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Thread: Economic System, explanations elusive?

  1. #81

    Default Re: Economic System, explanations elusive?

    Last evening I tried Bithynia for the first time. At the first turn I have besieged rebel town just east from me on the Black Sea. Next turn diplomatic information came that we signed a ceasefire ( I thought ceasefire with rebels is not possible..as your diplomat can not make it, just bribe them). So, in order to investigate if it is scripted somehow for the first turn, or if it is bug, I started campaign again. Recruited full roster of some cheaper troops at first turn and waited next few turns to see what will happen. Now, I remained in the war with rebels, but no matter I had only one province, and full stack army, my treasury went from starting 5 k (H/M) to more than 70 k in few turns. Now..this must be scripted, right? To put player out of the dept or something? While playing Europa Barbarorum, it was big and unrealistic problem, as you know, that you are in terrible debt if starting as small nation, but latter on, as you have bigger empire and take care about your development a bit you are floating in millions, and by mid game it becomes unrealistically easy.


    But as much as EB thing was unrealistic, this RS script is also bit too much if is true. Having one province and full stack army and sitting there doing nothing for few turns, I guess you should not get 70 k?



    And one more question...having trading rights do not increase your trade with that faction as far as I can see in trading summary...it is basically just for improving your diplomatic relations, right?

    PS. one more economy question - how many free upkeep units you get if they are in garrison?
    Last edited by 4th Regiment; September 20, 2015 at 04:37 AM.
    Tribal Total War

  2. #82

    Default Re: Economic System, explanations elusive?

    Last evening I tried Bithynia for the first time. At the first turn I have besieged rebel town just east from me on the Black Sea. Next turn diplomatic information came that we signed a ceasefire ( I thought ceasefire with rebels is not possible..as your diplomat can not make it, just bribe them). So, in order to investigate if it is scripted somehow for the first turn, or if it is bug, I started campaign again.
    Well, if you had tried the same thing again, it would've happened again. It is a scripted event that, whenever the next turn begins, a one-region nation is automatically put into a ceasefire with everyone. The intention is to prevent nations from being totally wiped out before you have a chance to fight them. So in the end, you won't just be fighting Romans everywhere, or Greek City-States, Gallaecci, Dacians, whatever. To give them a little boost, they also get extra money from the script, even if they have not one but a small number of regions below some limit (8 regions, let's say, I don't know exactly). Similarly, if they're larger than another limit (above 12 or 15 regions, roughly) they are penalized somewhat, as well as if the money sitting in the treasury becomes too large no matter how many regions they have.

    (So, some quick advice: spend all of the money you can, always. Don't let it just accumulate. In addition to the treasury script, governors also improve their traits more if they're keeping themselves busy by constructing stuff. Being the governor when a building is present -- and often having full movement points, meaning you're not switching governors around constantly -- is a trigger for a whole lot of good stuff your governors can get. So focus on making more buildings constantly (ones that you want anyway), to reap the maximum benefits for all of your governors over the long run; it's really not about only the effects mentioned in the building descriptions themselves, since the game interface doesn't even try to tell you all of the hidden effects various things have. Just do things that make sense, and you'll generally be rewarded for it. And Faction Leaders will have good faction-wide effects on all governors, if the economy is generally growing in this way -- not if it's stagnant since you've hoarded lots of cash like a monarch or a capitalist who isn't doing anything useful for the society. Of course, you don't earn interest on anything you've saved, there is no inflation, you don't control prices or wages, etc., because it's not that sort of a game.)

