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Thread: Economic System, explanations elusive?

  1. #21

    Default Re: Economic System, explanations elusive?

    That does pose a bit more of a problem yes :p

  2. #22

    Default Re: Economic System, explanations elusive?

    Anyway dvk, if you haven't seen it check page 1 for the post on governor tax bonus vs building tax bonus effects, thanks.

  3. #23
    dvk901's Avatar Consummatum est
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    Default Re: Economic System, explanations elusive?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alavaria View Post
    "offsets" =/= "you are no longer in the hole" for anyone wondering if adding a governor means making tax bonus buildings worthwhile. The specific mechanic is that Regional Governor etc multiplies your tax income. Whereas the building's bonus adds linearly or something.


    Attachment 303381 Screenshots

    Pergamon, a settlement "in the hole"

    With governor: 2556
    and with tax bonus buildings: 2556
    and with tax penalty buildings: 2556

    Without governor: 1461
    and with tax buildings: 1461

    So this governor multiplies tax income by 2556/1461 = 1.749 (75% bonus)

    -----------------

    Sparta, a settlement not "in the hole"
    the "tax bonus buildings" give 20+10+10+10=50% of building tax income bonus%

    With governor: 34134
    and with tax bonus buildings: 35698
    and with tax penalty buildings: 33897

    Without governor: 21604
    and with tax bonus buildings: 22594
    and with tax penalty buildings: 21454

    --------------------

    So in Sparta (since it is the only one showing differences)
    The governor multiplies tax income by 34134/21604=1.597, or a 60% bonus

    The upgrades give:
    WITH governor 35698-34134 = 1564
    WITHOUT governor. 22594-21604 = 990
    So... 1564/990 = 1.597

    What about the ones with tax penalty?
    WITH governor: 34134-33897 = 237
    WITHOUT governor: 21604-21454 = 150
    So... 237/150= 1.58


    Clearly the governor is just multiplying the tax income by 1+ (his bonus). It doesn't act in the same way as a building's "tax income bonus" does.

    I can move someone to a settlement with nothing but just a governor's house or close to it, the effect is the same. (Oh, it'll automatically be in the hole, as they have the penalty though, so basically the same as Pergamon)


    Oh, yeah you can also see that my pergamon guy would be better situated in Sparta, his extra 15% multiplier would be worth 3000 more income. Wow. That's half a stack right there. I suppose it would be best to check the bonus for each general and then reassign the top guy to Sparte ...


    -------------------------


    As a side note, the way a positive and negative building tax income bonus interact is unusual and not what you'd expect. Building a +10% and then a -10% results in a lower tax income, so I'm not sure about that.
    Oddly enough, your math seems to work out exactly to what the Governor bonus is. This is the trait:

    Trait City_Has_Governor
    Characters family

    NoGoingBackLevel 3
    AntiTraits Not_A_Governor

    Level Large_Town_Has_Governor
    Description Large_Town_Has_Governor_desc
    EffectsDescription Large_Town_Has_Governor_effects_desc
    Threshold 4

    Effect TaxCollection 50

    Level City_Has_Governor
    Description City_Has_Governor_desc
    EffectsDescription City_Has_Governor_effects_desc
    Threshold 6

    Effect TaxCollection 60

    For a large town, the penalty in the core building is offset, for a city and above, you actually get a 10 bonus. Of course, now I'm wondering if the trait bonus is actually 50% and 60%...still, it stands to reason that a city making more money will report a greater gain from this than one making less...but there is always a gain. I see this dynamic a thousand times in testing, just by removing a governor and then putting him back in next turn.

    Creator of: "Ecce, Roma Surrectum....Behold, Rome Arises!"
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  4. #24

    Default Re: Economic System, explanations elusive?

    I believe he meant that it goes something like (Base*<Sum of building modifiers+1:Minimum of 1>)*(Tax level+Governor bonus). While you said it should be (Base*<Sum of building modifiers+Govenor bonus+1:Minimum of 1>)*(Tax Level). The bonus is applied-just not in a way that would offset the government building directly.

