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Thread: Sexism to become a legal offence

  1. #101
    YuriVII's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Sexism to become a legal offence

    HAHAHAHA, what a stupid law. That women needs to get her head out of her and make someone a sandwich.

  2. #102
    sabaku_no_gaara's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
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    Default Re: Sexism to become a legal offence

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    Why not?

    You also do it with men? (i.e. : hey stranger, you have a splendid body, is noticed you frequent the gym). Or you just appreciate openly a person's sexual attractiveness?

    Unfortunately, the line between flattering and embarrasssing is very fuzzy for the majority. And unfortunately, for many people an attractive woman is something that is there to be seen and valued (and "assaulted", if I may use the expression). Have you seen Sabaku's video?
    I would like to add to this by linking david wong from Cracked's verry well thought out article:

    5 ways modern men are trained to hate woman

    you should all read the entire thing, it's an eye opener

  3. #103
    Seether's Avatar RoTK Workhorse
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    Default Re: Sexism to become a legal offence

    Quote Originally Posted by Hekko View Post
    [Seether, with all due respect, but it's obvious that you do not understand micro-economics and that you are trying to slither your way out of it by redefining the word productivity (even when it has a widely accepted definition)... Anyway, your idea of productivity is wrong, and at the risk of sounding patronising the stuff Timoleon is saying is perfectly correct. You quite clearly do not know how companies do optimisation, or choose to ignore your knowledge in order to make your argument.
    Why, because I disagree with you? If economics were as simple as you say it is, then why are there several different schools of thought and practice on it? Besides, as I already said, what I posted was theoretical (but again that went over both your heads... or you chose to ignore it). And with all due respect, you and Timoleon are not experts at either economics or reading comprehension, so stop being "matter-of-fact" with your own theories of economics. I was being civil with you, and him, until typical Mudpit stupidity and sanctimonious "expert analysis" kicked in.
    Last edited by Seether; March 15, 2014 at 10:23 AM.
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  4. #104

    Default Re: Sexism to become a legal offence

    Quote Originally Posted by Slydessertfox View Post
    You can most certainly ban racism and sexism in the sense of not having them protected by the law and having racist acts banned (for the record, I don't thin this law is very well thought out or worded and is by its nature somewhat sexist). Just because there are racists doesn't mean its not possible to prevent them from using their racism to discriminate and disenfranchise others. Same goes for sexism.
    This isn't banning sexist acts, that'd be a law enforcing equal pay or banning sexual assault. This is a law outright banning sexism, such as making a sexist joke or looking strangely at a woman.

  5. #105
    Hekko's Avatar Centenarius
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    Default Re: Sexism to become a legal offence

    Quote Originally Posted by Seether View Post
    Why, because I disagree with you? If economics were as simple as you say it is, then why are there several different schools of thought and practice on it? Besides, as I already said, what I posted was theoretical (but again that went over both your heads... or you chose to ignore it). And with all due respect, you and Timoleon are not experts at either economics or reading comprehension, so stop being "matter-of-fact" with your own theories of economics. I was being civil with you, and him, until typical Mudpit stupidity and sanctimonious "expert analysis" kicked in.
    Not because you disagree with us, but because you are quite obviously in the wrong here. Productivity is something well defined. And optimisation is not done on a binary scale of job done - job not done.

    Basic economics are as simple as I make it out to be. Economics are immensely complex, which is why you will find different schools on economics. Nevertheless, the basics are widely agreed upon by everyone (and this is basic economics). However, the fact that you argue this sort of reveals the fact that you are not that well versed with economics, because your belief is widely held by people who have not studied it (i.e. that all economics are debatable).

    Uh, you're the one arguing on a theoretical level? I pretty much all out admitted in my post that I was arguing theory, but then qualified it why the effect would still exist even though not to the absurd degree I painted up in the model.

    Do you deny that most implies that things are of an order of magnitude? Do you deny that get the job done implies a binary outcome? Do you deny having said these things? I do not claim to be an expert on reading comprehension, but here your argument did do a head turn on itself.

    You cannot really dismiss my statement as theories. When you have not really even built an argument for why there would be a gender-pay-gap. Secondly, if you want to disown the theory, please illustrate where the reasoning is flawed, (mind you we are playing theories here, so US EO law is not even half an argument here). I wish you good luck, because the only assumption made here really is that people are looking to maximize their wealth and do so in a rational manner.

  6. #106
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    Default Re: Sexism to become a legal offence

    Quote Originally Posted by Hekko View Post
    Not because you disagree with us, but because you are quite obviously in the wrong here. Productivity is something well defined. And optimisation is not done on a binary scale of job done - job not done.

