Ukraine and Crimea development thread

[Heathen Hammer]

Not by its elected council.

I can't find any non-Russian sources saying that about Zhitomir.
[/SIZE][/FONT]

So Geronimo, do you have sources for the previous claims you've made? You seem to come back to this thread all the time, yet you are yet to address those.

[Hereford 245]

If Rt is correct hundreds of soldiers have defected in Slavyansk. If the government sends troops and these troops defect to the rebels then it would be better not to send at all. As i ve said elsewhere the only way for the west to same the game is to abandon Kiev government

Nonsense. Mirror your foe. What he does to you, you do to him. It's not an eye for an eye, if "Pro Russian" gunmen seize Government buildings you send "Pro Ukrainian" militia without insignia to reinforce buildings that have not been "captured". My God you are falling for a stooge that will cost Ukraine dearly..

[Geronimo2006]

So Geronimo, do you have sources for the previous claims you've made? You seem to come back to this thread all the time, yet you are yet to address those.

I posted links earlier but on the 3-way partition I am looking for the link. I read it this morning.

[Heathen Hammer]

I posted links earlier but on the 3-way partition I am looking for the link. I read it this morning.

We are yet to see a link on your first claim that Russians migrated there during Stalin's rule, especially given how those territories were populated by Russians before October Revolution even happened.

[Heathen Hammer]

So CIA director is being rather friendly with the current Ukrainian regime. Wouldn't be surprised if they do a false flag attack on civilians/Ukrainian military to provoke more bloodshed and make anti-government protesters look bad.

[Geronimo2006]

Donetsk separatists pass anti semitic laws. Jews required to register or be deported and have to pay a fine.

Donetsk Pro-Russians Order Jews to 'Register or be Deported' for Supporting Kiev Rule

Heathen Hammer on Russian colonisation of Ukraine. See here and here.

The first waves of Russian settlers onto Ukrainian territory came in the late 16th century to the area knowna as Slobozhanschyna or Sloboda Ukraina, in what is now northeastern Ukraine. This territory was settled after being abandoned by the Tatars.^[2] Russian settlers however were outnumbered by Ukrainian settlers who were escaping harsh exploitative conditions in the west.^[3]More Russian speakers appeared in northern, central and eastern Ukrainian territories during the late 17th century, following the Cossack Rebellion led by Bohdan Khmelnytsky. Following the Pereyaslav Rada the modern northern and eastern parts of Ukraine entered into the Tsardom of Russia. This brought a small wave of Russian settlers into central Ukraine (primarily several thousand soldiers stationed in garrisons,^[3] out of a population of approximately 1.2 million ^[4] non-Russians). Although the number of Russian settlers in Ukraine prior to the eighteenth century was small, the local upper classes within the part of Ukraine acquired by Russia began to use the Russian language.
Beginning in the late eighteenth century, large numbers of Russians settled in newly acquired lands in southern Ukraine, a region then known as Novorossiya ("New Russia"). These lands had been largely empty prior to the eighteenth century due to the constant threat of raids by the Crimean Tatars, and once the Tatar state was eliminated, Russian nobles were granted large tracts of fertile land that was worked by newly arrived peasants, most of whom were ethnic Ukrainians but some of whom were Russians.^[5]
The nineteenth century saw a dramatic increase in the urban Russian population in Ukraine, as Russian settlers moved into and populated the newly industrialized and growing towns. This phenomenon helped turn Ukraine's most important towns into Russophone environments. By the beginning of the 20th century the Russians were the largest ethnic group in almost all of Ukraine's largest cities, including the following: Kiev (54.2%), Kharkiv (63.1%), Odessa (49.09%), Mykolaiv (66.33%), Mariupol (63.22%), Luhansk (68.16%),Kherson (47.21%), Melitopol (42.8%), Dnipropetrovsk (41.78%), Kirovohrad (34.64%), Simferopol (45.64%), Yalta (66.17%), Kerch (57.8%), Sevastopol (63.46%).^[6]

Labor force transfer[edit]

Punitive transfers of population transfers handled by Gulag^[34] and the system of involuntary settlements in the Soviet Union were planned in accordance with the needs of the colonization of the remote and underpopulated territories of the Soviet Union. (Their large scale has led to a controversial opinion in the West that the economic growth of the Soviet Union was largely based on the slave labor of Gulag prisoners.) At the same time, on a number of occasions the workforce was transferred by non-violent means, usually by means of "recruitment" (вербовка). This kind of recruitment was regularly performed at forced settlements, where people were naturally more willing to resettle. For example, the workforce of the Donbass and Kuzbass mining basins is known to have been replenished in this way. (As a note of historical comparison, in Imperial Russia the mining workers at state mines (bergals, "бергалы", from German Bergbau, 'mining') were often recruited in lieu of military service which, for a certain period, had a term of 25 years).

[Foreign Fruitcake]

"Ukrainian troops have entered the eastern town of Kramatorsk a day after an operation began to recapture areas seized by anti-government separatists.

But the Ukrainian defense ministry says six armored personnel carriers were captured by pro-Russian militants".


Other reports suggest the Ukrainian troops may have abandoned their vehicles or changed sides.

