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Thread: [PREVIEW] - Carthage (With Generals)

  1. #1
    Meneros's Avatar Artifex
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    Icon3 [PREVIEW] - Carthage (With Generals)


    Faction Preview: Carthage







    Overview
    Ancient Carthage was a Semitic civilization centered on the Phoenician city-state of Carthage, located in North Africa on the Gulf of Tunis, outside what is now Tunis, Tunisia. It was founded in 814 BC. Originally a dependency of the Phoenician state of Tyre, Carthage gained independence around 650 BC and established a hegemony over other Phoenician settlements throughout the Mediterranean, North Africa and what is now Spain which lasted until the end of the 3rd century BC. At the height of the city's prominence, it was a major hub of trade with political influence extending over most of the western Mediterranean.

    For much of its history, Carthage was in a constant state of struggle with the Greeks on Sicily and the Roman Republic, which led to a series of armed conflicts known as the Greek-Punic Wars and Punic Wars. The city also had to deal with the potentially hostile Berbers, the indigenous inhabitants of the entire area where Carthage was built. In 146 BC, after the third and final Punic War, Carthage was destroyed and then occupied by Roman forces. Nearly all of the other Phoenician city-states and former Carthaginian dependencies fell into Roman hands from then on.

    At the onset of the year 272 BC the Carthaginian Empire stands at its height, having rulership over most of the western mediterranean. Carthage is wealthy and powerful, with the means of raising capable soldiers such as Iberians and Libyans for her mercenary armies, and its navy is beyond approach. Rome is still to realize its true potential, and in comparison looks poor and uncultured to the Carthaginian ruling elite. Indeed, it looks as though nothing can threaten its supremacy of the west. The empire which the city of Carthage rules over is vast and stretches over large patches of lands and peoples. This diversity is both a strength and a weakness, in that it can be vulnerable to resurrection, which Rome certain would not be slow to take advantage of. In the hands of a ruler capable enough to keep the diverse and geographically spread out empire united, Carthage may indeed come to rule Italy and beyond.

    This faction revamp will be released in 0.8.

    New Generals
    Included in this faction revamp is a complete overhaul of all 20 carthaginian generals, all of them are contained in the pictures below:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 










    Units
    This faction overhaul is a complete revamp of Carthage, adding 11 new units in total and visually overhauling all units. Please note that this preview contains only core Carthaginian units (apart from some Numidian units) and not their common mercenary units such as Iberians, Celts and so on. The reason for this is that with the AOR system in 0.9 these units will not be tied to the Carthaginian roster, but rather be avaliable to any faction that owns the correct regions. Here are pictures of some of the new and overhauled units:

    Melee Infantry


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Libyan Infantry


    Late Libyan Infantry


    Carthaginian Marines


    Liby-Phoenician Infantry


    Elite Liby-Phoenician Infantry


    Iberian Assault Infantry


    Spear Infantry


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Libyan Thureos Spears


    Libyan Hoplites


    Late Libyan Spearmen


    Liby-Phoenician Hoplites


    Late Liby-Phoenician Spearmen


    Sacred Band Hoplites


    Pike Infantry


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Libyan Pikemen


    Late Libyan Pikemen


    Liby-Phoenician Pikemen


    Missile Infantry


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Numidian Slingers


    Libyan Peltasts


    Cavalry


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Numidian Cavalry


    Libyan Cavalry


    Liby-Phoenician Cavalry


    Numidian Nobles


    Carthaginian Noble Cavalry


    General's Bodyguard


    Sacred Band Cavalry


    Elephants


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    African War Elephants
    Last edited by Meneros; February 23, 2014 at 05:43 PM.

  2. #2
    KAM 2150's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: [PREVIEW] - Carthage (With Generals)

    Love it
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  3. #3

    Default Re: [PREVIEW] - Carthage (With Generals)

    Great preview.

  4. #4

    Default Re: [PREVIEW] - Carthage (With Generals)

    They look brilliant!

    A lot of citizen troops it seems. Any plans to reflect Carthages reliance on mercs?


