Possible Solution to Citizen Referrals

[PikeStance]

This is in regards to the discussion of the CdeC and the mechanism of citizen referral and action.

Having individual citizens refer misbehavior of other citizens have been abused in the past. The removal of the CdeC and replacing it with the Magistrates to decide referral matters seems to have a lot of people concerned. Here is my solution...

Do not have "individual" citizens make referrals per se. I see no reason why you cannot have certain members of the citizenry who's purpose is to ensure a consistent high standard of behavior of citizens. This group can be called Prefects.

PREFECTS

1. The number can be determine (probably 3 to 5)
2. They will be chosen by admin (like moderators) (The Hex will act as supervisors and will be able to comment on discussions as well)
3. They will search forums of their responsibility for citizen misbehavior.
4. If they find something they feel is a violation of the Citizens Code of Conduct, then they report to "Prefecture" (A forum for prefects)
5. Additionally, individuals will still be allowed to "report" what they believe to be CCoC violation. However, if citizens make frivolous reporting, the prefects can take action against such individuals.

PREFECTURE

Upon submission of a potential violation of the CCoC, the prefects will discuss if there is an violation. If they agree there is no violation, then no further action is taken. If they agree, then it is submitted to the Magistrates for further action.

MAGISTRATES

The Magistrates then deliberate. The offender is notified. The Offender then gives an explanation of action. The Prefect also give their reasoning for bring the action to the Magistrate. The Magistrates then deliberate.
HERE IS WHERE I DISAGREE WITH THE MAJORITY. I would NOT involve the Curator. Both magistrate must agree on the course of action. The two Magistrates should be able to find a "middle ground."

ADVANTAGE

1. This should reduce the number of frivolous reporting.
2. It adds an extra step to prevent unnecessary "public" embarrassment.
3. Since the Prefects are appointed by Hex, then they will be above politics. Therefore, unlikely an effective tool for political revenge or personal vendettas.
4. This can be implemented with or without the CdeC.

OTHER THOUGHTS

1. If technically possible, having a reporting button for citizen referrals to make it easier for Prefects
2. Allow non- citizens to report citizens.
3. The color for Prefects can be Bold black or change Tribunes and Magistrates to bold black and Prefects can be regular black

[mishkin]

Sincerely I see no need for all this, if we have moderators who know that a citizen should not behave "in the vulgar ways" of some commoners. The current system seems to me as unnecessarily complicated as the system you propose.
Maybe I am missing something.

[PikeStance]

Sincerely I see no need for all this, if we have moderators who know that a citizen should not behave "in the vulgar ways" of some commoners. The current system seems to me as unnecessarily complicated as the system you propose.
Maybe I am missing something.

[1] The current system have issues even if the CdeC is not abolished. This is mentioned in the OP
[2] Moderators do not report citizen's behavior They report on TOS. Citizen behavior is a higher standard.
[3] Moderator's action is private.

*issue- citizens are making frivolous accusations. If the CdeC is abolished, it would be decided by only 3 individuals. This has people worried.

[Ishan]

Hmm so you added an extra layer called "Prefects" who're chosen by hex just like tribunes are. These prefects would then decide whether a citizen referral is worth passing on towards the magistrates or not. Magistrates decide what action they must take. Why remove curator? A 3rd vote will be a deciding vote in case they've different opinions. Any "middle-ground" will likely breed nonsense and melodrama.

It sounds right but not sure if citizen would like a hex chosen body for this. Anyways lets wait for more opinions.

[mishkin]

[1] The current system have issues even if the CdeC is not abolished. This is mentioned in the OP
[2] Moderators do not report citizen's behavior They report on TOS. Citizen behavior is a higher standard.
[3] Moderator's action is private.

Wouldnt be easier if "citizens behavior" were added to the ToS? (someone has mentioned this somewhere)
Everyone could report citizens "not acting like citizens", moderators would sanction them or not, and they would appeal or not to the tribunal. Defining what is inappropriate behavior of a citizen and his penalty can be hard, but I do not see why we could not use the moderators and the current tribunal.

