Ukraine and Crimea development thread

[Geronimo2006]

The Kiev government is presently in full control of a small area around Kiev at the moment. According to the President of the Kiev regime they are no longer in control and aren't being obeyed. What was Ukraine is being dissolved.

It varies from place to place. Rebels are only occupying buildings in Donetsk and Luhansk Oblasts. Generally control increases with the Ukrainian proportion of the population. Russia could help matters by not exploiting the situation for geopolitical advantage. For a start they should rule out military intervention and remove their menacing army from the Ukrainian border. And they could tell their propaganda channels to dampen down the sabre-rattling which appears to be about building a case for intervention.

A poll in April found only 15.4% of people in Eastern Ukraine support leaving Ukraine and 65% support a unitary Ukraine i.e. not federalisation.

[wulfgar610]

It varies from place to place. Rebels are only occupying buildings in Donetsk and Luhansk Oblasts. Generally control increases with the Ukrainian proportion of the population. Russia could help matters by not exploiting the situation for geopolitical advantage. For a start they should rule out military intervention and remove their menacing army from the Ukrainian border. And they could tell their propaganda channels to dampen down the sabre-rattling which appears to be about building a case for intervention.

If you were in Putin's shoes, what would you do? Would you let the Western Serpent slither into to your back yard? Why are Nato troops in the Baltic states, please tell me that?

Countries that have maintained their Independence like Finland have very cleverly remained neutral. Even in World War 2 the Finns refused to aid the Germans in trying to take Leningrad, they were smart. They know their history.

[Aquila SPQR]

Why are Nato troops in the Baltic states, please tell me that?

Because Baltic states are independent and want it. They know what Russians are capable of (just look at poor Ukraine) and they want to protect themselves from this aggresive neo-imperialism monster.

[Geronimo2006]

If you were in Putin's shoes, what would you do? Would you let the Western Serpent slither into to your back yard? Why are Nato troops in the Baltic states, please tell me that?

Countries that have maintained their Independence like Finland have very cleverly remained neutral. Even in World War 2 the Finns refused to aid the Germans in trying to take Leningrad, they were smart. They know their history.

If I were Putin I would pursue drastically different policies to those he is following. The anti-Western policy for one. NATO has no intention of attacking Russia as it is a nuclear power. It is interested in protecting the independence of its members from imperialism. And as it turns out with good reason.

If Russia wanted to deter NATO expansion it may have the opposite effect. Ask the Baltic states if they regret joining.

[pajomife]

The Kiev government is presently in full control of a small area around Kiev at the moment. According to the President of the Kiev regime they are no longer in control and aren't being obeyed. What was Ukraine is being dissolved.

It's amazing that all that is happening was encouraged by, the U.S. and the EU. and now nobody knows what to do. Ukrainians should be well repentant,they will lost everything even their country.

[Derpy Hooves]

Why are Nato troops in the Baltic states, please tell me that?

​I don't know, maybe it's because of historical and current Russian aggression?

[Geronimo2006]

Sky says civilians in Slaviansk say separatists are shooting at civilians trying to leave. Sounds like Al Qaida.

[wulfgar610]

It's amazing that all that is happening was encouraged by, the U.S. and the EU. and now nobody knows what to do. Ukrainians should be well repentant,they will lost everything even their country.

If I was in Putin's shoes I'd let Ukraine retain its Independence if they returned to Status Quo. But I'm a softy, history is seldom won by softies.

If Russia wanted to deter NATO expansion it may have the opposite effect. Ask the Baltic states if they regret joining.

They will when they lose their independence. Look at Finland, it ain't a member, no problemo. They are smart, but the Balts are fools!

​I don't know, maybe it's because of historical and current Russian aggression?

Historically the Baltic state area has been another staging post for aggression against Russia..............next on the list unless they change their stance.

[Derpy Hooves]

Historically the Baltic state area has been another staging post for aggression against Russia..............next on the list unless they change their stance.

​And your point? The fact is, the Baltic states are sovereign countries. Neither Russia nor the US can dictate their policies. They have no right to do so.

[snuggans]

there is something oddly hilarious about former Soviet bloc countries requesting defense shields and admittance into NATO, and then Russia feeling threatened about this, and apologists using the defense shields or Russia feeling threatened as some sort of point to stand on? not only that but they repeatedly try to pass off what these countries have asked for as something that NATO is somehow forcing upon them. all the while still managing to put a guy as head of a major state news agency who talks about Russia being able to turn countries into radioactive ash? bizarro world.

[Roma_Victrix]

I haven't paid attention to it at all since I first heard it, but is there any veracity to the claim made by Putin last month about covert US "Greystone" (i.e. offshoot of the American private security service Blackwater, now Academi, which you may remember from Iraq) operatives helping the Ukrainians take back the east? Or is this just unfounded speculation that he tossed onto the table for us to ponder over? I can never tell with Putin; reading his pithy observations is like watching an expert world series poker game.

[Nevins]

If you were in Putin's shoes, what would you do? Would you let the Western Serpent slither into to your back yard?

The Western Serpent? What garbage is this

Why are Nato troops in the Baltic states, please tell me that?

Because those countries requested NATO troops there to help guarantee their independence from Russia?

Countries that have maintained their Independence like Finland have very cleverly remained neutral. Even in World War 2 the Finns refused to aid the Germans in trying to take Leningrad, they were smart. They know their history.

