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Thread: Economic System, explanations elusive?

  1. #1

    Default Economic System, explanations elusive?

    I've spent the past couple hours scouring this forum, google, etc for this, but haven't found anything specific: It's said that taxes have long term effects, fresh conquests generate little to no income, based on trade, etc.

    In the RS2 preview, DVK made several comments he never meant it to be complicated-but never actually clarified the questions mentioned. And other replies by people were less than precise either. I've also checked the IG descriptions(many read from simple habit) but they provide minimal core details too.

    So, as for the actual queries:

    Is there an underlying measurement of "pop wealth" that the tax buildings and very high taxes force down? Because that's what everyone hinted at, even if I wouldn't think RTW would be quite that capable. If so, that would explain a lot, but otherwise see the following.

    Various buildings give X% tax bonus. This obviously is a culmative modifier to a base tax score, I assume anyways. "Home Regions", such as places with carthaginian buildings for carthage, have a signifigant tax bonus. The capital city gets another bonus on top of this, showing the central efficiency at the capital alongside the fact the empires focus much of their trade and economy through here-alongside the pop happily paying support. The question is, what determines the base tax? Is it just a straightforward pop based equation?

    Also, for newly conquered places, I innitially assumed it would probably be a simple unrest modifier from newly conquered, alongside the lack of extra bonuses from "Home territory". However, that alone wouldn't make as large a long term impact as certain threads indicated. Unrest does fall out after awhile, and even if not as major tax income-the idea that you can expand tax income over time through development of conquest, alongside the roman guide stating that destroying foriegn culture buildings is a waste of money, raises the question of WHAT limits expansionary income?

    Is the only thing "Limiting" tax income the pop happiness and maintenance there-of? Thus meaning building the tax buildings shouldn't hurt much unless you can't maintain happiness level? Which...wouldn't make sense. It's a high expense building, so would take time to recover it's costs. Far longer than a revolt would allow unless it takes years for low happiness to cause it.

    It sounds like a glorious thing, but a lot of it is rather vague, and that makes me unsure about planning ahead my build goals >.> If anyone could clarify on that, would be appreciated. Here's hoping the forum spam filter doesn't block this.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Economic System, explanations elusive?

    Quote Originally Posted by Soulbourne View Post
    Is there an underlying measurement of "pop wealth" that the tax buildings and very high taxes force down? Because that's what everyone hinted at, even if I wouldn't think RTW would be quite that capable. If so, that would explain a lot, but otherwise see the following.
    No, (though that's what happens in Empire Total War).

    Basically, population increases taxes in a manner independent of +% Income Tax Bonus. However, there are diminishing returns on this, when you get to 10k+ population or so then it becomes fairly obvious... from 10k to 20k is an increase, but also a lot of hassle.
    Quote Originally Posted by Soulbourne View Post
    The question is, what determines the base tax? Is it just a straightforward pop based equation?
    Pretty much. Note that in a lot of settlements, you will have MASSIVE net -% Income Tax Bonus, this means you're basically always at your base. The main way to get more out of your settlement is to make law buildings (this reduces corruption).

    NOTE: I think the Roman campaign has multiple settlements with significant bonuses to Tax Income, some other factions don't behave like this. Always check if a settlement is operating at it's base tax or has a bonus. If it's the latter, Wells and the like will reduce your tax income. If it's the former, they won't as you are at the base.
    Quote Originally Posted by Soulbourne View Post
    the idea that you can expand tax income over time through development of conquest, alongside the roman guide stating that destroying foriegn culture buildings is a waste of money, raises the question of WHAT limits expansionary income?
    So far, I've taken 74 settlements in like 35 turns or so on. My economy is going perfectly strong. It's not that hard.
    Quote Originally Posted by Soulbourne View Post
    Is the only thing "Limiting" tax income the pop happiness and maintenance there-of? Thus meaning building the tax buildings shouldn't hurt much unless you can't maintain happiness level? Which...wouldn't make sense. It's a high expense building, so would take time to recover it's costs.
    No point, the tax buildings (or even the economic ones) frequently don't increase your income in a majority of settlements. You can check for yourself how much extra you will get. It's frequently nothing. So as above, just build +%law because it reduces corruption.
    Quote Originally Posted by Soulbourne View Post
    It sounds like a glorious thing, but a lot of it is rather vague, and that makes me unsure about planning ahead my build goals
    You're going to want Public Order first, then build up +Law buildings to deal with corruption. And then maybe some population growth. The Wells-> Cisterns is ok, and then possibly Population Growth Measures. Keep spamming all the temples that increase public order.