[PikeStance]

Hmm so you added an extra layer called "Prefects" who're chosen by hex just like tribunes are. These prefects would then decide whether a citizen referral is worth passing on towards the magistrates or not. Magistrates decide what action they must take. Why remove curator? A 3rd vote will be a deciding vote in case they've different opinions. Any "middle-ground" will likely breed nonsense and melodrama.

It sounds right but not sure if citizen would like a hex chosen body for this. Anyways lets wait for more opinions.

My thinking was if the two magistrate disagree, then the one that advocated the least penalty overrules the one with the more severe penalty. This will create a more conservative results. It would be in the Magistrates best interest to come to a clear consensus and to formulate a clear opinion on the matter. Therefore it is unlikely there will be any appearance of laziness as well. As far as melodrama is concern that can happen even with Curator input.

The Hex would be the body best suited for choosing prefects. This would prevent prefects being a popularity contest. Last I check, while not a criteria, all Hex are citizens, so they are equally invested in preserving higher standards for citizens. Moreover, the admin has the best interest of the site in mind. Citizens are active participants and are visible. There conduct reflects on the site and its administration. So, the admin has as much to lose as the curia.

Just to add... If there is a clear Code of Conduct written, then by the time it is passed on by the prefects, the decision would most likely involve the severity of the decision. I moderated for years with a fellow teacher (only the two of us). We often had a different impression on the quality of the student's answers. Our final decision would either be a compromise or one of us would agree with the other. It depended on how well we made our case. There was never any drama HOWEVER, both Magistrates would have to mutual respect for each other. I can see drama if they do not, but that would be true with or without the Curator.

Wouldnt be easier if "citizens behavior" were added to the ToS? (someone has mentioned this somewhere)
Everyone could report citizens "not acting like citizens", moderators would sanction them or not, and they would appeal or not to the tribunal. Defining what is inappropriate behavior of a citizen and his penalty can be hard, but I do not see why we could not use the moderators and the current tribunal.

No, Terms of Service applies to everyone that uses the site. It is an attempt to maintain relative civil discussion so that people feel comfortable using the site. Citizens are recognized members on the board for their contributions. As such, they are asked to maintain a higher level of standard. Violating the TOS may result in bans from the site. Violating a citizens "code" would not. You only need to adhere to the TOS. It would therefore be inappropriate to "add" them to the TOS.

Moderators job is to ensure that everyone adheres to the TOS. It isn't there job, nor should it be, to ensure that citizens are extra nice and polite on the forum. Judging by the number of complaints that moderators are not doing the job, it is safe to say they have enough on their plate. It would be unfair to ask them to take on this added responsibility.

[mishkin]

You think that would be a big deal to add a section to the ToS applicable only to citizens?

Edit: Ññññeee. Now I understand what you say. Regarding what I said, better "Moderation rules applicable when you accept citizenship" instead of "adding a section to the ToS"

[Inkie]

Interesting proposal. I am wondering, however: Wouldn't it be possible to simply make it part of staff and Curial disciplinary bodies' duties to co-operate more regularly regarding specifically citizen conduct? I mean that if moderators see a citizen misbehaving yet without breaking the ToS, they could simply make it a habit to forward the relevant post(s) to the CdeC/Triumvirate for the latter to examine, right? As all moderators are also citizens, they're basically 'prefects' already, no? And this would preclude the need for Curial représentants en mission prefects and the creation of another badge and rank.

[mishkin]

^This sounds much better IMHO (The simpler the better)

[Aikanár]

Interesting proposal. I am wondering, however: Wouldn't it be possible to simply make it part of staff and Curial disciplinary bodies' duties to co-operate more regularly regarding specifically citizen conduct? I mean that if moderators see a citizen misbehaving yet without breaking the ToS, they could simply make it a habit to forward the relevant post(s) to the CdeC/Triumvirate for the latter to examine, right? As all moderators are also citizens, they're basically 'prefects' already, no? And this would preclude the need for Curial représentants en mission prefects and the creation of another badge and rank.

Actually that is what every citizen should do or at least that appears to me to be the spirit behind citizen referrals: do you see a citizen misbehaving? Refer him. I think most of the times most of us just don't bother with that.