    Basic economics are as simple as I make it out to be. Economics are immensely complex, which is why you will find different schools on economics. Nevertheless, the basics are widely agreed upon by everyone (and this is basic economics). However, the fact that you argue this sort of reveals the fact that you are not that well versed with economics, because your belief is widely held by people who have not studied it (i.e. that all economics are debatable).

    Uh, you're the one arguing on a theoretical level? I pretty much all out admitted in my post that I was arguing theory, but then qualified it why the effect would still exist even though not to the absurd degree I painted up in the model.

    Do you deny that most implies that things are of an order of magnitude? Do you deny that get the job done implies a binary outcome? Do you deny having said these things? I do not claim to be an expert on reading comprehension, but here your argument did do a head turn on itself.

    You cannot really dismiss my statement as theories. When you have not really even built an argument for why there would be a gender-pay-gap. Secondly, if you want to disown the theory, please illustrate where the reasoning is flawed, (mind you we are playing theories here, so US EO law is not even half an argument here). I wish you good luck, because the only assumption made here really is that people are looking to maximize their wealth and do so in a rational manner.
    Two simple questions: Does "productive," in reference to an individual worker/employee, necessarily have the exact same meaning as "productivity"? Can "productivity" have different meanings?
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  7. #107
    sabaku_no_gaara's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
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    Default Re: Sexism to become a legal offence

    Quote Originally Posted by Hekko View Post
    Not because you disagree with us, but because you are quite obviously in the wrong here. Productivity is something well defined. And optimisation is not done on a binary scale of job done - job not done.

    Basic economics are as simple as I make it out to be. Economics are immensely complex, which is why you will find different schools on economics. Nevertheless, the basics are widely agreed upon by everyone (and this is basic economics). However, the fact that you argue this sort of reveals the fact that you are not that well versed with economics, because your belief is widely held by people who have not studied it (i.e. that all economics are debatable).

    Uh, you're the one arguing on a theoretical level? I pretty much all out admitted in my post that I was arguing theory, but then qualified it why the effect would still exist even though not to the absurd degree I painted up in the model.

    Do you deny that most implies that things are of an order of magnitude? Do you deny that get the job done implies a binary outcome? Do you deny having said these things? I do not claim to be an expert on reading comprehension, but here your argument did do a head turn on itself.

    You cannot really dismiss my statement as theories. When you have not really even built an argument for why there would be a gender-pay-gap. Secondly, if you want to disown the theory, please illustrate where the reasoning is flawed, (mind you we are playing theories here, so US EO law is not even half an argument here). I wish you good luck, because the only assumption made here really is that people are looking to maximize their wealth and do so in a rational manner.
    You can't just judge a business on productivity alone. I don't know about your place, but if you start studying management, an important part of the curriculum is: Corporate social responsibility.

    A business can't just maximize it's wealth, and look purely at numbres and productivity it has certain obligation towards society as well.

    Otherwise there wouldn't be a legally set minimum wage
    Or automatic wage raise as soon as certain commodities become more expensive (Belgium has the index system, when certain common goods become more expensive to buy, the index rises, this means that all wages in all sectors automatically rise with the index to ensure people keep their "purchase power", landlords are allowed to index the rent as well, meaning rents are allowed to rise with the index)
    or quota and recommendations regarding employees of the other gender, other races or with disabilities.
    or government stepping in and forcing energy companies to freeze their prices when too many people can't afford to pay them

    etc...

    This whole machinelike train of thought with pure numbres and ratio completely forgets that humans are, well humans, with certain rights and not programmable machines.

    Profit is important obviously, but society and the general populace are far more important! And social responsibility should always outweigh profit.

  8. #108
    KngGilgamesh's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: Sexism to become a legal offence

    Isn't the whole point that women and men are equal in all germane ways but women are paid less? If so then it is logical to assume that an organization can save a lot of money by employing only women without any downsides. The issue of productivity is moot. If the males were more productive than females, it means that the females replacing them must be as productive. It is not as if males are inherently more productive because that would make the first statement false, and justify wage disparity. If a company can't find as productive female workers than the company must do a cost benefit analysis to determine what it values most, the difference in productivity or the difference in wages.

  9. #109

    Default Re: Sexism to become a legal offence

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    Why not?

    You also do it with men? (i.e. : hey stranger, you have a splendid body, is noticed you frequent the gym). Or you just appreciate openly a person's sexual attractiveness?