    In Particular, keep in mind all the buildings which give you Law, these are nice as they increase public order AND reduce corruption.
    Last edited by Alavaria; March 09, 2014 at 09:29 AM.

  3. #3
    dvk901's Avatar Consummatum est
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    Default Re: Economic System, explanations elusive?

    The gentleman above was involved in configuring this setup, so he should know.

    I would add however that the RS2 economic 'system' is an attempt to 'overlay a plan' on top of a set of game mechanics that insists on giving the player more and more money. It is one of the biggest problems with this game, because rather than it getting harder to maintain a large empire (which was the reality), RTW tends to make it easier to the point of boredom. Money pours in, and you could feasibly 'buy' the rest of your campaign.

    To help correct this, more importance was put on taxes in RS2 than on other 'wealth related' bonuses, which RTW gives whether you like it or not. But it is more intended to have a 'global' effect rather than a city by city effect. And, I have seen many times when you look at your Finance Scroll and you see a negative or very small 'profit'....yet you raked in a significant amount of money. RTW doesn't really know how to report this because it wasn't set up that way. So it's hard to explain because I can't really point to this figure and that to show someone exactly how it works.

    I DO know that negative tax bonuses work, whereas negative trade bonuses do not, which is why some major infrastructure buildings have negative tax penalties to 'simulate' their maintenance. I also know that any taxes are based upon the amount of trade and profit going on, so if you limit trade and profit, you end up with less tax income. But, as Alavaria pointed out, less corruption increases income sort of 'on the sly' because it diverts money into your coffers instead of into someone else's pockets.

    As to what limits expansionary income, it is the removal of trade bonuses from the player's 'capture' of buildings he never built. For example, in a normal RTW mod (or Vanilla itself), you would see this in a trader building:

    trader requires factions { barbarian, carthaginian, eastern, parthia, egyptian, greek, roman, }
    {
    capability
    {
    trade_base_income_bonus bonus 1
    population_growth_bonus bonus 1
    }
    construction 2
    cost 600
    settlement_min town

    Owning this trader, whether you actually built it or not, nets you a trade bonus of '1', regardless of what faction you are. And as you ascend this building tree through markets, forums, etc.; the trade bonuses get higher and higher. RS2 however, adjusts this like so:

    trader requires factions { barbarian, nomad, carthaginian, eastern, parthia, egyptian, greek, roman, }
    {
    capability
    {
    trade_base_income_bonus bonus 2 requires factions { romans_brutii, } and hidden_resource area6 and not hidden_resource island
    trade_base_income_bonus bonus 3 requires factions { romans_brutii, } and hidden_resource area6 and hidden_resource island
    trade_base_income_bonus bonus 2 requires factions { romans_brutii, } and hidden_resource area5 and hidden_resource no_way
    trade_base_income_bonus bonus 2 requires factions { romans_brutii, } and hidden_resource area13 and hidden_resource no_way
    taxable_income_bonus bonus 5 requires factions { romans_brutii, } and not hidden_resource area6
    ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
    trade_base_income_bonus bonus 2 requires factions { greek_cities, } and hidden_resource area9
    taxable_income_bonus bonus 5 requires factions { greek_cities, } and not hidden_resource area9
    ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
    trade_base_income_bonus bonus 2 requires factions { macedon, } and hidden_resource area8
    taxable_income_bonus bonus 5 requires factions { macedon, } and not hidden_resource area8 and not hidden_resource area12
    trade_base_income_bonus bonus 2 requires factions { macedon, } and hidden_resource area12
    ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
    trade_base_income_bonus bonus 2 requires factions { numidia, } and hidden_resource area8
    taxable_income_bonus bonus 5 requires factions { numidia, } and not hidden_resource area8 and not hidden_resource area12
    trade_base_income_bonus bonus 2 requires factions { numidia, } and hidden_resource area12
    ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
    trade_base_income_bonus bonus 2 requires factions { pontus, } and hidden_resource area12
    taxable_income_bonus bonus 5 requires factions { pontus, } and not hidden_resource area12
    ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
    trade_base_income_bonus bonus 1 requires factions { seleucid, } and hidden_resource sel
    taxable_income_bonus bonus 5 requires factions { seleucid, } and not hidden_resource sel
    ;;;;;;;;;;;;;
    trade_base_income_bonus bonus 2 requires factions { armenia, } and hidden_resource area11
    taxable_income_bonus bonus 5 requires factions { armenia, } and not hidden_resource area11
    ;;;;;;;;;;;;;
    trade_base_income_bonus bonus 2 requires factions { romans_julii, } and hidden_resource area1
    taxable_income_bonus bonus 5 requires factions { romans_julii, } and not hidden_resource area1
    trade_base_income_bonus bonus 2 requires factions { gauls, } and hidden_resource area13
    taxable_income_bonus bonus 5 requires factions { gauls, } and not hidden_resource area13
    trade_base_income_bonus bonus 2 requires factions { boii, } and hidden_resource area4 or hidden_resource area5
    taxable_income_bonus bonus 5 requires factions { boii, } and not hidden_resource area4 and not hidden_resource area5
    trade_base_income_bonus bonus 2 requires factions { spain, } and hidden_resource area2
    taxable_income_bonus bonus 5 requires factions { spain, } and not hidden_resource area2
    trade_base_income_bonus bonus 2 requires factions { dacia, } and hidden_resource area7
    taxable_income_bonus bonus 5 requires factions { dacia, } and not hidden_resource area7
    trade_base_income_bonus bonus 2 requires factions { germans, } and hidden_resource area4
    taxable_income_bonus bonus 5 requires factions { germans, } and not hidden_resource area4
    trade_base_income_bonus bonus 3 requires factions { romans_scipii, } and hidden_resource area7
    taxable_income_bonus bonus 5 requires factions { romans_scipii, } and not hidden_resource area7
    trade_base_income_bonus bonus 6 requires factions { scythia, } and hidden_resource area10
    taxable_income_bonus bonus 5 requires factions { scythia, } and not hidden_resource area10
    trade_base_income_bonus bonus 2 requires factions { parthia, } and hidden_resource area15
    taxable_income_bonus bonus 5 requires factions { parthia, } and not hidden_resource area15
    trade_base_income_bonus bonus 1 requires factions { egypt, } and hidden_resource area14
    taxable_income_bonus bonus 5 requires factions { egypt, } and not hidden_resource area14
    trade_base_income_bonus bonus 3 requires factions { carthage, } and hidden_resource area2 and hidden_resource r12
    trade_base_income_bonus bonus 2 requires factions { carthage, } and hidden_resource area3
    taxable_income_bonus bonus 5 requires factions { carthage, } and not hidden_resource area3 and not hidden_resource area2
    taxable_income_bonus bonus 5 requires factions { carthage, } and hidden_resource area2 and not hidden_resource r12
    trade_level_bonus bonus 5 requires factions { thrace, }
    trade_level_bonus bonus 2 requires factions { britons, } and hidden_resource gre

    Trade bonuses are made specific to your 'area of major influence', or 'home territories', so that when you capture a trader that is NOT in your home territory, all you get is a small tax bonus. You don't get the trade because you didn't build it. This is more realistic, since empires 'taxed' trade and peoples, they didn't take away their profits and income. But it also helps a lot to remove the 'income snowballing' that happens in a normal RTW setup.