    Anyway, various effects like this are meant to regulate the economic and strategic conditions, to make it more stable so things don't get out of hand too fast. It works as intended generally, but because of the auto-ceasefire, to get the ball rolling for a one-region nation, you have to know about that and act accordingly. It's sort of a bug, but it's unavoidable in order to prevent premature extinctions. (The whole family can still die out in a single turn, eliminating the faction without your intervention, but that's very unlikely.) So, you have to recruit some spies to open the doors for you, in order to take your second settlement immediately. (Pay attention to the odds of opening the gates -- you could add more spies, train them up for a while, or if you're really patient restart the game to try again with the low odds.) Or if you can do so, recruit a ballista or catapult unit to break the gates/walls, in order to do essentially the same thing. From then on, you can of course take your time besieging settlements if you want, with the besieging army starving them out, provoking them to counter-attack, or probably making battering-rams/ladders/etc. Whatever you like to do in normal situations. Anyway, use your spies or siege engines to do it at the start of the game, because otherwise it cannot happen if you only have one region.

    The AI faces the same troubles: in many of my campaigns, Sparta AI is generally fluctuating back and forth between one and two settlements (and starting wars and stopping them), because they simply don't plan for the fact that they can't conquer their second region using "normal" AI methods, if it has any walls. Fortunately, several cities around them don't start with walls (perhaps one or two near Bithynia too, I would want to check that), so they can be taken immediately by any army. Sometimes Sparta has expanded a bit more, but the big boys in the neighborhood -- Free Greeks, Macedon, Rome, even Pergamon -- often squash them back down to size, despite how good the Spartan infantry is. Then they're stuck in a rut forever, unless they happen to recruit a catapult unit and can hold on to their new settlement long enough to continue expanding.

    PS. one more economy question - how many free upkeep units you get if they are in garrison?
    You mean like the free garrisons (which are only specific unit types) in Medieval 2? None. They're never free. They always have the same upkeep. I don't think Rome TW has a mechanism like that, so the mod couldn't do it either if it were desirable.
    Last edited by Ovidius Empiricus; September 20, 2015 at 07:50 AM.

  3. #83

    Default Re: Economic System, explanations elusive?

    Quote Originally Posted by 4th Regiment View Post
    Last evening I tried Bithynia for the first time. At the first turn I have besieged rebel town just east from me on the Black Sea. Next turn diplomatic information came that we signed a ceasefire ( I thought ceasefire with rebels is not possible..as your diplomat can not make it, just bribe them).
    That's because it's not the standard Slave faction you're used to but an actual faction called Rebels or whatever.

    One is called Free People, and the other is Rebels... something like that. This is for non-Rome campaigns (Rome has the Roman Rebels which are very specific)

    Quote Originally Posted by 4th Regiment View Post
    but no matter I had only one province, and full stack army, my treasury went from starting 5 k (H/M) to more than 70 k in few turns. Now..this must be scripted, right? To put player out of the dept or something? ....

    But as much as EB thing was unrealistic, this RS script is also bit too much if is true. Having one province and full stack army and sitting there doing nothing for few turns, I guess you should not get 70 k?
    It's not a script. Check every building in your starting settlement, one of them should have a large tax bonus on it. All factions have this (for specific campaigns eg: Bithnia, AI factions have even bigger ones).

    As it increases your income by tax income, having Very High taxes and a tax-bonused Governor will further multiply this... I was pretty sure players could do with less but eh, apparently people love spamming expensive units and leaving them lying about in garrisons so I'm sure you'll like it.

    This bonus is pretty static, after you've gotten max taxes and the best governor(s) in there. Carthage and Seleucids have two such settlements, Sparta and the swap factions etc have just one Treasury.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ovidius Empiricus View Post
    You mean like the free garrisons (which are only specific unit types) in Medieval 2? None. They're never free. They always have the same upkeep. I don't think Rome TW has a mechanism like that
    It doesn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ovidius Empiricus View Post
    The AI faces the same troubles: in many of my campaigns, Sparta AI is generally fluctuating back and forth between one and two settlements (and starting wars and stopping them), because they simply don't plan for the fact that they can't conquer their second region using "normal" AI methods, if it has any walls. Fortunately, several cities around them don't start with walls (perhaps one or two near Bithynia too, I would want to check that), so they can be taken immediately by any army. Sometimes Sparta has expanded a bit more, but the big boys in the neighborhood -- Free Greeks, Macedon, Rome, even Pergamon -- often squash them back down to size, despite how good the Spartan infantry is. Then they're stuck in a rut forever, unless they happen to recruit a catapult unit and can hold on to their new settlement long enough to continue expanding.
    Sparta was quite stuck in a rut historically, so it's not surprising that only under The Player they conquer the whole world.
    Last edited by Alavaria; September 20, 2015 at 09:32 AM.

