Ukraine and Crimea development thread

[Heathen Hammer]

Oh oh, I remember. Was it the Russian invasion of Crimea? Because, besides protests, nothing would have happened.

You mean massive protests all over pro-Russian regions which asked Russians to "invade" to protect them after the coup in Kiev?

[DarthLazy]

You mean massive protests all over pro-Russian regions which asked Russians to "invade" to protect them after the coup in Kiev?

Just like this?

[Derpy Hooves]

You mean massive protests all over pro-Russian regions which asked Russians to "invade" to protect them after the coup in Kiev?

How many people asked for a Russian invasion? And how many of them were Ukrainian citizens instead of RF soldiers? I'll need sources for both.

[Basil II the B.S]

Obama is being squeezed by the hawks that wanted tougher sanctions and business who think it's retarded. Europe has already said no so the US went unilaterally for another round of useless stupidity.

[Geronimo2006]

Putin is trying to revive the concept of a Russian-satellite state remote-controlled from the Kremlin. This is a threat to EU countries on its borders and as such is legitimate grounds for sanctions. Sanctions in my opinion are also required against those spreading anti-Ukrainian propaganda on the Kremlin-TV channels. as they contribute to destabilisation by fuelling recruitment of terrorists. The lies about "Maidan training camps in Latvia" and "Baltic snipers in Slavyansk" should also cease and also the attrocity propaganda like the fictional crucifixion of the 3 yr old child.

[snuggans]

Or Kiev could end these deaths now by laying down their arms and agreeing to stop shelling East Ukraine.

negative, the Ukrainians are merely defending their own territory, they are not going to lay down their arms and let you have it. it's amazing that i have to even point this out. the only person that can end this without any more deaths is Putin, by pulling back his circus. Crimea as well, as i suspect when Donetsk and Lugansk are done with, that'll be next.

[Heathen Hammer]

negative, the Ukrainians are merely defending their own territory, they are not going to lay down their arms and let you have it.

Incorrect. People who actually live there do not want to remain as a part of Ukraine. They have voted accordingly on the referendum in May.

it's amazing that i have to even point this out. the only person that can end this without any more deaths is Putin, by pulling back his circus. Crimea as well, as i suspect when Donetsk and Lugansk are done with, that'll be next.

Incorrect. Putin indeed can end the "circus" by kicking out the clowns (aka Ukrainian "army") out of the region by providing air support for self defense forces. They would win anyways, but with Russian planes it would mean at least less casualties for civilians who are being mercilessly shelled by the occupying Ukrainian troops.

Just like this?

In all 3 cases Russia intervened either too late or not at all.

How many people asked for a Russian invasion? And how many of them were Ukrainian citizens instead of RF soldiers? I'll need sources for both.

http://web.archive.org/web/201402232...russian-crimea

Putin is trying to revive the concept of a Russian-satellite state remote-controlled from the Kremlin.

While Obama is trying to revive the concept of a US-satellite state remote-controlled from the White House. What is your point exactly?

This is a threat to EU countries on its borders and as such is legitimate grounds for sanctions. Sanctions in my opinion are also required against those spreading anti-Ukrainian propaganda on the Kremlin-TV channels. as they contribute to destabilisation by fuelling recruitment of terrorists. The lies about "Maidan training camps in Latvia" and "Baltic snipers in Slavyansk" should also cease and also the attrocity propaganda like the fictional crucifixion of the 3 yr old child.

Proof that self-defense forces are "terrorists"?

[YuriVII]

negative, the Ukrainians are merely defending their own territory, they are not going to lay down their arms and let you have it. it's amazing that i have to even point this out. the only person that can end this without any more deaths is Putin, by pulling back his circus. Crimea as well, as i suspect when Donetsk and Lugansk are done with, that'll be next.

And how would the Ukrainains go about doing Crimea?

[I WUB PUGS]

OPLOTs

[Dromikaites]

And how would the Ukrainains go about doing Crimea?

I can think of two scenarios:

1) They can wait till Russia collapses because of the sanctions. The next round of sectorial sanctions have been introduced yesterday. And the West will keep piling them up till Russia is unable to hold onto Crimea anymore. Do not naively assume that if Eastern Ukraine is pacified, the sanctions will stop. If Eastern Ukraine is pacified, the West would say "And now let's discuss returning Crimea. You refuse to return it? Good, here are new sanctions!". The West is actually after the direct access to Russia's natural resources. Crimea is the pretext Putin stupidly offered.

2) If crap hits the fan in Chechnya again, the Ukrainians might intervene in Crimea directly. Crap is likely to hit the fan in Chechnya due to the fact the food prices have horribly spiked up in the Caucasus and due to the fact the area hasn't yet been pacified completely. In order for the Ukrainians to intervene in Crimea, they need to finish reorganizing and rearming their army first. The current crisis in Eastern Ukraine is providing all the incentives they need in order for that to happen. In 1905 nobody thought Japan would win.