[PikeStance]

Interesting proposal. I am wondering, however: Wouldn't it be possible to simply make it part of staff and Curial disciplinary bodies' duties to co-operate more regularly regarding specifically citizen conduct? I mean that if moderators see a citizen misbehaving yet without breaking the ToS, they could simply make it a habit to forward the relevant post(s) to the CdeC/Triumvirate for the latter to examine, right? As all moderators are also citizens, they're basically 'prefects' already, no? And this would preclude the need for Curial représentants en mission prefects and the creation of another badge and rank.

No they are not Prefects!
Moderators have a difficult job already ensuring that all members are adhering to the TOS. In some cases it isn't always clear. This is why the tribunal exist. To ask them to take on an added responsibility over something that would be a little harder to define is asking a lot of them. Darth Red or BagDimeHo have not weight in on this, but I would be surprise if they thought otherwise.
A second issue is it would be better to separate the two because then they can be specifically trained to deal with the uniqueness of the enforcement. To ask Moderators to do it would mean they would all have to be trained and any future moderator as well. It would be more efficient to have the two separate.

Badges
It is possible the CdeC will be abolished- one badge. I also suggested removing Civitates (not the distinction) and Artifex (again not the distinction) badges as well. In a perfect world.... it would be a net loss or zero sum is one or both are accomplished.

Actually that is what every citizen should do or at least that appears to me to be the spirit behind citizen referrals: do you see a citizen misbehaving? Refer him. I think most of the times most of us just don't bother with that.

This is the spirit. I did find it interesting that in the code conduct reference in the Curia Commentary Thread, reporting other citizen's misbehavior was not one of them. Unfortunately, the system appears to have been abused.... so we are told.

[Aikanár]

Regarding the abuse, hm, I don't know. I've been absent for a year. I think referrals in general are a good thing. It's just the people that don't refer often enough or exploit them for purposes they have not been created for. Every system can be exploited and worked, but we had safeguards for that. Frivolous use of referrals can and should result in the accuser being referred either by the CdeC or the Curator.

I know that I once misunderstood something, a joke, seriously wrong and referred the citizen whos joke I mistook for an insult. I was a councillor back then and when my peers explained to me, that it was a common joke, I withdrew the referral. It could've been made public, but the referred had chosen not to do so. Maybe it will be public some day. It was a pretty good example for somebody (me) misunderstanding somebody else and then referring him, for not making the referral anonymous in the CdeC (I said that I was the accuser), for receiving help from peers (cheers NJ, MD and Y) to reckognise what I misunderstoood and then for withdrawing it and first and foremost it was a pretty good example of not communicating in the first place. I behaved like a fool, well my temper got the better of me and I felt really insulted. (I don't tink this is liable to the non-disclosure clause, since the only thing being disclosed here is my stupid acting of that time^^)

But in general I think that more referrals, especially citizen referrals, should be made, when missconduct is discovered, it should be treated with and if it's only outcome would be, that it was proper behaviour of a citizen.

[John ''True Grit'' Wayne]

A pm IS a pm and should remain private.Welcome back Aikanar your absence filled me with a aching sorrow bro.

[PikeStance]

Regarding the abuse, hm, I don't know. I've been absent for a year. I think referrals in general are a good thing. It's just the people that don't refer often enough or exploit them for purposes they have not been created for. Every system can be exploited and worked, but we had safeguards for that. Frivolous use of referrals can and should result in the accuser being referred either by the CdeC or the Curator.

But in general I think that more referrals, especially citizen referrals, should be made, when missconduct is discovered, it should be treated with and if it's only outcome would be, that it was proper behaviour of a citizen.

1- I didn't exclude citizen referrals, just added an extra safeguard to resolve the issue sooner and quicker.
2- The abuse is obvious isn't something I personal know. I can only go by what I am reading from the preponderance of post on the matter.
3- Even in regards to TOS the site has moderators to find violators, but there is still a report mechanism for full members.

In any event, if this is an overkill, then it will simply disappear.... if however, the abuse continue, maybe this in whole or in part may be considered.