the history that shaped modern Ulster lies as much with Scotland as it does with Ireland. I would however say that the Scottish influence in Ulster was distinctly British in nature - it was actually Clan Campbell that petitioned King Charles for the Scottish settlers in Ulster to be referred to as 'British' in official documentation (due in part to concerns that English settlers might otherwise be given preferential treatment). In those days, they really regarded themselves as British. I have another thread about that planned...

    Quote Originally Posted by Copperknickers II View Post
    One question though: you say the plantations were mainly in rural areas in the West of Ulster: looking at a map of Ireland, I can't see any major cities in the Northern half of the island except Belfast. Assuming that Ireland shared a similar 19th Century with the rest of the British isles, wouldn't a large number of those plantation populations have moved East with the advent of industrialisation? Afaik, the Ulster Scots language's main stronghold is in the East rather than in Donegal.
    Yeah that is an interesting point. I am not quite sure how the demographic shifts came about, to be honest. As for Ulster Scots remaining distinct in certain regions, I think that must be because these were settled most heavily by Scottish (as opposed to English) settlers. IIRC English settlers were more likely to be merchants or artisans, so they settled in towns and cities, while Scots were somewhat more likely to settle in rural areas, so this divide may have left some isolated pockets of particularly Scottish influence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    If Ulster is English then Scotland is Irish, France is German, Spain is Moroccan, Egypt is Iranian and half the coast-line of Europe is Greek.

    The fact remains that Ulster was and is culturally, geographically and economically Irish and no amount of mental gymnastics is going to change that. Only reason why it is still a part of Britain is religion, and that is due solely to the English colonization of the region.
    What nonsense. I gave you clear historical facts, not "mental gymnastics". But I would be really curious to see your own case for Ulster falling entirely in the realm of Irish history, culture and politics throughout its whole history, and the mental gymnastics you would need to pull off to do that.

    As my post demonstrated, Ulster has always been tied to Scotland by culture, politics, ethnicity and religion. In this regard, it differs significantly from the rest of Ireland, and this history provides a strong case for viewing Ulster as a distinct entity within the island.

    Quote Originally Posted by Col. Tartleton View Post
    Scottish Colonization, not English. James I was a bonny lad loving Scot.
    Scottish and English. James planned to keep a 50/50 balance between the two, and he decreed the plantations in his capacity as King of England, working through the English Parliament and English landowners/settlers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phier View Post
    If the link with the Scottish make it somehow British, then by that exact same logic Scotland is Ireland.
    I have no problem recognizing the shared history between the two. Scotland was known as 'Hibernia Minor' in the early medieval period for a reason.

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    mishkin's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Ulster is Britain

    Quote Originally Posted by Caledonian Rhyfelwyr View Post
    As my post demonstrated, Ulster has always been tied to Scotland by culture, politics, ethnicity and religion. In this regard, it differs significantly from the rest of Ireland, and this history provides a strong case for viewing Ulster as a distinct entity within the island.
    The influence of the rest of Ireland over Ulster has been less than the influence of Scotland?

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    Default Re: Ulster is Britain

    The British in Northern Ireland (NI and Ulster are not synonymous) have been regarded as conquerors and colonists because that is the way they have acted for centuries towards the natives and continue to act that way in more ways than one.
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    As my post demonstrated, Ulster has always been tied to Scotland by culture, politics, ethnicity and religion. In this regard, it differs significantly from the rest of Ireland, and this history provides a strong case for viewing Ulster as a distinct entity within the island.
    Every province has had a distinct history. Northern Ireland has a long history of being systematically colonised over a long period of time, so what. A successful invasion that the British in Northern Ireland are understandably very proud of. All hail the mighty conquerors.
    Always is a very long time, something that is not demonstrable by definition. Chonnacht has had a long history of relations with Iberia and the Berbers, with a degree of immigration, immigration is different from invading/colonization because invaders impose their culture on the areas they come to, as seen in NI, not seen in Chonnacht. Leinster saw massive colonization from Denmark, but the Danes embraced Irish culture. Northern Ireland is distinct, somewhat distinct by family ties/alliances/marriages, systematic colonization and imposition of foreign culture over many hundreds of years, it's the same relationship many other provinces in Ireland had with other countries, the distinction is the scale of colonization and the conqueror mentality of the colonists/immigrants/invaders/belated-natives/whatever you want to call them, the same mentality that endures to today whether they admit it or not.
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    Default Re: Ulster is Britain

    Quote Originally Posted by Phier View Post
    If the link with the Scottish make it somehow British, then by that exact same logic Scotland is Ireland.
    I suspect this was a bait because it is true, in some revisionist way.

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    Default Re: Ulster is Britain

    Quote Originally Posted by Caledonian Rhyfelwyr View Post
    As my post demonstrated, Ulster has always been tied to Scotland by culture, politics, ethnicity and religion. In this regard, it differs significantly from the rest of Ireland, and this history provides a strong case for viewing Ulster as a distinct entity within the island.
    With this is mind, what kind of effect do you think that Scottish independence, were it to happen, would have on politics in Northern Ireland? Also, seeing as you've effectively made the case that Ulster forms quite a distinct polity within the UK, is there any real push in Ulster for greater recognition of this? I.e. through greater devolution etc.
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    Default Re: Ulster is Britain

    Whilst I see Ulster as a historical injustice, it is really too late to do anything about it, unless the British in NI suddenly have a change of heart it will remain a similar situation to North America, Prussia, Israel, etc.

    Maybe it is not the rightful ownership but what can be done about it? Nothing except try and convince the locals that Ireland is a better governor than the UK. Frankly I wish we could get rid of them and let the Republic feed their ravenous taste for public spending and battered police officers.
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    Default Re: Ulster is Britain

    Quote Originally Posted by Gatsby View Post
    Frankly I wish we could get rid of them and let the Republic feed their ravenous taste for public spending and battered police officers.
    Nah, you can keep it. We don't want it.
    The only people who want it seem to be more than a little crazy: I say let them have it, maybe put dynamite along the border, blow it from the rest of Ireland and push it out to sea. It's more trouble than it's worth.
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    Copperknickers II's Avatar quaeri, si sapis
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    Default Re: Ulster is Britain

    Quote Originally Posted by Caledonian Rhyfelwyr View Post
    Well, my primary point was that the history that shaped modern Ulster lies as much with Scotland as it does with Ireland. I would however say that the Scottish influence in Ulster was distinctly British in nature - it was actually Clan Campbell that petitioned King Charles for the Scottish settlers in Ulster to be referred to as 'British' in official documentation (due in part to concerns that English settlers might otherwise be given preferential treatment). In those days, they really regarded themselves as British. I have another thread about that planned...
    The Campbells... that would be the clan that to this day are hated by many Scottish people for being traitors who sided with the Brit sympathisers and Calvinists, and who massacred several hundred people for disagreeing with them. :S
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