  5. #5

    Default Re: [PREVIEW] - Carthage (With Generals)

    Awesome work guys!

    @ student23

    This faction overhaul is a complete revamp of Carthage, adding 11 new units in total and visually overhauling all units. Please note that this preview contains only core Carthaginian units (apart from some Numidian units) and not their common mercenary units such as Iberians, Celts and so on. The reason for this is that with the AOR system in 0.9 these units will not be tied to the Carthaginian roster, but rather be avaliable to any faction that owns the correct regions. Here are pictures of some of the new and overhauled units:
    Last edited by Falco; February 23, 2014 at 07:08 PM.

  6. #6

    Default Re: [PREVIEW] - Carthage (With Generals)

    Crazy i love it

  7. #7

    Default Re: [PREVIEW] - Carthage (With Generals)

    Great !!!
    Question about elephants-can still add Headband armor?

  8. #8

    Default Re: [PREVIEW] - Carthage (With Generals)

    Amazing!!!!!! can't wait to play with the numidian slingers! : D

  9. #9

    Default Re: [PREVIEW] - Carthage (With Generals)

    Make them more unique, brighter too

  10. #10
    Bucle_CT's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: [PREVIEW] - Carthage (With Generals)

    Mindblowing! This was the one I was waiting for.

    Just a little suggestion, I hope you put a b8t 9f work in the scutum decals for libypoeny infantry. If you need resources I have my own textures and I'd be pleased to share with you

    Enviado desde mi SM-N9005 mediante Tapatalk

  11. #11
    Wittman's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: [PREVIEW] - Carthage (With Generals)

    Hmm i dont know,the carthaginian army roster is excellent as it is now,these new units although really looking great seem weaker than those that carthage has now.
    Please check your PM folder-Garb.

  12. #12

    Default Re: [PREVIEW] - Carthage (With Generals)

    @Willman you can guess their stats by just looking at them?

    The preview looks really great, I especially like that some of those units are inspired by EB. Just out of curiosity how many reforms will there be for Carthage? The romanization is obviously going to be a reform, but iirc in EB you had to go through reforms to get the iberian assault infantry.
    Maybe Carthage should get a few more iberian units, than just the aor-units (since the iberians provided such a big part of their armies)

  13. #13
    Meneros's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: [PREVIEW] - Carthage (With Generals)

    Quote Originally Posted by Master.Mind View Post
    @Willman you can guess their stats by just looking at them?

    The preview looks really great, I especially like that some of those units are inspired by EB. Just out of curiosity how many reforms will there be for Carthage? The romanization is obviously going to be a reform, but iirc in EB you had to go through reforms to get the iberian assault infantry.
    Maybe Carthage should get a few more iberian units, than just the aor-units (since the iberians provided such a big part of their armies)
    The reason why we are keeping the iberians (aside from the iberian assault infantry) as AOR units only is to make it so that Carthage becomes dependant upon having regions in Iberia in order to field iberian units. In truth, we will do this for all factions in 0.9, in that their actual rosters will only be comprised of native, core units while all regional units will be moved out into the AOR bracket and be recruitable by any faction that owns the correct regions.

  14. #14

    Default Re: [PREVIEW] - Carthage (With Generals)

    Shiny!! thank you this is awesome.

  15. #15

    Default Re: [PREVIEW] - Carthage (With Generals)

    Very, very nice! Now only Eastern Kingdoms and Steppe Tribes to go. So exited!




  16. #16

    Default Re: [PREVIEW] - Carthage (With Generals)

    they are looking good! Maybe it's a visual effect, but the units look much more dirty than the units of other factions (also barbs like the celts). Also some shields could need beautiful emblems.

    Balearic Slingers also could be in the Carthagian roster. They were hired as mercs in the whole area by fleets dropping by. 1-2 more Hoplite and distance units would be nice, too.

  17. #17
    Meneros's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: [PREVIEW] - Carthage (With Generals)

    Quote Originally Posted by Igor85 View Post
    they are looking good! Maybe it's a visual effect, but the units look much more dirty than the units of other factions (also barbs like the celts). Also some shields could need beautiful emblems.