All Is lost.

[Heathen Hammer]

Donetsk separatists pass anti semitic laws. Jews required to register or be deported and have to pay a fine.

The authenticity of the leaflet could not be independently verified.

.

[Foreign Fruitcake]

.

Eastern Ukraine has a long history of Jew Hatred.

[Derpy Hooves]

Eastern Ukraine has a long history of Jew Hatred.

​That may be true, but I have to agree with HH on this one. It seems way too convenient. Best to wait and see.

[Heathen Hammer]

Eastern Ukraine has a long history of Jew Hatred.

You mean Western?

[Geronimo2006]

You mean Western?

During the Khmelnetsky rising against Poland in alliance with Russia, tens of thousands of Jews were massacred. That was Eastern Ukraine.

Meanwhile anti-Maidanists in Odessa deny Russian media claims they have declared an "Odessa Republic".

Also the SBU have found a bomb at a Poltava bridge.

[Papay]

During the Khmelnetsky rising against Poland in alliance with Russia, tens of thousands of Jews were massacred. That was Eastern Ukraine.

Meanwhile anti-Maidanists in Odessa deny Russian media claims they have declared an "Odessa Republic".

Also the SBU have found a bomb at a Poltava bridge.

You mean 400 years ago? What that has to do with today?
In Western Ukraine there are still some people who actively cooperated with the Nazis and helped them kill thousands of Jews

[Derpy Hooves]

All over Europe there are still some people who actively cooperated with the Nazis and helped them kill thousands of Jews

Fixed

[Heathen Hammer]

During the Khmelnetsky rising against Poland in alliance with Russia, tens of thousands of Jews were massacred. That was Eastern Ukraine.

In 17th century. It was an uprising by Zaporozhian Cossacks and Crimean Tatars against Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. I don't really see how it is relevant to modern Novorossija anyways.

Fixed

Yeah, but he was claiming that Eastern Ukraine was specifically anti-Semitic because of Cossack uprising that happened 400 years ago.

[Geronimo2006]

SBU predicts Russian-backed murder to justify full-scale invasion

[Plan C]

Georgij Alafuzoff, Director of EU Intelligence Directorate, in an interview with Finnish "Yle" apparently reckons there is no Russian military presence in Eastern Ukraine at all:

http://www.focus.de/politik/angeblic...d_5705662.html

It's in German, but I suppose it's better than Finnish

SBU predicts Russian-backed murder to justify full-scale invasion

They would say that, though, wouldn't they?

[Geronimo2006]

Georgij Alafuzoff, Director of EU Intelligence Directorate, in an interview with Finnish "Yle" apparently reckons there is no Russian military presence in Eastern Ukraine at all:

http://www.focus.de/politik/angeblic...d_5705662.html

It's in German, but I suppose it's better than Finnish

He is Finnish. The legacy of Finlandisation may be playing a role for some Finnish officials, terrified of upsetting Russia. The NATO satellite images seem clear enough.

[The Noble Lord]

Eastern Ukraine has a long history of Jew Hatred.

What kind of fascist propaganda is this?? On the contrary it is western Ukraine and particularly the city of Lvov that has been the European capitol of most primitive
and crude antisemitism that has ever existed! It is those fascists in Lvov that even today are propagating the most primitive form of antisemitism, it is them that are
yelling and shouting the slogans that they shouted in 1941 when they annihilated Jewish population of Lvov, an act that horrified even the Nazis. It is those fascists
in Lvov that are glorifying Stepan Bandera who was the Ukrainian Nazi collaborator and violent antisemite.

It is that city of Lvov that will always stay in infamy because today in 2014 this is the only place in Europe where fascism is glorified and where school children in
schools are taught the slogans such as: "beat the Jews", and "death to Jews". On the contrary the eastern Ukraine has been a melting pot of peoples during the Russian
empire and during the Soviet Union where many Jews settled and prospered, hundreds of thousands of them fought in the Red Army against the Nazis and their western Ukrainian
collaborators!

Even today in this day and age the city of Lvov is the lair of the fascist beast and the stronghold of the European antisemitism where antisemitic fanatics are
in power and are educating the young in their ideology of garbage!!

Next time you want to make historical statement and accuse a certain region of something, better do your research!!

That may be true,

It's not true, it has nothing to do with historical reality!!

During the Khmelnetsky rising against Poland in alliance with Russia, tens of thousands of Jews were massacred. That was Eastern Ukraine.

Khmelnitsky uprising was in western Ukraine mainly and you didn't even have cities of Donetsk and Dnepropetrovsk back then! The Jewish population was situated
in Polish controlled parts of Ukraine therefore it was in the west and particularly the city of Lvov where local antisemitic fanatics slaughtered Jews on mass.

Do your research first, look into it before the statement!!

[Heathen Hammer]

They would say that, though, wouldn't they?

Indeed. Especially after CIA director's visit to Kiev, I wouldn't be surprised if it would end up other way around, with a false flag op, in which either Ukrainian military or civilians will be attacked by individuals posing as "separatists" to justify further escalation of the conflict by Yatsenjuk and his cronies.