    Unfortunately, the line between flattering and embarrasssing is very fuzzy for the majority. And unfortunately, for many people an attractive woman is something that is there to be seen and valued (and "assaulted", if I may use the expression). Have you seen Sabaku's video?

    So ?It s just words,if somone doesn t like they can ignore it.

    I ve never been told by a woman that I am sexist,if I say she s looking hot.She either giggles and thanks me,or ignore me and moves on.

    But yeah I guess,it s also about mentality,here in Romania men are still men and women are still women,not like in Western Europe/USA where men are tending to become metrosexuals and women are starting to behave like dykes.

  10. #110
    Hekko's Avatar Centenarius
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    Default Re: Sexism to become a legal offence

    Quote Originally Posted by Seether View Post
    Two simple questions: Does "productive," in reference to an individual worker/employee, necessarily have the exact same meaning as "productivity"? Can "productivity" have different meanings?
    If you stick most infront of productive then yes. Productivity cannot have multiple meanings, in the sense that it always references efficiency.

    Quote Originally Posted by sabaku_no_gaara View Post
    You can't just judge a business on productivity alone. I don't know about your place, but if you start studying management, an important part of the curriculum is: Corporate social responsibility.

    A business can't just maximize it's wealth, and look purely at numbres and productivity it has certain obligation towards society as well.
    CSR is an interesting subject. Hate to break it to you though, it's a marketing scheme. People do CSR because they have made the estimation that it will appeal to the end-users (i.e. consumers) and that they can increase their profits by increasing their revenue more than their costs by engaging in CSR.

    Quote Originally Posted by sabaku_no_gaara View Post
    Otherwise there wouldn't be a legally set minimum wage
    Or automatic wage raise as soon as certain commodities become more expensive (Belgium has the index system, when certain common goods become more expensive to buy, the index rises, this means that all wages in all sectors automatically rise with the index to ensure people keep their "purchase power", landlords are allowed to index the rent as well, meaning rents are allowed to rise with the index)
    Not CSR, legal compliance.


    Quote Originally Posted by sabaku_no_gaara View Post
    or quota and recommendations regarding employees of the other gender, other races or with disabilities.
    Special interest lobby groups. (Don't get me wrong, I believe diversity is a source of competitive advantage, but that does not mean that it has to be legislated.)

    Quote Originally Posted by sabaku_no_gaara View Post
    or government stepping in and forcing energy companies to freeze their prices when too many people can't afford to pay them

    etc...
    Legal compliance.

    Quote Originally Posted by sabaku_no_gaara View Post
    This whole machinelike train of thought with pure numbres and ratio completely forgets that humans are, well humans, with certain rights and not programmable machines.

    Profit is important obviously, but society and the general populace are far more important! And social responsibility should always outweigh profit.
    As I said, it's a marketing tool. To make use of an analogy from the popular Goldman Sachs Elevator gossip twitter feed. "No one would run a marathon if they had to sign a non-disclosure agreement." It's the same with CSR mostly, no one would do it if they couldn't market the fact that they are acting responsibly. So the peg does indeed fit, it's just that you did not see the way the peg was supposed to be put in. Don't get me wrong, I think it's great that the CONSUMERS take take their responsibility and change the way to make profit for companies, but corporate social responsibility as such is a bit of a hoax, corporations just react to consumer preferences. Sure there are probably some genuinely nice corporations, the same way people surely run marathons for their own benefit, but on the balance...
    Last edited by Hekko; March 15, 2014 at 12:00 PM.

  11. #111
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    Default Re: Sexism to become a legal offence

    Quote Originally Posted by Seether
    Two simple questions: Does "productive," in reference to an individual worker/employee, necessarily have the exact same meaning as "productivity"? Can "productivity" have different meanings?
    Quote Originally Posted by Hekko View Post
    If you stick most infront of productive then yes. Productivity cannot have multiple meanings, in the sense that it always references efficiency.
    ORLY?

    Productive:
    adjective \prə-ˈdək-tiv, prō-\

    : doing or achieving a lot : working hard and getting good results
    : producing or able to produce something especially in large amounts
    : causing or resulting in something
    So saying "most productive," in reference to an individual, cannot mean they achieve a lot; it can only be in reference to their efficiency? Okay...

    So, being that you are entirely wrong about the term "productive," and in conjunction with what you said about "productivity," you just proved my original point for me. I spoke theoretically about productive individuals and a corporation's productivity, but you want to attack me on the basis that I am "obviously wrong" and that I "do not understand." Funny how the tables got turned. How's that crow taste?
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  12. #112

    Default Re: Sexism to become a legal offence

    Quote Originally Posted by sabaku_no_gaara View Post
    I would like to add to this by linking david wong from Cracked's verry well thought out article:

    5 ways modern men are trained to hate woman

    you should all read the entire thing, it's an eye opener
    I wonder if this guy thought writing this crap was going to get him laid.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  13. #113
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    Default Re: Sexism to become a legal offence

    Quote Originally Posted by Andreius Pretorianus View Post
    So ?It s just words,if somone doesn t like they can ignore it.