    It isn't perfect, and we still use a script to regulate income. But rather than dealing with excesses in the millions, we're dealing with smaller excesses in the area of a couple hundred thousand.

    Creator of: "Ecce, Roma Surrectum....Behold, Rome Arises!"
    R.I.P. My Beloved Father

  4. #4

    Default Re: Economic System, explanations elusive?

    Actual IG records such as the end of turn report aren't necessary to fully explain the system. I imagine the basics of those are fairly well understood by most, and the people actually searching for this stuff simply want a clearer idea of what all happens.

    So, the thing that "Limits" expansion is foriegn built trade buildings have a lesser effect-does this mean rebuilding them will grant you the full bonus? Or upgrading them? Or(Pardon my unwillingness to sift through the code posted) is it only full effect in home territory?

    Also, does this mean the "Trade modifier" from the various buildings also affects the base tax income?

    On the corruption: I'm aware of that, even in vanilla I could have settlements with over 1000+ lost/turn from corruption if I wasn't careful. While not normally too painful, since it was mid game not late I was often beginning to pump out huge sets of prefab armies and consequently it did drain my savings. Law and Order is awesome :p

    Also, how do I tell if it's at the base tax or not? Just add together the buildings? I tried poking around IG, but couldn't really identify anything telling of the base tax, but may of missed it.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Economic System, explanations elusive?

    Quote Originally Posted by Soulbourne View Post
    So, the thing that "Limits" expansion is foriegn built trade buildings have a lesser effect-does this mean rebuilding them will grant you the full bonus? Or upgrading them? Or(Pardon my unwillingness to sift through the code posted) is it only full effect in home territory?

    Also, does this mean the "Trade modifier" from the various buildings also affects the base tax income?
    No matter what you do, higher levels of the market etc (and some other buildings) will not give you the same bonus in far off lands as it will in nearby ones. Frequently, if you check the governor's building, you can see additional tax penalties on them in foreign lands.

    "Additional trade goods" is a +trade, and affects your trade income, not tax income.
    Quote Originally Posted by Soulbourne View Post
    On the corruption: I'm aware of that, even in vanilla I could have settlements with over 1000+ lost/turn from corruption if I wasn't careful. While not normally too painful, since it was mid game not late I was often beginning to pump out huge sets of prefab armies and consequently it did drain my savings. Law and Order is awesome :p
    By my estimate, currently like 20,000 is lost to corruption. In newly taken and undeveloped settlements, corruption eats 50% of the income, it's crazy I tell ya... that could fuel a few stacks.
    Quote Originally Posted by Soulbourne View Post
    Also, how do I tell if it's at the base tax or not? Just add together the buildings? I tried poking around IG, but couldn't really identify anything telling of the base tax, but may of missed it.
    The easiest way to check is: open settlement details. Look at your tax income (hover over, remember the number). Now queue up a bunch of temples or such (buildings with tax income penalty). Now check what the tax income looks like.

    If you're stuck at the base, it won't change. If you are above base, then you'll see it going down.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Economic System, explanations elusive?

    I've been wondering about this myself.
    So there's no reason to build those tax% buildings unless I have a high enough pop already? Welp.

    Anyway, just a quick question to the staff. Is there any point in building those obscenely expensive farms/curias?
    Whenever I bother to build them is when I simply have to avoid the script taking money from me. And even then, I feel that they never make significant changes nor do they ever pay themselves off.

    Also, why don't the farms give +farms bonuses?

    :v

    Also, +rep Alavaria.
    Last edited by Dramatic Cat; March 09, 2014 at 04:58 PM.
    "By what right does the wolf judge the lion?"

  7. #7

    Default Re: Economic System, explanations elusive?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dramatic Cat View Post
    So there's no reason to build those tax% buildings unless I have a high enough pop already? Welp.
    It may be worthwhile if your Public Order/Law buildings haven't already put you massively into a hole of income tax% penalties. In many cases, your Governor building has -50% or even more of penalty. So in general, I check using the method above ^^ if I'm "in the hole". Most settlements are, so I never develop them for more income (unless you count +law, to reduce the corruption)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dramatic Cat View Post
    Anyway, just a quick question to the staff. Is there any point in building those obscenely expensive farms/curias?
    I don't. But the AI does Or settlements start the game with them.