  4. #84

    Default Re: Economic System, explanations elusive?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ovidius Empiricus View Post
    Regarding population growth generally, I always try to keep it positive. It generally grows a little too fast for my taste, but I still don't like to see any of those nasty red icons anywhere. Wells/hospitals/etc. are generally some of the first things I build because they have such a big (and relatively inexpensive) effect on public order. Notice that you get entertainment icons AND heart icons, plus there are more people to tax. The same kind of reasoning is why any sort of law building is near the top of the list: you're increasing order, reducing corruption, and especially with schools you're improving your governor as well. In any case, growth for me is always pretty fast. I apparently don't have exactly the same construction or recruitment priorities as Alavaria, but whatever I'm doing doesn't stop me from being filthy rich in any campaign I play. If anything, I just get more rich as things continue to grow and expand, so I can dump more and more money into long construction queues and extra armies that I don't really need.
    If your settlement is "0 garrison, max squalor" stable then you can just build the population growth and blow past everything.

    The calculation is this: Take your current public order at the tax rate (probably high, if you have a governor, VH otherwise).
    Subtract the garrison effect, and then subtract the difference between current squalor and 100%.

    Eh: At 120% PO, if I have 10% Garrison and 75% Squalor, my "0 garrison max squalor" will be 120-10-25=85. Perfect. Make sure to remove your governor for this if they are likely to die on you (if they're going to be stuck there for the next 30 years you can leave them)


    The issue with very high population growth is it at once adds squalor but also rapidly reduces your garrison effect, not a good combination as it can leave you few options... hence I temple up until it's "0 garrison, max squalor" stable and then just go to the moon. The public health buildings can help, but again used wrongly they'll trigger so much growth that if you're relying on garrisons etc, it will cause trouble for you.
    Last edited by Alavaria; September 20, 2015 at 09:50 AM.

  5. #85

    Default Re: Economic System, explanations elusive?

    Thanks a lot Ovidius Empiricus

    So, as far as I understood, script will put me in the piece after I attack some faction as I did in firs try of campaign, after attacking rebels on east? If I just sit, as I did in second testing try, I will still remain in war, as it was the case?


    Quote Originally Posted by Alavaria View Post
    That's because it's not the standard Slave faction you're used to but an actual faction called Rebels or whatever.

    One is called Free People, and the other is Rebels... something like that. This is for non-Rome campaigns (Rome has the Roman Rebels which are very specific)
    I am perfectly aware of this, and I tried to be precise which rebels and province I have attacked, and those are "real" rebels with which your diplomat is not able to deal with (as in vanilla), as I also stated.

    Those are not other guys (Free people), south east, inland, from my starting province


    Quote Originally Posted by Alavaria View Post
    It's not a script. Check every building in your starting settlement, one of them should have a large tax bonus on it. All factions have this (for specific campaigns eg: Bithnia, AI factions have even bigger ones).

    As it increases your income by tax income, having Very High taxes and a tax-bonused Governor will further multiply this... I was pretty sure players could do with less but eh, apparently people love spamming expensive units and leaving them lying about in garrisons so I'm sure you'll like it.
    Do not be so sure, as I actually complained in about this pretty big bonus, since I am not that kind of the player (which is also clear from my previous posts...I like to play it as realistically game allows no cheating over stupid AI, and making it hard as it was in real life).

    Keeping that in mind, that bonus is too big if you ask me...having one province, full stuck army and getting to 70k in few turns is bit too much (as much is EB terrible debt and economy mechanic also wrong )


    PS. Trade rights do not give you any increase in trade income with that faction?
    Tribal Total War

  6. #86

    Default Re: Economic System, explanations elusive?

