Ukraine and Crimea development thread

[Adar]

Probably not the best way to kick this off, but let's do it.



Astaroth. Your post is rubbish, I am sorry to say. It lacks supporting information and is pure bias; I am, frankly, agog that you produced this.

All I get from this post is "Russia is bad" and "America may be worse, but that's OK". You abuse the crap out of double standards in this post and never even bother to answer the post you're replying to. I fear we will have to leave this here, but I urge - read your post again and tell me if you see any bias, any inconsistencies in it at all. I will give you a hint - calling one actor aggressive, untrustworthy, uncaring etc without supporting evidence, and then say that another actor is OK to be like that because they are our friends (and a democracy!... c'mon man) is just vicious propaganda and, frankly, offensive to intellect.

I struggle to understand how you could have wrote this. Speak later bud.

There is literally already a truck load of supporting information. Simon even made a yet another post with sources just a few posts above yours.

[Geronimo2006]

The pro-Russia mayor of Slaviansk says the Russians are looting the town!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtxch7g-g5A

[Simon Cashmere]

What we are witnessing is the equivalent of the US invading Canada, and pretending US service personnel driving US registered Army trucks, were in fact, local spontaneous American supporter Canadians who just happened to own armoured personal carriers, shoulder fired missiles, and army trucks. If America was to do that, I imagine there would be just as much dithering on the part of the EU and the Security Council. Nobody wants to go to war, and that's what Putin is counting on, if he takes Ukraine, or part of Ukraine, who will stop him? Putin doesn't care about sanctions, he's a billionaire, the people might suffer but him and his cronies wont.

Is being part of Russia better for the average person, the average person in Russia has a low standard of living - very low compared to what we are used to in the West. While there are fabulously rich people, the average person has a very tough life.

The pro-Russia mayor of Slaviansk says the Russians are looting the town!

That's what happened in the invasion of Georgia, the Russian troops stole everything not nailed down, and even some things that were like ATMs that were bricked into walls.

[Geronimo2006]

Livestream from Horlivka here.

[Astaroth]

Astaroth. Your post is rubbish, I am sorry to say. It lacks supporting information and is pure bias; I am, frankly, agog that you produced this.

All I get from this post is "Russia is bad" and "America may be worse, but that's OK". You abuse the crap out of double standards in this post and never even bother to answer the post you're replying to. I fear we will have to leave this here, but I urge - read your post again and tell me if you see any bias, any inconsistencies in it at all. I will give you a hint - calling one actor aggressive, untrustworthy, uncaring etc without supporting evidence, and then say that another actor is OK to be like that because they are our friends (and a democracy!... c'mon man) is just vicious propaganda and, frankly, offensive to intellect.

I struggle to understand how you could have written this. Speak later bud.

I can't force you to read sources which have been posted by countless people here in this thread. It is clear that Russia is the aggressor in this conflict, lead by a man stuck in delusions of lost USSR-grandeur (which he himself has admitted) who wants to "re-claim" land he considers Russian by so-called historic and ethnic right. A man that attempts to re-draw borders by military force, threats and pressure.

You are hiding behind false moral equivalences, but your posts here clearly support the morally, politically, democratically, economically and militarily inferior side of this conflict. Enjoy.

[Simon Cashmere]

Russia isn't bad - Putin is bad, for Russia. He is playing a very high stakes game of poker, and his people are the chips he is betting.

Gone are the days, we'd hoped, where someone with the biggest army could roll in and take whatever they like. If those days are back, it means, anyone can take anything - and we are back to the days just before World War I and World War II. Both of those wars meant millions of people died, and that could easily happen here - and for what - a few crappy bits of land in Ukraine?

And I have to LOL about people saying that the civilian militia have RPG-30s. They were only made in 2013, they are the latest and best launcher equipped for Russian forces. Nobody else has them...except Russian troops. To say that the 'rent a crowd' got them from Ukrainian police stations is utterly laughable. Ukrainian police with the latest Russian rocket launcher?

[Thorn777]

thats some good reporting dude, just shows some residents clearly do not welcome these putin tourist, but are forced to bite there lip in such circumstances.

These guys almost had there ticket punched by Putin tourist


@ Nihilism - so you can relay this back to your buddies at the kremlin, let erm no there doing a good job.

I think what we are seeing now, is small groups of either special op's or veterans clearing the way, whom for the most part are fairly heavily equipped compared to the standard "local defence force" or "tourist", but in comparison to the armed men in crimea, perhaps not wielding bazookers, but more importantly these guys are very well coordinated, by senior russian officers working directly in the interest of the kremlin. I've shown footage of a tourist bus actually picking up armed individuals with green arm bands on, dressed like locals, looking like they were being moved on to another location. While others have been taking police uniforms, for what purpose i do not know? Also note, there has been some articles on spetnaz being caught, other article of tourist claiming they had a minder and so on.

