Drafting a Two-Tier Citizenship System

[mishkin]

Ok, Opifex was a really bad example. Why a great debater should be demoted if for whatever the reasons he is absent for a year? We assume that he has lost its faculties? It is a punishment for leaving us?

[lolIsuck]

Ok, Opifex was a really bad example. Why a great debater should be demoted if for whatever the reasons he is absent for a year? We assume that he has lost its faculties? It is a punishment for leaving us?

I think debaters can get the Phalera award, which is the same rank as the Opifex.

[mishkin]

Are you all kidding me or I should go for a coffee?
Thanks loli/Lestat, but nevermind.

[ElvenKind]

Do you even know the purpose of the proposal? Cause I have my doubts

Continue to raise doubts about your current position as an CDeC member, and, we'll start a new thread:

At any time, any Citizen of Total War
Center may initiate a Vote of No
Confidence in any member holding a
position elected by the Curia, or in
any individual who is responsible for
managing some part of the site. A
VoNC may only be initiated for
neglect of duty or abuse of authority.

[Lord William]

Is that meant to be a threat?

[ElvenKind]

Is that meant to be a threat?

I don't make threats, only posts and threads.

[Lord William]

hmmm, cause it sure looks like a threat

[Joseph Simonyi de Vitézvár]

Can't we all just get along ?

[Sir Adrian]

Wolves and statues are natural enemies

[Joseph Simonyi de Vitézvár]

I will send my Smurf diplomats on it.

[ElvenKind]

hmmm, cause it sure looks like a threat

Some of your posts regarding "plebs" , show that you do not understand your duty as a CDeC member, and how a CDeC member should behave/post when it comes to these kind of important things.

If you consider all these proposals/amendments/potential changes on this site as a joke, and make silly posts like you did ( the latest in CDeC Election Debate thread, where you would throw away your citizenship cause you won't be able to wear a CDeC badge if Squid's proposal passes) then, VoNC is a suitable measure.

[Lord William]

Some of your posts regarding "plebs" , show that you do not understand your duty as a CDeC member, and how a CDeC member should behave/post when it comes to these kind of important things.

If you consider all these proposals/amendments/potential changes on this site as a joke, and make silly posts like you did ( the latest in CDeC Election Debate thread, where you would throw away your citizenship cause you won't be able to wear a CDeC badge if Squid's proposal passes) then, VoNC is a suitable measure.

I don't have to explain myself or my views, if you think you have a case to VoNC me than by all means go ahead but don't just stand there and make idle threats.

[ElvenKind]

I don't have to explain myself or my views, if you think you have a case to VoNC me than by all means go ahead but don't just stand there and make idle threats.

People usually shoot themselves in the foot.

[Diamat]

Too low and no difference from lower class citizen.

Must be 1 year a plebian with good standing (no referral. no infraction). 50 posts ? Make it 500. A Patrician who is not active within 12 months will be downgraded back to Plebian.

Patricians' standards will be exactly the same as they are now for citizens, meaning that they are pretty high. So nothing was changed there.

Also, I think one should not have to become a Pleb in order to become a Patrician. Some people should be able to apply to Patrician directly. Some people simply wouldn't be interested in becoming a Pleb. What do you think?

And the current citizens...I'm assuming they would automatically be in the first tier? (Patricians)

Yes, all current citizens will automatically become Patricians. Basically, all we are changing about the current Constitution is the creation of a new, enfranchised, lower citizenship rank. Everything else will stay the same.

[Armenum]

Yes, all current citizens will automatically become Patricians. Basically, all we are changing about the current Constitution is the creation of a new, enfranchised, lower citizenship rank. Everything else will stay the same.

I see. Would you be willing though to change the names to something like Senators and Citizens? I feel like people may get a bit confused with 'Patricians' and 'Plebeians'.

[pacifism]

Also, I think one should not have to become a Pleb in order to become a Patrician. Some people should be able to apply to Patrician directly. Some people simply wouldn't be interested in becoming a Pleb. What do you think?

I think it should be possible to go straight from non-citizen to patrician, it would probably be as easy as it would be in ancient Rome. But in my mind, serving as an active, voting plebeian(/whatever-we-think-of) for a decent length would be a good qualification for applying to become a patrician.

In fact, this whole plebeian(/whatever-we-think-of) thing could result in it being easier to become a patrician if one is determined. Things like voting in Curial elections and decisions, as well as becoming a Moderator, seem to be great ways for a new plebeian to choose how he wishes to further contribute to the site, ultimately to be able to reach patrician easier. I suppose that after the now-patrician member would be able to contribute to the site even further by become a Magistrate, Curator, or Consilium de Civitate member.