    Balearic Slingers also could be in the Carthagian roster. They were hired as mercs in the whole area by fleets dropping by. 1-2 more Hoplite and distance units would be nice, too.
    All regional units such as these will not belong to any one roster, but will be avaliable to any faction that controls, in this case, the Balearic Isles.

  18. #18

    Default Re: [PREVIEW] - Carthage (With Generals)

    Hi.

    Very nice preview, i love the generals and the new roster is fine. The AOR will fit nicely for Carthage.
    Are you going to include others numidians units in the AOR ?

    I have a few questions though.

    I know that both EB and Rome 2 vanilla include pikemen for Carthage and i understand pikemen can be needed for gameplay reasons, but it's a rather controversial point.

    The only evidences (afaik) toward Carthage ever using pikemen are that Polybius inlcude Carthage when he makes his famous comparison between the roman system and the phalanx and some graved figures using longspears that may be pikes, or not and that may be a naval weapons (naval warfare was notorious for the use of such kind of weapons), or not...

    Given that Polybius never ever speak of carthaginians armed in the "macedonian fashion" as he usually does when speaking about pikemen (something he does everytime he has to in other parts of his history) and that at no point during his descriptions of the battles it looks like the carthaginian have pike armed troops (rather the fact that the african are reequiped with roman equipment (could be just the armors though, but the mentions that they could be mistaken for roman troops would look strange if they had pikes too) would point toward the fact they where certainly either already javelin and sword or thureos style troops (ie, javelins, spear and sword).

    Another commonly held view is that it's Xanthippus that trained the carthaginians as a macedonian style phalanx on the basis that he was a professional hellenistic mercenary that latter served the lagids and that he "reformed" the army.

    However it's a lot of extrapolation. Polybius just says a few things in regard of what Xanthippus brought to the carthaginian. First, that the carthaginian didn't make a good use of their good and numerous horsemen and elephants because they chose rugged terrain rather than a plain (wich can be explained by their fear of the roman heavy infantry and their guerilla and raiding habits regarding warfare in Africa and in Sicily until then). So for some it MUST means that he introduced Carthage with the combined arms system of the macedonian, it's implied indeed, but nothing says that they needed pikemen for such system to be efficient. He just made good use of what they had.
    Secondly that the carthaginian troops were badly drilled and led, unable to march and fight in an efficient formation. THIS, is the reform he made imo. He drilled them and probably trained them to move and fight in sub-units rather than as a large and unwieldy phalanx.

    Then, the fact that he was a hellenistic mercenary proves nothing regarding the use of pikes (especially as no point is made toward the use of the macedonian panoply), most mercenaries at the time were used as light troops, thureophoroï.

    Then about the "liby-phoenician" roster. I am always uncomfortable with "liby-phoenician" units. For once, there are no references to them serving as infantry, only cavalry is ever mentionned (either as a rather heavy cavalry with spears or possibly of a heavy javelin throwing type (if a figurine of a bare headed cavalrymen with a cuirass and javalin do represent those kind of troops)).

    Then it's about who they were. Livy describes them as of mixed race (like the name implies). However it's not so clear. Are they phoenicians who don't have the carthaginian citizenships (From Utica, Hippo acra and other smaller settlements) ? That's possible but doubtfull since (afaik) they are mentionned mostly in a rural context (they could be non-carthaginian phoenician living in carthaginian territory though, as settlers in rural colonies, or even carthaginian settlers and their descendants (mixed or not)).
    Could they be punicised libyans or libyans able to achieve a kind of secondary citizenship ? All of those at the same time ?

    In any case, they would appear, both from those considerations regarding who they might be and from the fact they only are known as horsemen in the sources, as a kind of elite (rural landowners in the carthaginian held territories of Libya, probably the people upon who Carthage relied to hold and control those places).
    So, i am bit unsure of having such a large roster for them rather than having carthaginian citzens units, who are attested by our sources far more often even if mostly in case of emergency.