  5. #25

    Default Re: Economic System, explanations elusive?

    Quote Originally Posted by Soulbourne View Post
    I believe he meant that it goes something like (Base*<Sum of building modifiers+1:Minimum of 1>)*(Tax level+Governor bonus). While you said it should be (Base*<Sum of building modifiers+Govenor bonus+1:Minimum of 1>)*(Tax Level). The bonus is applied-just not in a way that would offset the government building directly.
    That is it. The point being, governor trait is different from tax bonus from buildings. "They both increase tax" is not precise and will lead to people making the wrong conclusions about how the system behaves when you build things. Like you just illustrated.

    You can SEE that the governor's 60% is a massive increase in Sparte, but a sum of building's bonus for 50% is nowhere NEAR that.



    The main conclusion is that a governor does not affect whether or not your settlement is in the hole. Check Pergamon, why is adding 40% of building bonus resulting in no increase in tax when I have a governor there? You wouldn't build those Trade Expeditions if they do nothing right?

    the right formula would be like

    (Base Tax based on population)*(1 + building tax bonus% ~HAS A MINIMUM~)*(1 + governor tax bonus)*(1 + tax rate from the settlement window)

    THUS, you can get more "tax income" by higher population, adding governor or increase settlement's tax rate, EVEN IF building things has no effect whatsoever.

    With or without a governor, spending 10000 to build trade and industry buildings results in NO gain whatsoever in Pergamon. It just disappears down a hole.
    Similarly, spamming all the temples and so on does NOT decrease my tax income in Pergamon, governor or not.

    Pergamon's tax would be the same if you made the governor's house have -10000% tax income bonus.


    The idea that the tax penalty on say temples prevents you from spamming them like mad, or will reduce your future income is nice. It also doesn't happen in the settlements where you will be interested in spamming them, or most settlements in general. Now perhaps you did intend, for most settlements, that players just ignore the tax income bonus% modifiers on buildings. Because that's what people should be doing in a majority of settlements.


    In fact, you gain more income by spamming them so you can keep your taxes at Very High instead of at Low or Normal. Which is what I recommend, as temples are nice small things that you can easily throw everywhere without worrying about your future income at all.
    Last edited by Alavaria; March 10, 2014 at 11:43 PM.

  6. #26

    Default Re: Economic System, explanations elusive?

    The current set up of RSII allows the following settlement plan:

    Don't bother constructing ANYthing for which the payoff is Tax Income Bonus %.

    Get the population to the max (ie: 200,000) and stable with very high taxes. Add a governor. This is possible in every settlement, just takes a while. You will probably spam all the temples and build stuff like population control and the Wells, Cisterns etc. I'm actually going to try this... oh a governor that reduces squalor effects is very handy. I think it actually reduces the cap on squalor as well while he is there.

    Enjoy as your warhammer40k-esque hive settlements give you tons of tax income. Because past 36,000 or something, the tax increase per citizen is just linear, or something like that (about 8 per 1000 citizens, so from 40k to 200k is 1280)

    I'm running an experiment in Pella to see if I can get away without building a Royal Palace or using a squalor reducing governor. Sparte at nearly 40,000 population with 10% growth rate is pretty hilarious though ! It might hit 200,000 in 17 turns or thereabout.


    The increased tax income from higher population is probably multiplied by the governor's bonus, but NOT by the building tax income bonus, now that I think about it.
    Last edited by Alavaria; March 10, 2014 at 11:17 PM.

  7. #27

    Default Re: Economic System, explanations elusive?

    So, what? With just base tax that's ~9000/turn tax?

  8. #28

    Default Re: Economic System, explanations elusive?

    No, I think you'll be at like 3000 or something before governor and tax rate modifiers... Though that has to be tested, which I will be doing. But this does always work I think.