    Unlike standard RTW, you don't build them everywhere. Which is sort of historic and logical. (Ironically, I still get no bonus in most settlements, so you have huge cities with just a little market in them or something)
    Quote Originally Posted by Dramatic Cat View Post
    Also, why don't the farms give +farms bonuses?
    1. It's hard to control farm income (thus they give tax bonuses... which are largely wasted if you're in the hole)
    2. You can't reduce population growth from farms, health etc. Check the population control buildings; they use -%population growth.

    %population growth is a specific stat, it cannot go below 0. So when you have farm levels, you can't reduce pop growth from "Farming" (another stat). In this case you can.

    Since you can't destroy farms, this is helpful as you can control population more effectively.
    Last edited by Alavaria; March 09, 2014 at 05:06 PM.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Economic System, explanations elusive?

    Good to know.
    I'll never bother with those markets and farms again.

    :v
    "By what right does the wolf judge the lion?"

  9. #9

    Default Re: Economic System, explanations elusive?

    Assuming my RTW isn't outdated-if your losing a stat in the settlement info sheet, it has a faded out icon( s ) showing the current amount, with the others representing the new estimated total. In contrast to flashing which tells you the estimated increase with current builds. Don't necessarily need to remember the original number.

    Also, about the farms-having sustenance farming all over was normal, even if major crop fields were more exclusive. However, if I'm playing Dacia and conquer carthage-I would expect that farms there, even if hounded by inefficiency, would be more profitable to my at home simply because the soil in north africa in this period rocked. However, I can't see this being mirrored without the base farming stuff which was apparently taken out. Not without some other workaround that may unbalance the economy anyways >.>

    Thanks for all the help though. This helps clarify a lot of things.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Economic System, explanations elusive?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dramatic Cat View Post
    Good to know.
    I'll never bother with those markets and farms again.
    Note that Wells -> Cistern line needs market buildings as a pre-req, and they are pretty nice buildings as well.

    Farms, yeah... if I want population, the pop growth building is pretty good, has 3 levels with 3% each per level. Farms are only 0.5% per level I think. You can combine that with Cisterns etc to make some truly massive settlement populations.
    Quote Originally Posted by Soulbourne View Post
    However, if I'm playing Dacia and conquer carthage-I would expect that farms there, even if hounded by inefficiency, would be more profitable to my at home simply because the soil in north africa in this period rocked.
    Slightly incorrect as there is still base farming income around. What was removed is that upgrading farms does not increase farm income, but tax income (which is presumably you taxing farmers).

    Carthage and other settlements in regions with "Grain" in them DO get a bonus to population growth specifically from Grain (I think this is hardcoded). You cannot reduce this by population control buildings either.


    I forgot to mention, besides 1. Law (reduces corruption)...
    2: Increasing public order makes settlements more profitable by
    A. allowing you to use the minimum garrison (1 unit of the cheapest skirmishers)
    B. increasing the tax rate. This will increase tax income even if your tax income bonus% is way into the hole. This is because it acts as a multiplier.

    Additionally,
    3: a good governor helps as well by
    A. Regional Govenor trait increases tax income. By a multiplier. You DEFINITELY want one in your capital, or for Rome, any settlements with major income in them.
    B. Management skill also adds income. I think it scales based on total income, so big tax earners or ones with mines that produce lots of cash are good
    C. Some traits and ancillaries raise trade income, in some places, (italy/greece) trade income is decent.

    Try to aim for Very High taxes, but you'll have to go down to low after a while most likely because of the Settlement Loyalty trait being annoying. So watch out for that...
    Last edited by Alavaria; March 10, 2014 at 01:15 AM.

  11. #11
    dvk901's Avatar Consummatum est
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    Default Re: Economic System, explanations elusive?