    Oh it's that bug, go make a bug report in the place where bug reports go.

    Copy the following:

    It's related to the scripts for forcing peace etc. The problem is that if you load a game and end turn, the script doesn't check which faction the player is until your turn starts again. So on a new campaign I suppose at the end of turn 1 it doesn't know.

    And yes, the scripts can force peace with any faction including the slave faction.
    Code:
    	monitor_event FactionTurnStart FactionType greek_cities
    		and FactionIsLocal
    		set_counter Player_greek_cities 1
    	terminate_monitor
    	end_monitor

  7. #87

    Default Re: Economic System, explanations elusive?

    Thanks...I was suspicious it might be a bug, since it did not showed up second time

    Where to copy those lines..in script folder? You already made a fix?
    Tribal Total War

  8. #88

    Default Re: Economic System, explanations elusive?

    No that IS the current script. I don't think it can be fixed actually due to the way scripting works.

    Train and use a ballista unit or a spy, I guess.

  9. #89

    Default Re: Economic System, explanations elusive?

    Sparta was quite stuck in a rut historically, so it's not surprising that only under The Player they conquer the whole world.
    Sure. Sparta was a terrible society, so I guess that's for the best, but at some level it still makes me kind of sad to see them (or any faction) in such a pathetic and hopeless situation. So I destroy them quickly, to minimize what remains of their suffering, which is the only thing they have left.

    The issue with very high population growth is it at once adds squalor but also rapidly reduces your garrison effect, not a good combination as it can leave you few options... hence I temple up until it's "0 garrison, max squalor" stable and then just go to the moon. The public health buildings can help, but again used wrongly they'll trigger so much growth that if you're relying on garrisons etc, it will cause trouble for you.
    I'm not sure I understand what trouble you think I have. I'm not relying on garrisons much at all. That seems like the worst thing you could do to get public order, as I tried to explain before. The way I do it, there are just a few basic necessities for every location on the map, and maximizing any profits/benefits only happens once those are ensured. (I don't know what else you would be building there, if you're not starting with wells or law temples or something public order related like that.) Most places never recruit any units at all. They are for making a profit, nothing else. I have all of that more or less planned ahead of time. Places that already are fortified, have foundries, give me access to a new unit or legion, etc., are of course the obvious choice for a new recruitment center. I just don't put myself into emergency situations, panic and buy units from everywhere, to quickly collect them together into an army (which isn't experienced, doesn't have top-quality armor/weapons, probably isn't what I wanted as an army composition, etc.). My armies are almost always deliberately mustered, one by one (in 1-turn) in a region dedicated for that purpose, a long time in advance. That's just how I roll.

    Public order never, ever, ever goes below 105% if I can help it. It's much higher once things settle down in a newly conquered area. But not causing riots is not good enough. It should stay very comfortably in the green. Only the best for my people. Money is no object. And squalor just don't mean a thang, if you've ever found yourself with 250-300%+ public order (which you know isn't only happening because of garrisons), because that penalty tops out and so does population. Besides, it doesn't happen overnight or anything -- you can see squalor coming a mile away, then eventually construct something, if need be, to take care of it. It isn't an immediate concern of mine, unless a city happens to be in incredibly bad shape when I get there, but a nice juicy health bonus is just what the doctor ordered, to quickly and cheaply remedy that while you think of something else. Like a temple or a school, maybe a barracks.

    To the extent I use garrisons (they are of course necessary), large ones only stay near/behind the front lines, then move to the next place that needs their help as I expand. By that time, which not be very long at all, the settlement they used to be in has already settled down. The only thing I've got in well-protected areas is a decent governor (always) and maybe a skirmisher or some extra unit that I can't find another use for at the moment.