    The carthaginian military system seems to have relied on professional soldiers* because of their wealth and more importantly of how their wars in sicily (and even in Africa) where long, drawn out affairs. Guerilla, sieges and raids mostly. Citizens levy would have to be raised yearly, that would be both impractical and unpopular (unlike the roman domination of italy that was made possible because of constant yearly warfare) as there was constant low scale warfare and few large operations. The carthaginian also lacked the will to fight yearly to annex sicilian territory. At most they would use a successfull campaign to extend their domain, but they weren't really bent on conquest.
    So, those proffessionals needed for this kind of long low intensity but exhausting kind of warfare came from everywhere possible, ligurians, sardinians, campanians, greeks (although relatively few), iberian, celts, they had the advantage of being already trained warriors.

    Carthage also recruited professionals among the libyans and conscripted others (probably each towns or rural area had to fulfill a number of men based on census) when in need of men. Those are probably the backbone of the "african" of livy.

    The carthaginian themselves most probably manned the fleet (Lazenby think they relied on their phoenician allies and coastal libyan towns, it's highly possible they were required to serve in the fleet, but i don't know why he thinks the citizens avoided any kind of service including at sea, most evidences would point toward using the poorest citizens as sailors and rowers), wich would be in any case a huge manpower drain and they raised troops from time to time. Most often in emergency but they are record of carthaginian citizens troops in Sicily (apart from the sacred band).
    Earlier in sicily they fought in a hoplite phalanx style, it's almost sure, however their equipment during the punic wars is less clear. Phalanx is a rather broad term, basically in the mouth of Polybius it just mean a dense formation.
    But the equipment itself could be anything... Thueros shield or aspis, armor, or no armor according to wealth (although the carthaginian state had large reserves of weapons and armor judging by their ability to raise new armies in emergency and by the third punic war), the spears could have been "longche" (ligther spears, usable for throwing and hand to hand) rather than dorys.



    Well that post was way longer than i initially thought, it's by no way intended to be a criticism of your roster or units (that i like, as i said earlier), just a discussion about the Carthaginian army and some thoughts about it.



    Lastly, the pointed carthaginian helmet (called carthaginian pylos in the game files) is attested by both the sources and the archeology afaik, but i would think (just my opinion there) that it would look better if some came with cheekpieces like most other helmets. I don't know if it's possible though.

    Edit

    *An interesting point is that Carthaginian generals were "professionals" like their soldiers too, in a kind of way, not literrally (they came from an aristocratic background with or without a military education like everywhere else) but because they held their function for years rather than being elected yearly like roman consuls or some greeks strategos offices.
    Last edited by Keyser; February 24, 2014 at 05:43 AM.

  19. #19
    Meneros's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: [PREVIEW] - Carthage (With Generals)

    Good idea about the helmets, I will look into this. Regarding the pikemen, these are very much what-if units intended to give the player the option of fielding these if wanted. I also think it bears saying that DeI has no ambition of being more historically accurate than EB or RS, so we do not always try to get it right down to primary sources.

  20. #20

    Default Re: [PREVIEW] - Carthage (With Generals)

    Well i perfectly understand gameplay reasons and i am not against what-if after all.
    We clearly need them for some faction, so as they don't stay the same for the whole game.

    I intended my post as just a praise for your preview, but i have a bit of carthaginian fetish since i rediscovered them when i played GMT's "SPQR" wargame (it gave Carthage a pike phalanx by the way...) and more recently i've read 6 books about the subject in the last few months (AND Polybius...), so in the end i just started a rant...

    About the AOR and mercenaries, the carthaginian were able to ship mercenaries recruited by agents to Africa on several occasions. Will you represent that by having to send a general overseas to raise the troops either via the AOR or mercenaries, or would it be possible to have a line of buildings that allow the recruitment of foreign mercenaries ? In Carthage proper for exemple so as to not exploit it too much and make the whole AOR pointless.
    Not that it's really needed, just an idea.

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