    A couple notes:

    The -50 tax penalties in all core buildings is 'no governor present' tax penalty. The idea here was to encourage the player to have governors, and through traits, to affect a better balance for income. When a character IS the governor of a settlement, he gets a trait called "Regional Governor', I think, and a +50 tax bonus that offsets the core building penalty.

    Also, the 'farming_level 1'....2, 3, 4 etc. is an addition to the farm level 'base'. In descr_regions.txt, every region has a farming level base...usually between 3-10. Sometimes higher. What that means is that a settlement with descr_regions.txt 'hard base' of '10' will have a 5 percent population growth no matter what you do with population negative bonuses. You can never get it below 5%. The farming_level bonus in farms raises this another number...so if you built all the farms, you'd get a farming level boost of 5. Add that to the 10 already there, and you have 15, for a 7.5% population growth that you cannot get rid of (because you can't destroy the farms, and you can't go below the descr_regions 'base'.

    The 'game', for some reason, can show you a lower growth than the base....like '0' or a negative number, but you as the player cannot lower it below the base with buildings. I don't know why that is, but that's the way it works.

    I first introduced the population growth\decrease buildings in RS1...but they didn't work because I was then unaware of this issue with the farming 'base' population growth. But I DID notice that the AI loved to build the population growth buildings...stands to reason, since the AI loves a lot of people from which to recruit units. So what we did in RS2 was reduce the base in descr_regions.txt, and then removed the 'farming_level' bonus from the farms. This allowed the population control buildings to work 'better'...not perfect...but the AI can increase population if it wants, and you can destroy the buildings (and the increases), or, you can opt for population increases....which is kinda fun. I've gotten Rome up to 200,000...but for some reason it seems to level off there.

    Creator of: "Ecce, Roma Surrectum....Behold, Rome Arises!"
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  12. #12
    High Fist's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Economic System, explanations elusive?

    But in locations closer to home, should those buildings (farms, markets) be built?
    The only self-discipline you need is to finish your sandwiches

  13. #13

    Default Re: Economic System, explanations elusive?

    Quote Originally Posted by dvk901 View Post
    The -50 tax penalties in all core buildings is 'no governor present' tax penalty. The idea here was to encourage the player to have governors, and through traits, to affect a better balance for income. When a character IS the governor of a settlement, he gets a trait called "Regional Governor', I think, and a +50 tax bonus that offsets the core building penalty.
    The trait doesn't work that way. You can see that when you have a governor with a settlement "in the hole", building things for income tax bonus% still will not increase your tax any further. This is because the effect of tax rate (Low -> Very High) and the governors bonuses (like Regional Governor) is to multiply the tax income.

    Otherwise why goes +50 tax lead to an increase of 10000 in Sparta, while building 50% of tax income bonus buildings only adds like 500

    Ok fine, let me screenshot some stuff from my capital and some outer settlements to show this.

    Quote Originally Posted by dvk901 View Post
    I've gotten Rome up to 200,000...but for some reason it seems to level off there.
    The main limiter on population (squalor) tops out at some point (I think it is -12.5% population) and once you hit that, population grows exponentially.

    200,000 is the max the game has for population. It isn't supposed to ever reach that so
    Last edited by Alavaria; March 10, 2014 at 11:31 AM.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Economic System, explanations elusive?

    Lol. RTW celebrates its decade now and im still learning something new about it fairly often... Also loving the dev discussion in the main part of the forum.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Economic System, explanations elusive?

    Quote Originally Posted by dvk901 View Post
    The -50 tax penalties in all core buildings is 'no governor present' tax penalty. The idea here was to encourage the player to have governors, and through traits, to affect a better balance for income. When a character IS the governor of a settlement, he gets a trait called "Regional Governor', I think, and a +50 tax bonus that offsets the core building penalty.
    "offsets" =/= "you are no longer in the hole" for anyone wondering if adding a governor means making tax bonus buildings worthwhile. The specific mechanic is that Regional Governor etc multiplies your tax income. Whereas the building's bonus adds linearly or something.