Yes, all current citizens will automatically become Patricians. Basically, all we are changing about the current Constitution is the creation of a new, enfranchised, lower citizenship rank. Everything else will stay the same.

How do you think we would we change the two-tiered citizenship if the Consilium de Civitates are disbanded? I am not sure how successful attempting to reinstate the CdeC would be along with a new citizen rank. I suppose, then, that Citizens as a whole would vote for both patricians and plebeians(/whatever-we-think-of). What do you think?


EDIT:

I see. Would you be willing though to change the names to something like Senators and Citizens? I feel like people may get a bit confused with 'Patricians' and 'Plebeians'.

People could also become confused that someone becoming a citizen means they achieved a much lesser rank than before.

[Diamat]

I see. Would you be willing though to change the names to something like Senators and Citizens? I feel like people may get a bit confused with 'Patricians' and 'Plebeians'.

The thing is: I think it's a good idea to keep the term "citizen" to refer to both groups, to give a sense of equality, even if their privileges are different. Senator is a good idea, but then what to call the lower ranks? I mean, senators are technically citizens too.

How do you think we would we change the two-tiered citizenship if the Consilium de Civitates are disbanded? I am not sure how successful attempting to reinstate the CdeC would be along with a new citizen rank. I suppose, then, that Citizens as a whole would vote for both patricians and plebeians(/whatever-we-think-of). What do you think?

If CdeC is disbanded, then both plebs and patricians would be elected by the citizenry, indeed. I mean, if CdeC is abolished, we'll be left with a pretty similar situation to now: it will still be pretty difficult for many a member to become citizen. Hence, the proposal would still be valid.

[AngryTitusPullo]

Ok, Opifex was a really bad example. Why a great debater should be demoted if for whatever the reasons he is absent for a year? We assume that he has lost its faculties? It is a punishment for leaving us?

He/she can be promoted back once he/she active. If he/she is in active I don't think he/she will care about what rank he/she is anyway. From my point of view it's just an incentive for people to be active and productive for the site.

Patricians' standards will be exactly the same as they are now for citizens, meaning that they are pretty high. So nothing was changed there.

Also, I think one should not have to become a Pleb in order to become a Patrician. Some people should be able to apply to Patrician directly. Some people simply wouldn't be interested in becoming a Pleb. What do you think?

For new members it should be Citizens first as we all do and if he/she proves to be contributing still to the site and not simply vanish after receiving the citizenship then after 12 months is passed he/she can be promoted to Patrician. Patrician should not be something that can be applied. Normal citizenship (Peb or Equestrian, whatever name choose) is one that can be applied as currently done.

Yes, all current citizens will automatically become Patricians. Basically, all we are changing about the current Constitution is the creation of a new, enfranchised, lower citizenship rank. Everything else will stay the same.

I don't agree. Only active citizens with good standings and continuously co0ntributing should be promoted to Patrician. I don't see it as new enfranchised (whatever it means) lower citizenship rank but creating or reintroducing a higher rank (Patrician) to existing citizens to them them for keeping active and contributing towards the site.

[PikeStance]

He/she can be promoted back once he/she active. If he/she is in active I don't think he/she will care about what rank he/she is anyway. From my point of view it's just an incentive for people to be active and productive for the site.

Except citizenship is given for contribution to this site. Why would I care to vote in elections that has no bearing on why I am here in the first place? Why should I vote for a magistrate? If all I do is modding the role of the magistrate is meaningless to me. Why should I vote in CdeC elections if it si the same recycled people running for those positions? Am I supposed to track down the performance and see if they are doing their jobs right? So fact that these things have no relevance to me, I lose my recognition for my contributions? Curial affairs should be something I voluntarily participate not force.

Some people need to realize that playing government isn;t why they are here. They are here to mod. TWC provides a great platform in which to create, discuss and share their mods. BTW, this just doesn;t pertain to modders either. There are plenty of Civitates who spend a great deal of time debating political issues of the day, but have "zero" interest in playing government. Why should they be forced to particpate and lose their badge of recognition.

Oh please do not say they are STILL citizens. It has been abundantly clear that the "higher" rank signifies a significant level of contribution. By reducing the rank, you are essentially erasing that recognition.

[Armenum]

The thing is: I think it's a good idea to keep the term "citizen" to refer to both groups, to give a sense of equality, even if their privileges are different. Senator is a good idea, but then what to call the lower ranks? I mean, senators are technically citizens too.

I'd say something like this:

Non-Citizens:
1) Member
--------------------------
Citizens:
2) Diplomat, Representative, Legislator, or Delegate
3) Senator - Artifex, Civitate, Both, Other Senior Positions

So, the question is the naming for number 2. As you can see, I put some suggestions: Diplomat, Representative, Legislator, or Delegate

So level 2 is what you refer to as Plebeians.