Here are some videos, the supposed live intercepted call at the end, i'm not sure about, but posted it anyway. But there is clearly some foul play going on, storming police buildings, for arms, setting up blockades and checkpoint at critical strategic points, it's a pretty well organised protest. Not sure even maiden protest had this efficiency. The logistic in this protest our rivals that of crimea to some extent, the flow of weapons to arm individuals, the vans arriving in 20 min interval offloading sandbags and tires for barricade moments after a admin building was stormed. These cities are effectively occupied atm. It is well organised, and professional, although there is alot of drinking going on. But they are tourist after all.

If you take the time to read this link below, you will see that they have an official site for touring Ukraine.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...n-ukraine.html
offical site is called "russian spring" that is inspiring russians to flock to Ukraine.....
http://rusvesna.su/


Some videos below

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Stuff relating to what i said earlier about being organised and planned perhaps by the kremlin.


http://www.interpretermag.com/ukrain...the-east/#2267



Transcript for video in spoiler below.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The Interpreter has translated this video:Lieutenant Colonel: [on phone] I understand. That's it. Let's go.

Policeman: We need to go.

Lt. Col.: [To Line-Up] Fall in! Attention!

Greetings, Comrades!

Greetings! I am a lieutenant colonel

Policeman: Of what?

Lt. Col.: Of the Russian Army, to be precise, a lieutenant colonel. Good morning!

Policemen: Good morning, Comrade Lieutenant!

Lt. Col.: Look! From here on, from this minute, the head of the Interior Ministry of the city of Gorlovka is appointed Aleksandr Fyodorovich Sluzhenko. You are to follow all his instructions without question. At this time, your assignment is to take out the police officers -- there are normal, loyal people here -- to bring them peacefully out of this situation -- I'll be there -- and bring them back here.

Your assignment:

- Maintain public order
- Prevent looting

You understand, yes?

- Prevent unauthorized seizure of buildings

In order to distinguish you from all the other police officers who have not yet come over to the side of the people, I ask you all to tie a St. George ribbon on your right shoulder strap

Policeman: Do you have any ribbons on you?

Lt. Col.: Gentlemen, the question of the ribbons is still not resolved yet.

Policeman: You should go buy some ribbons.

Lt. Col.: Because I was fighting [inaudible] ...You can understand.

Policeman: Who is going to obey us?


Lt. Col: They will obey you. I've introduced myself. Here's my ID.

Make of this has you will..... btw something worth noting, some of the self defence force from crimea have also travelled to eastern ukraine,


also didn't want to post this yet, was waiting for more solid proof, but apparently there is some walking around with RPG, although the one claimed to be a 30 in thispicture is actually apparently an earlier model.

Can you source from where these pictures at the bottom where taken?


Anyway its highly illogical to have SF like that just wandering a busy broad daylight sidewalk equipped like that when its such a hot issue, its allot more logical western PR advisors got pro-western seperatist Ukrainians to dress up like that. Like Langley cant get its hands on some of those anti-tank items.

All smells typically like a Wag The Dog.


Also the link of those vids points to this:

The Interpreter is underwritten by two registered non-profit organizations: the London-based Herzen Foundation and the New York-based Institute of Modern Russia, of which the journal is a special project.
Both organizations are committed to the advancement of democratic values and institutions in the Russian Federation.

All this proof. Im foaming out my mouth to crush those Russian protestors doing the exact same thing as the western Ukrainians where doing early on. I want blood!

[Geronimo2006]

Kramatorsk has just voluntarily surrendered. - Sky News.

[Simon Cashmere]

Anyway its highly illogical to have SF like that just wandering a busy broad daylight sidewalk equipped like that when its such a hot issue, its allot more logical western PR advisors got pro-western seperatist Ukrainians to dress up like that. Like Langley cant get its hands on some of those anti-tank items.

Did Langley get a hold of Russian helicopters and Russian armoured personnel carriers as well?

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=043_1393770999

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcvUzeewwlI

So the Russian invasion of Crimea and the Eastern Ukraine, is actually, a false flag operation of the Americans. Well that's inventive. Do you have any evidence let alone proof?

[conon394]

Well on a different note the Poles still have a sense of levity




http://www.mediaite.com/print/polish...to-sell-vodka/

[Carach]

Right, OK, I must have missed it, clearly, because to this day I have seen no evidence of that, apart from it having been implied. When you say "confirmed" what is it that you actually mean? Confirmed by whom and on what grounds? I mean, if we're talking FACTS.

mainstream media will not confirm it as they only report on what sides say due to their attempt to remain neutral, which ironically does no favours when states like Russia are churning out misinformation through their rather extensive state-run media outlets that the average joe doesn't have a clue about and thus believes, because western media dont put out anything to the contrary.