    Anyway, the vast majority of regions are only about making money and keeping things orderly, generally without the help of any garrisons repressing discontent. I have more than enough governors and generals, training them for a while and giving them appropriate ancillaries to make sure they'll do good work. After a few/several turns of making the right sorts of construction choices, those large garrisons are usually ready to leave. They don't stay there, costing me money, to keep the peace so I can make a quick buck by immediately building something shiny that supposedly increases my income right this minute but which doesn't help with the major public order problem that needs to be settled first. It isn't net income if the garrison is costing me a lot more money in order to build that shiny thing, instead of something reasonable that lets me move the garrison to someplace it is actually needed, a new place which will also start making me money and get me closer to owning the map with a nice happy population.

    So maybe we just think about it differently, but profit-making should only come once order has fully stabilized, with no tricks or funny business, which does not take long (or cost much) if you make law/health/happiness a top priority. Then, I start building gold mines and whatever. Just to make sure I understand what you had in mind.... the "population growth" buildings are not something that I use for growth in lieu of wells and hospitals -- because they don't give you happier people, just more money (and more people who are more unhappy due to the squalor you haven't fixed yet but have only made worse). Those buildings come much later in my book. But like I said, it's not as if I'm losing money this way somehow, or as if I have to worry about rioting or stuff like that.

  10. #90

    Default Re: Economic System, explanations elusive?

    This is for people who are having problems.

    So, not you.

  11. #91

    Default Re: Economic System, explanations elusive?

    So, to sum it up, those economics tweaks, reward spoiled players who like to unrealistically pump out fancy units and built advanced army barracks for it (instead of focusing on economy and having very little fancy units as it was in real life), as they will never go bankrupt no matter what...
    Tribal Total War

  12. #92

    Default Re: Economic System, explanations elusive?

    Well the new Athens campaign in RS3 "shipped" with no treasury at all for Athens, so that's fun.

    ==================================

    It's quite troublesome to break the Squalor cap and max out your population sometimes, for Athens, I calculate the building growth as maxing out at 23%, while a decent settlement with a high base growth (eg: Sparte: 4%) can max out and remain at Very High taxes, that's a long slow growth time. Eh, well whatever...4



    Athenai starts off in the negatives I think, very much so. Amusing (it rushes to build military stuff anyway)
    Last edited by Alavaria; May 03, 2016 at 10:17 AM.

  13. #93
    dvk901's Avatar Consummatum est
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    Default Re: Economic System, explanations elusive?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alavaria View Post
    Well the new Athens campaign in RS3 "shipped" with no treasury at all for Athens, so that's fun.

    ==================================

    It's quite troublesome to break the Squalor cap and max out your population sometimes, for Athens, I calculate the building growth as maxing out at 23%, while a decent settlement with a high base growth (eg: Sparte: 4%) can max out and remain at Very High taxes, that's a long slow growth time. Eh, well whatever...4



    Athenai starts off in the negatives I think, very much so. Amusing (it rushes to build military stuff anyway)
    The treasury issue will be fixed.....but I'm not sure what you mean in what you wrote?

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  14. #94

    Default Re: Economic System, explanations elusive?

    Basically the effect of Squalor on population growth maxes out at 25%, if you have enough growth from buildings and surpass this (with bonus/penalty from your tax setting) then the population will keep on growing to the population cap of 216,000.

    While on one hand this will get you a much higher tax amount (~2700, up from maybe ~1200 for a just-reached-Huge-city.... then x1.5 for Very High taxes), it's not really a particularly feasible strategy, but it definitely does allow you to grow some cities (primarily the ones with Wheat, or even better clusters of Wheat provinces) which might be amusing to those who enjoy "empire building".


    I was testing this with Scythia on RSII (they start in the middle of a cluster of Wheat provinces) and it worked pretty well.
    Last edited by Alavaria; May 04, 2016 at 11:19 PM.

  15. #95
    dvk901's Avatar Consummatum est
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    Default Re: Economic System, explanations elusive?

    Ah, I see. Thanks.

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