    Now the issue is with any Large or Huge City, the (Building) Tax modifers will wipe out nearly any investment you put into (Building) tax modifer construction. And whenever you need to add a bit to deal with public order, there goes your hoped-for income. Even normal cities, really.

    This method is pretty safe. What it hinges on is that population growth above 4% gives you a public order bonus. Things like wells/cisterns and population growth measures all get you a nice big upfront growth rate, and initial public order. As population rises, the growth rate falls (less PO bonus) and squalor rises (PO penalty) but you can easily take care of PO by spamming all the temples, as silly as it sounds. Upgrading them all to Tier 2 should do the trick pretty easily. The health bonus from well/cistern is always there as an extra PO bonus as well.


    Oh and going for Fortified Region will allow you more temples, of which (in Sparta's case) one of them is +law. So that works out better for income than actually doing Economic Region (as that allows advanced industry buildings which give you bonuses that do nothing)
    Last edited by Alavaria; March 10, 2014 at 11:36 PM.

  9. #29
    dvk901's Avatar Consummatum est
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    Default Re: Economic System, explanations elusive?

    I disagree that they 'do nothing'. For example, in the culture buildings fro various capitals (except for the Romans, who are set up differently) each faction is given a very 'healthy' tax bonus....ranging from 800-1200 in 1-turn, to 2 or 3000 in 0-turn. Seleucid even has two cities that give them this large bonus. That bonus is 'in a building', and it obviously does quite a bit. Some of these cities will make 12-25000 denari. This was done for several reasons...to demonstrate the inherent wealth of capitals, for one thing, and, to isolate a lot (or more) income to a restricted home area, as well as make it strategically advantageous to take a faction's capital. But, these are already large cities with high population anyway, so the bonus is enhanced by this fact.

    I do agree that all these little tax bonuses may 'look' like nothing, because they are most of the time very small bonuses (as in the market buildings). Still, the whole idea of this was to 'pile up' a lot of small tax bonuses and tax penalties to arrive at an 'economic balance'....NOT, necessarily, to make the player a lot of money.

    I know that a lot of people look at the economics in RS2 and say that 'this building hardly does anything, and that building doesn't make much money or any, and another seems too expensive to justify building it.' That is all correct. The intention here was not to provide a geometrically snowballing growth in income, but a 'necessity' to manage and grow what is intentionally a very crappy economy!

    That sounds silly, but you might say it is a 'gentle ruse' that tells most players 'you're getting something for this', when in fact, you really aren't getting very much, and you're spending a lot of money for the pleasure. Still, it has been proven that if you DON'T build buildings and make an effort to grow your economy, you will run into trouble as you expand your empire. There again, that was the intention.

    What it comes down to is this......if I take a bonus out of a building, then players will say: Why should I build that building when it gives me nothing?' I, for my part, really WANT to take that bonus out of that building, because it causes economic snowballing that just gets out of control with RTW's system. So what I do is put a bonus in there that essentially 'looks' like a bonus, but is in fact a very small, almost irrelevant one. The player is happy, because he thinks he's getting something. I am happy, because I know he's not getting very much....and not getting very much is the key to the whole thing.

    In truth, my guess would be that the tax penalties in most 'infrastructure' type buildings may well entirely offset the bonuses in most of the others....so that in effect you end up 'even', and therefore left with the simple RTW system of increasing settlement taxes, and population growing, or as you say, lowering corruption through law. But, the trade bonuses, which were the main problem, have mostly been removed from the picture.

    TBH, this is the big 'secret' of RS's economy. You've discovered my secret!

    Creator of: "Ecce, Roma Surrectum....Behold, Rome Arises!"
    R.I.P. My Beloved Father

  10. #30

    Default Re: Economic System, explanations elusive?