    I ve never been told by a woman that I am sexist,if I say she s looking hot.She either giggles and thanks me,or ignore me and moves on.

    But yeah I guess,it s also about mentality,here in Romania men are still men and women are still women,not like in Western Europe/USA where men are tending to become metrosexuals and women are starting to behave like dykes.
    You do realise that your last remark is quite sexist right? And it's also hate speech towards Lesbians

  14. #114

    Default Re: Sexism to become a legal offence

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    I wonder if this guy thought writing this crap was going to get him laid.

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  15. #115
    trance's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Sexism to become a legal offence

    Can naturally not speak for the U.K. or the USA.

  16. #116
    Seether's Avatar RoTK Workhorse
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    Default Re: Sexism to become a legal offence

    Quote Originally Posted by Phier View Post
    Maybe that should be the banner for the Mudpit?
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  17. #117
    Manco's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Sexism to become a legal offence

    The saddest part about this isn't really how dumb of a law it is, and it is a dumb law as it covers nothing that defamation and harassment laws don't or couldn't cover with some minor adjustments, but that this is a result of the far too common phenomenon of emo politics.
    Lawmakers don't have a vision or project for the justice system anymore. No, they wait for a scandal the media gets all in a tiff about, then make some half assed statements that basically boil down to the Belgian version "Won't someone think of the children" though it's less children and more middle class kneejerk socio-conservative liberals (I had to made up that word because I can't think of one that describes people who change political affiliations to whatever gives them the opportunity for most drama).
    And then two years later they finally realize those halfassed statements were actually taken serious and now they're stuck with idiot, laws. And worst of all, the very people that demanded these laws in the first place, will now attack the lawmakers for having made retarded laws that outlaws some of their idiot behaviour.

  18. #118
    Hekko's Avatar Centenarius
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    Default Re: Sexism to become a legal offence

    Quote Originally Posted by Seether View Post
    ORLY?

    Productive:


    So saying "most productive," in reference to an individual, cannot mean they achieve a lot; it can only be in reference to their efficiency? Okay...

    So, being that you are entirely wrong about the term "productive," and in conjunction with what you said about "productivity," you just proved my original point for me. I spoke theoretically about productive individuals and a corporation's productivity, but you want to attack me on the basis that I am "obviously wrong" and that I "do not understand." Funny how the tables got turned. How's that crow taste?
    Hate to rain down excrement on your parade. But if you put most to productive it becomes a relative thing, wherein you compare productivities. Hell, even if I completely capitulate here (which I don't because it's blatantly obvious you used it in a relative way), you still are in a peculiar situation because you then profess ignorance of opportunity costs in your statement about 50% etc. which once again returns us to you not really understanding the slightest bit about micro-economics.

    Anyway, this discussion is fairly pointless, because it's slid into discussing fairly meaningless semantics (because you suddenly felt an urge to change your position) rather than you actually addressing the actual economic mechanisms at hand. I suggest you do that in order for this discussion to be meaningful.

  19. #119
    Vanoi's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Sexism to become a legal offence

    i'm curious on how to this will actually stop sexism. You can't ban things like sexism, you can only teach those not the act that way. Its like trying to ban racism. Just not going to work.
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    While you are at it, allow Germany to rearm, it's not like they committed the worst atrocity in modern history, so having a strong army can't lead to anything pitiful.

  20. #120

    Default Re: Sexism to become a legal offence

    Quote Originally Posted by sabaku_no_gaara View Post
    You do realise that your last remark is quite sexist right? And it's also hate speech towards Lesbians
    sexims is not a real thing.At least not in my country.We don t view things like that...It s just an excuse for women to whine about how discriminated they are until they get some big fat cheks.

    WAKE UP,sexim,racism,modern slavery is almolst gone in the euro-american zone.

    3 world places like India/Africa/Asia are the places where these things truly happen,why don t the freaking ADL and other organisations don t focalise on those regions ?

    It s because people there aren t dumb enough to accept these excuses of a law and will not submit to such requests.

    And why not make ALL slurs and negative comments illegal? Why don t we freaking ban every negative comment of everyone on every topic ?

    Then everything bad would simply dissapear no?Cmon stop with this nonsence

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