You are aware that the Finns work with NATO right? And do you think that everything that has been happening is pushing the Finns and Swedes closer or farther from friendly relations with the Russians?

[wulfgar610]

there is something oddly hilarious about former Soviet bloc countries requesting defense shields and admittance into NATO, and then Russia feeling threatened about this, and apologists using the defense shields or Russia feeling threatened as some sort of point to stand on? not only that but they repeatedly try to pass off what these countries have asked for as something that NATO is somehow forcing upon them. all the while still managing to put a guy as head of a major state news agency who talks about Russia being able to turn countries into radioactive ash? bizarro world.

Certain Politicians pockets were filled with gold to do so. It is fact a betrayal of their own people. Finland has preserved its independence for a century by keeping a neutral stance. Russia will not tolerate anti Russian alliances on border unless they are somebody big like China.

​And your point? The fact is, the Baltic states are sovereign countries. Neither Russia nor the US can dictate their policies. They have no right to do so.

How many years of history have they known that? 20 years after the fall of the Russian Empire, 23 years now after the fall of the Soviet Union. There's a lesson there from Finland they have chosen to ignore. Anti-Russian alliances on its Borders shorten your lifespan.

[Farnan]

Since the Baltic States are NATO they have nothing to worry about

[Derpy Hooves]

Certain Politicians pockets were filled with gold to do so. It is fact a betrayal of their own people. Finland has preserved its independence for a century by keeping a neutral stance. Russia will not tolerate anti Russian alliances on border unless they are somebody big China.



How many years of history have they known that? 20 years after the fall of the Russian Empire, 23 years now after the fall of the Soviet Union. There's a lesson there from Finland they have chosen to ignore. Anti-Russian alliances on its Borders shorten your lifespan.

Actually in the interwar years, the Baltic states were not in any major anti-Russian alliance. They learned a lesson from that.

[Roma_Victrix]

Since the Baltic States are NATO they have nothing to worry about

I thought this was obvious...apparently it's not obvious to some people.

[Ownager]

If US can do it, then so can Russia. Welcome to geopolitics, where countries don't have principles, they have interests.

I understand Russia has its own agenda to reach, but if they seriously thought they could get away with it by blaming the US and all the West, then they better think again. They might excuse themselves, but the world won't. Seriously though, even if you had a ruthless manner of fulfilling your agendas, does that mean Russia wants to start another World War because Germany did? Or start another Holocaust because Hitler did? When Russia spouts Nonsense such as this, that is when you truly know who is at fault here.

[wulfgar610]

If US can do it, then so can Russia. Welcome to geopolitics, where countries don't have principles, they have interests.

So true, that's what people forget. In our domestic realms we have law courts, but geopolitics is ruled by the gun. Post world war two the major powers were careful for a while. In the case of Vietnam the Americans were invited in by the military junta they had helped establish. The Russians did the same with Afghanistan. This was diplomatic disguise for obvious aggression. But Iraq in 2003 had no justification, the World took note. It's now back to shoot first and ask questions later.

[Ownager]

Other peoples business? LOL. Soviet union allowed Ukraine to leave peacefully taking some important Russian territory with them. Instead of the Ukrainians being grateful for that fact they want to overthrow pro-Russian governments that are legally elected. Ok. Time for these territories to abandon Kiev because Western Ukrainians do not care about what people vote in the east.
Bty your assertion that USA has not taken any land is laughable. The original USA consisted of about a dozen of states in the eastern coast of America. Since then they expanded west and they even annexed Mexican lands were no Americans were living

Oh I know American history. I know Russian history too. You want me to complain about the Romans taking Carthage where no Romans lived? The Soviets fought in Afghanistan, and in Georgia. Do you want to blame Italy for having taken its southern half by force from the Greeks?

Russia wont invade Ukraine(at least not officially...). The reason is simple:The cost of the annexation of Crimea is huge and Putin knows that annexing other parts of Ukraine is economically dangerous. He wants to persuade Kiev to accept the federalization of Ukraine. This would be a horrible scenario for Ukrainians that want to enter EU. A federalization of Ukraine means that the SE part of Ukraine can veto any attempt of Ukraine joining EU. It is going to be a huge defeat for Eu and US interests and they probably wont accept this. On the other hand, losing the area of Donetsk, is economically disastrous for Kiev. With Donetsk Ukraine could become in the future one of the 5-6 more important countries in EU. Without Donetsk Ukraine is downgraded to a country with small influence. Even worse, when the Donetsk area abandons Kiev, the Russians will stage up revolts in other areas and have the potential of taking over half Ukraine

Remember the 1994 Budapest Memorandum that the Governments of Russia and USA and UK signed, vowing to protect Ukraines territorial integrity in exchange for the destruction of the Nuclear weapons they controlled from the previous Soviet unions stockpile. If Russia had directly violated the agreement, World war three would immediately begin.

[Papay]

Remember the 1994 Budapest Memorandum that the Governments of Russia and USA and UK signed, vowing to protect Ukraines territorial integrity in exchange for the destruction of the Nuclear weapons they controlled from the previous Soviet unions stockpile. If Russia had directly violated the agreement, World war three would immediately begin.

The west wont interfere in Ukraine because their interests are not threatened