    Tax screenshots.zip Screenshots

    Pergamon, a settlement "in the hole"

    With governor: 2556
    and with tax bonus buildings: 2556
    and with tax penalty buildings: 2556

    Without governor: 1461
    and with tax buildings: 1461

    So this governor multiplies tax income by 2556/1461 = 1.749 (75% bonus)

    -----------------

    Sparta, a settlement not "in the hole"
    the "tax bonus buildings" give 20+10+10+10=50% of building tax income bonus%

    With governor: 34134
    and with tax bonus buildings: 35698
    and with tax penalty buildings: 33897

    Without governor: 21604
    and with tax bonus buildings: 22594
    and with tax penalty buildings: 21454

    --------------------

    So in Sparta (since it is the only one showing differences)
    The governor multiplies tax income by 34134/21604=1.597, or a 60% bonus

    The upgrades give:
    WITH governor 35698-34134 = 1564
    WITHOUT governor. 22594-21604 = 990
    So... 1564/990 = 1.597

    What about the ones with tax penalty?
    WITH governor: 34134-33897 = 237
    WITHOUT governor: 21604-21454 = 150
    So... 237/150= 1.58


    Clearly the governor is just multiplying the tax income by 1+ (his bonus). It doesn't act in the same way as a building's "tax income bonus" does.

    I can move someone to a settlement with nothing but just a governor's house or close to it, the effect is the same. (Oh, it'll automatically be in the hole, as they have the penalty though, so basically the same as Pergamon)


    Oh, yeah you can also see that my pergamon guy would be better situated in Sparta, his extra 15% multiplier would be worth 3000 more income. Wow. That's half a stack right there. I suppose it would be best to check the bonus for each general and then reassign the top guy to Sparte ...


    -------------------------


    As a side note, the way a positive and negative building tax income bonus interact is unusual and not what you'd expect. Building a +10% and then a -10% results in a lower tax income, so I'm not sure about that.
    Last edited by Alavaria; March 10, 2014 at 12:09 PM.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Economic System, explanations elusive?

    I've at least been of the impression it was intended to
    1. have players have governors (for low tax income settlements, probably not worth it)
    2. leave all the outer settlements undeveloped economy wise

    I mean basically, the outer areas (which is nearly everywhere except immediately around my capital) are just weird concentration camps where all you do are pray at temples, get taxed and have people spying on you (Law buildings) so you pay your tax.

    Oh and have children, lots of children who grow up worshipping Ares/Athena (the two spartan temples that give +law) and... paying taxes and being spied on.

    Wait you know what. That sounds like a helot's life. oh snap...


    Though the difference is you can't possibly be being watched by actual Spartans because they are few in number and just endlessly on campaigns of extermination.
    Last edited by Alavaria; March 10, 2014 at 12:28 PM.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Economic System, explanations elusive?

    Not "True Spartans" but there were never more than 1000 of those-normally less. There was some psuedo-group that wasn't true spartans but wasn't a Helot either I believe though.

    Also, don't forget the spartan KGB-the most elite of the spartans were exiled from the city, forced to live in thee wild even into adulthood, and killed off any helots who were too smart for their own good.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Economic System, explanations elusive?

    Yeah, though in the context of my campaign, they will be stretched thin over greece, macedonia, italy, gallia, africa, asia minor... too much area and too many people to cover

  19. #19

    Default Re: Economic System, explanations elusive?

    Well, you could always have prominent Spartan families "Sacrifice" there purity to create ruling dynasties with muddled true blood govern over other areas. They forsake their true spartan purity, but allow for the spartan loyalty and influence to spread with these "bastard sons" so to speak. Spartans were practical at times.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Economic System, explanations elusive?

    That's basically the story I was going with, yeah.

    But given that I took over half of the world in only 16 years, that's not long enough to raise children (possibly one generation) to actually do that, so it's more like most of the areas are client states or something.

    Mine you, Agesipolis was only 16 when he conquered Athenai on turn 2, so

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