In all likelihood a combination of two scenarios is the most likely way the events would unfold: Ukraine's army would come out of the conflict reformed and modernized, Caucasus will be in flames again and Russia's economy will collapse. So when the Ukrainians would return to Crimea, they might liberate it as easily as it was captured.

[Mementomoridc]

Putin is trying to revive the concept of a Russian-satellite state remote-controlled from the Kremlin. This is a threat to EU countries on its borders and as such is legitimate grounds for sanctions. Sanctions in my opinion are also required against those spreading anti-Ukrainian propaganda on the Kremlin-TV channels. as they contribute to destabilisation by fuelling recruitment of terrorists. The lies about "Maidan training camps in Latvia" and "Baltic snipers in Slavyansk" should also cease and also the attrocity propaganda like the fictional crucifixion of the 3 yr old child.

Holy crap. I knew there was lot's of crap being tossed around from everyone involved, but wow. So you have sources for this stuff or is it more tossing in the name of tossing.

[Geronimo2006]

A video has emerged from Rostov residents of grad rockets being fired into Ukraine.

Proof that self-defense forces are "terrorists"?

They started the conflict. A terrorist organisation is an irregular armed force that attacks civilians for political motives. The Ukrainian military only attacked them after a month of building seizures, murders of pro-Maidan activists e.g Volodymyr Rybak. They also held an unconstitutional referendum and committed treason by inviting another state to invade. They established unelected governments in Donbass and stormed council chambers to try to force them to call referendums. They use unmarked uniforms/vehicles in violation of the Geneva Convention. The latest crime is the Boko Haram-style kidnapping of Ukrainian children from orphanages as reported in the news in recent days.

There are also allegations that Ukrainian women in Luhansk are being used as sex slaves.

[IrishBlood]

The Ukrainian government claim that Russia has shot down an SU-25 according to BBC news

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28345039

Could this possibly be the start of a Russian imposed no-fly-zone over Eastern Ukraine?

There are also allegations that Ukrainian women in Luhansk are being used as sex slaves.

I am very sceptical about that article. I can understand why Russian media would keep a lid on it, but western media would be all over such a story.

Also the conversation between mother and daughter does not sound very believable in my opinion.

Considering the extremly biased source I think I'm going to call BS on this one

[Elemental]

Obama is being squeezed by the hawks that wanted tougher sanctions and business who think it's retarded. Europe has already said no so the US went unilaterally for another round of useless stupidity.

These sanctions is going to hurt Exxon hard. Exxon and Rosneft have a large partnership. Too bad for them and too bad for american buisness.

[Geronimo2006]

The real hawks are those that resort to military aggression. Obama tried to "reset" relations with Putin in 2012 but Putin wasn't interested.

[Elemental]

You couldn't be more wrong

[Condottiere 40K]

Putin wants the reset on his terms.

That includes retaining the Soviet sphere of influence.

[GoTW Kubee]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/russian/interna...h_sniper.shtml

For those of you who can't read Russian, the article talks about a Swedish neo-nazi serving in a special 'anti-terror' unit (Azov Battalion) formed by the Ukrainian gov't. He is a white supremacist who is very concerned about mixed races polluting Europe and says he wants to fight for Asad at some point because he considers him as someone who can stand up against Zionism. It talks about how there are several other neo-nazis in the Azov Battalion and the leader is another white supremacist interested in defending the White Race. Then the reporter phones the Ukrainian Home Office and gets told to 'stop moralising' about 'Ukrainian patriots'. Absolutely sickening; no wonder Eastern Ukrainians have turned against Kiev when it employs and arms people such as this.

But yes, Kiev is the 'good guy' in this story

[Pavlik the Rus]

☩Lord Inquisitor Derpy Hooves☩

Oh oh, I remember. Was it the Russian invasion of Crimea? Because, besides protests, nothing would have happened.

No, you are compleetly wrong.
Those protests in Crimea was started after one event in Ukrain's mainland.
End of february 2014.
Group of crimeans (aproximatly 300 persons) traveled on buses from Kiev to the Crimea. They was a part of anti-maidan in Kiev. Nearby Corsun'-Shevchenkovsky, their busses was stoped, people inside was beaten, 7 men killed. It was done by one of the group of maidan "self-defence"
After arrival of beaten and dead people to the Crimea everything was started.
There are no any traces that new ukrainean goverment will find and punish those, who attacked those group. Same story with Odessa event.
Putin used that situation, not creating it.
And here is glorious video, filmed by one of the activist of that "operation"
Operator amongst the atackers. He sure that he absolutly good guy, meantime his victims are "titushki" and must be...

[Geronimo2006]

Pavlik I think that was a false flag.