    Quote Originally Posted by dvk901 View Post
    In truth, my guess would be that the tax penalties in most 'infrastructure' type buildings may well entirely offset the bonuses in most of the others....so that in effect you end up 'even', and therefore left with the simple RTW system of increasing settlement taxes, and population growing, or as you say, lowering corruption through law. But, the trade bonuses, which were the main problem, have mostly been removed from the picture.

    TBH, this is the big 'secret' of RS's economy. You've discovered my secret!
    Your guess? It was obvious the moment I noticed the big penalty on the building. And I've already demonstrated it's the case.

    Guess no more!


    The systems where every backwater village ends up with advanced economy, massive markets and highways always seemed pretty daft to me. Though I did put paved roads in Gallia! (For strategic purposes actually)

    Supposedly the Romans build highways at least partially out of strategic concerns. Certainly these roads hardly give me any additional trade income.. They are there so that units arriving by sea in the south can have a faster march up north. Because I haven't taken Iberia, there isn't a fast "sea highway" to the northern part of Gallia.



    Quote Originally Posted by dvk901 View Post
    I do agree that all these little tax bonuses may 'look' like nothing, because they are most of the time very small bonuses (as in the market buildings). Still, the whole idea of this was to 'pile up' a lot of small tax bonuses and tax penalties to arrive at an 'economic balance'....NOT, necessarily, to make the player a lot of money.
    Hilariously, there's just no bonuses, I never build those in outer settlements. The ones the AI has built are the most useful when destroyed to get some cash back
    Quote Originally Posted by dvk901 View Post
    I disagree that they 'do nothing'. For example, in the culture buildings fro various capitals (except for the Romans, who are set up differently) each faction is given a very 'healthy' tax bonus....ranging from 800-1200 in 1-turn, to 2 or 3000 in 0-turn. Seleucid even has two cities that give them this large bonus. That bonus is 'in a building', and it obviously does quite a bit. Some of these cities will make 12-25000 denari. This was done for several reasons...to demonstrate the inherent wealth of capitals, for one thing, and, to isolate a lot (or more) income to a restricted home area, as well as make it strategically advantageous to take a faction's capital. But, these are already large cities with high population anyway, so the bonus is enhanced by this fact.
    Romans are special, all Roma Culture settlements have some significant bonus. Greek Cities is another exception I think.

    For all other factions that people may play as, you have one or two settlements that are worth developing.


    Most settlements don't have these, so what I said is still true; building a bunch of new industry buildings is basically worthless in them. There's no need to confuse anyone reading the thread.

    The easy way, for anyone wondering, is queue up the building while keeping your settlement details open. Check if it gives you anything or not before making your decision. You will want to do this AFTER having built enough to make sure public order is stable. Sometimes you're just a little away from it and your next public order building tosses you into the hole.
    Last edited by Alavaria; March 12, 2014 at 12:33 PM.

  11. #31

    Default Re: Economic System, explanations elusive?

    I hope this has sufficiently answered Soulbourne's question. There isn't any magical hidden trap, the game gives you all the information you need to know about settlement income and what you get from upgrades in the settlement details window.

    By the same token, there's no magical bonus that makes building something worthwhile if you can't see anything on the settlement details window. If building X looks like a terrible idea (expensive, low or no benefit), it most likely is. Like the fancy markets and farms.
    Last edited by Alavaria; March 12, 2014 at 12:49 PM.

  12. #32

    Default Re: Economic System, explanations elusive?

    This thread should be stickied, it is the most practical explanation of the RS2 economy dynamics.

    May I have another question:

    I am playing the Romans, my first RS2 campaign ever. Last turn I was about to go into the red, but then I click next turn and about 30K somehow appeared in my treasury. Is there any script that lents money to the player that must be repayed with interest later?

  13. #33

    Default Re: Economic System, explanations elusive?

    Are you by chance playing on easy or very hard?

  14. #34

    Default Re: Economic System, explanations elusive?

    Quote Originally Posted by sadlogic View Post
    Are you by chance playing on easy or very hard?
    I am playing on hard campaign difficulty.