However, if one was following military experts and other more upmarket sources at the time, one would have seen it confirmed that these people were no simple militia and mobs. They were Russian military. And u will find that information among the 300 pages of this thread. Certainly, rolling around in military trucks with Russian army plates on them is kind of a give away.

Anyway its highly illogical to have SF like that just wandering a busy broad daylight sidewalk equipped like that when its such a hot issue, its allot more logical western PR advisors got pro-western seperatist Ukrainians to dress up like that. Like Langley cant get its hands on some of those anti-tank items.

because they were oh-so-careful during the crimean campaign right?

They dont need to hide jack . average people dont have a clue whats going on and they dont recognise the difference between a guy with one of the millions of AK's and a chap with hand held anti tank equipment.. The misinformation is just to delay and throw the opposition off for a time to get other things in order. It has worked well for them several times already so why not give it another go.

This is exactly why the 'western' media has actually frustrated me so much. They are in fact so dedicated to being impartial that they are damaging their own credibility. Relying on russian state-owned press for information so that people generally only have access to what our governments are saying and on the other hand what the Russian media outlets are putting out. Therefore giving a rather skewed presentation of things that completely miss out very key facts.

That is the bigger part of the russian operation. That is why they do not need to hide their gear when taking a sightseeing tour of eastern Ukraine. And this will lead to the same idiocy we had during the crimean campaign whereby people are all "oh well they are entitled to self-determination! its democracy!" - SOLDIERS OF ANOTHER COUNTRY FORCING U AT GUNPOINT IS NOT ING DEMOCRACY.

[Simon Cashmere]

And u will find that information among the 300 pages of this thread. Certainly, rolling around in military trucks with Russian army plates on them is kind of a give away.

And APCs, and helicopters, and RPG-30s, and PKM light machine guns, and Spetsnaz uniforms in identical parade ready gear.

[StarDreamer]

So, does anyone have a clear idea what is going on now? Seems like the Ukrainiains started to actually try and retake some areas now.

[Papay]

Is this Syria? Nope. Unfortunately its Ukraine. This is happening right now

[Papay]

Or i might be wrong it could be Syria posted as a Ukraine video

[Treize]

Yes, probably Syria.

[Angrychris]

Puttin really made the west look dumb this year. Olympics then the annexation. Fire with fire type deal. Props.

[YuriVII]

Those don't look as much like RPG-30s. More like RPG 18s....though both weapons look very similar.

Compare RPG-30 and contrast RPG-18

[Geronimo2006]

From The Guardian blog:

"The UN human rights office published a report Tuesday saying that ethnic Russian in eastern Ukraine have falsely claimed to be under attack to justify Russian involvement. Reuters reports:

"Although there were some attacks against the ethnic Russian community, these were neither systematic nor widespread," said the report, which follows two visits to the country last month by Assistant Secretary-General for Human Rights Ivan Simonovic.
"Photographs of the Maidan protests, greatly exaggerated stories of harassment of ethnic Russians by Ukrainian nationalist extremists, and misinformed reports of them coming armed to persecute ethnic Russians in Crimea, were systematically used to create a climate of fear and insecurity that reflected on support to integration of Crimea into the Russian Federation."

Read the UN report here. The Russian foreign ministry called the report "one-sided, politicised and not objective". "One gets the impression that the report was fabricated to correspond with conclusions formed in advance," the ministry said."

According to Euronews, it also cites "widespread evidence of vote rigging" in Crimean referendum.

[Papay]

From The Guardian blog:

"The UN human rights office published a report Tuesday saying that ethnic Russian in eastern Ukraine have falsely claimed to be under attack to justify Russian involvement. Reuters reports:

"Although there were some attacks against the ethnic Russian community, these were neither systematic nor widespread," said the report, which follows two visits to the country last month by Assistant Secretary-General for Human Rights Ivan Simonovic.
"Photographs of the Maidan protests, greatly exaggerated stories of harassment of ethnic Russians by Ukrainian nationalist extremists, and misinformed reports of them coming armed to persecute ethnic Russians in Crimea, were systematically used to create a climate of fear and insecurity that reflected on support to integration of Crimea into the Russian Federation."

Read the UN report here. The Russian foreign ministry called the report "one-sided, politicised and not objective". "One gets the impression that the report was fabricated to correspond with conclusions formed in advance," the ministry said."

UN is US puppet