  15. #35

    Default Re: Economic System, explanations elusive?

    Quote Originally Posted by danielrech View Post
    I am playing on hard campaign difficulty.
    When I was reviewing the 'Too Much Money' script a good while ago, I did notice that (in fairness a good counter-foil) that there is also a 'Too Little Money' sub-script, but I have never seen it work in action and it does have some more stringent criteria before firing.

    It looks like you met those criteria and possibly 'needed' the money.
    "RTW/RS VH campaign difficulty is bugged out (CA bug that never got fixed) and thus easier than Hard so play on that instead" - apple

    RSII 2.5/2.6 Tester and pesky irritant to the Team. Mucho praise for long suffering dvk'.

  16. #36

    Default Re: Economic System, explanations elusive?

    Does the game anticipate the financial bonus from buildings that will be completed next turn when it gives you the 'next turn' figure?
    "I should like to see...the last king strangled with the guts of the last priest"

  17. #37

    Default Re: Economic System, explanations elusive?

    Quote Originally Posted by Primative1 View Post
    Does the game anticipate the financial bonus from buildings that will be completed next turn when it gives you the 'next turn' figure?
    I am pretty sure it doesn't, as the script would only focus on absolutes (like your actual 'bank balance'). New buildings, indeed, add/subtract very little in the scheme of things.
    "RTW/RS VH campaign difficulty is bugged out (CA bug that never got fixed) and thus easier than Hard so play on that instead" - apple

    RSII 2.5/2.6 Tester and pesky irritant to the Team. Mucho praise for long suffering dvk'.

  18. #38

    Default Re: Economic System, explanations elusive?

    I should also note, if the governor's building (especially the Royal Palace or whatever the top level one may be named) gets sufficiently damaged, not only do you lose its law bonus, you also lose the tax penalty.

    For example, Syracusai has -110% tax income from it's Royal Palace. A riot just happened to wreck the building, which takes away the penalty If this happens, you might consider not repairing it. You can observe this effect if repairing the governor's building reduces your income.


    For those wondering, you can indeed carefully induce riots (probably using the tax rate would be easiest. You might also move garrisons out to gain the "no garrison" penalty to public order). Controlled riots (1 turn riot, then stabilize settlement for a turn, then allow it to riot again etc) can be done to wreck your Huge City's government building. Potentially you can damage it in a battle as well, though this is unlikely with Huge Cities (and smaller ones might be upgraded into them).

    Just a thing to keep in mind . You might want to stabilize the population at some tier (Probably City or Large City) and then just use controlled riots to damage the government building (which will never be upgraded after that). Really, about 6-12k population is good enough for tax and public order.
    Last edited by Alavaria; March 24, 2014 at 07:53 AM.

  19. #39

    Default Re: Economic System, explanations elusive?

    Thats a bit 'gamey' though.

    Never had any problems with cash in RS2. As long as you dont get too carried away with building units it shouldnt be a problem.
    "I should like to see...the last king strangled with the guts of the last priest"

  20. #40

    Default Re: Economic System, explanations elusive?

    I wonder if people would find an economy guide useful, there sure are a lot of interesting features in the RS2 system...


    Quote Originally Posted by Primative1 View Post
    Thats a bit 'gamey' though.
    Sort of, but I don't have the cash to repair settlements, which frequently I don't actually bother trying to stabilize after taking them. This results in a bunch of settlements rioting and possibly even rebelling (and being re-capped) which naturally leads to damaged governor's buildings.

    I only just noticed it happened in Syrakousai (because the Royal Palace gives +15% law, others give maybe +10% law). A chance to double-save (save on repairs, potentially make more income).


    There is a way to code so as to prevent this, of course, but it is less obvious to the player. You make an undamageable building (the cultural building) have the penalties dependant on the level of governor's building.
    Last edited by Alavaria; March 24, 2014 at 04:00 PM.

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