Discussion on infringment of rights of Christians in Turkey

[Dromikaites]

This is where lack of knowledge kicks in in your post again in this thread. People don't vote AKP because they look anti-EU. It's the exact opposite. If you can't get that right, I don't know what you can get right.

Let me see if I got you right: you say the same people who enjoy "Fetih 1453" and "Valley of the Wolves: Iraq" are those who love AKP's pro-EU orientation?

What a delusional argument you have there though. Being in EU doesn't make Turkish companies not compete with other European companies.

What a lack of understanding the basics of competition.

Of course the Turkish companies would compete with every other EU companies both on the common market and outside the EU. However they would have access to the same benefits as their EU competitors. Today they don't! Today they must pay for R&D or training their workers or buying new equipment, while say an Estonian company will pay for such needs with EU funds.

Many Turkish companies do very well with their exports to EU countries anyway.

Yes they do. However most of that exports are low value-added products: clothing 17.6%, automobile parts 17%, other machinery parts 13.3%, chemical semi-manufactured 8.5%, electrical machinery & parts 8.2%, textiles 7.4% - these are the largest categories for 2012.

You keep making statements as if you have definitive statements from Turkish companies but it's likely that you're just pulling claims out of your ass.

Or I might know a thing or two because it's my job to know. Look up the detailed EU or Turkish statistics and see if I was wrong with the figures above.

But I repeat being a EU country doesn't provide you any flexibility with trade. Otherwise, we'd see all EU countries being great at trade. EU is not made up of France and Germany after all.

Think again.

For instance Turkey had a trade deficit of about 800 million USD with Romania in 2012 (it oscillated between about 1 billion to 700 million since 2007 when Romania joined the EU). Even when it comes to steel, a low value-added item, Romania exports twice as much to Turkey than what Turkey exports to Romania. And as you aptly said, Romania is not Germany.

Why does that happen even for relatively low-added-value products? Because some costs the Romanian companies have are covered by the EU financing.

By the way, EU projects mostly don't have much to do with trade. Building roads or structures does not count for trade.

It has to do with money the Turkish companies like Enka, Gama or Tekfen can't access in spite of being among the largest construction companies in the World. Thus they would push hard whoever is in the government to speed up Turkey's ascension to the EU.

Why would I feel humiliated for Turkey to be a EU member?

Because membership would happen after the Armenian and Kurdish dossiers are closed to EU's satisfaction, the border with Greece is settled to Greece's satisfaction (tough luck, they are in the EU so their opinion on the matter weights more) and the Turkish army is out of Northern Cyprus, among other things.

[PointOfViewGun]

Let me see if I got you right: you say the same people who enjoy "Fetih 1453" and "Valley of the Wolves: Iraq" are those who love AKP's pro-EU orientation?

Those people would vote for AKP and AKP is not openly against EU but openly for it. Sort of destroys your generalization.

What a lack of understanding the basics of competition.

Of course the Turkish companies would compete with every other EU companies both on the common market and outside the EU. However they would have access to the same benefits as their EU competitors. Today they don't! Today they must pay for R&D or training their workers or buying new equipment, while say an Estonian company will pay for such needs with EU funds.

Wait, you believe that in EU all the R&D, equipment and training expenditures of any company is paid by the government? I was right calling this argument delusional before, I'm right about it now as well...

Moreover, government subsidies are not really part of basics of competition. If you're gonna throw an attack make sure it doesn't sound utterly stupid.

Apparently, Turkey spends more on R&D in percentage of its GDP than 10 EU countries in 2010. Turkey is not just spending more than some EU countries but it's expenditure is rapidly increasing while it's GDP is growing as well. Looks like Turkey is fine without EU in this sector...

Yes they do. However most of that exports are low value-added products: clothing 17.6%, automobile parts 17%, other machinery parts 13.3%, chemical semi-manufactured 8.5%, electrical machinery & parts 8.2%, textiles 7.4% - these are the largest categories for 2012.

White goods companies like Beko have a sizable portion of the EU market. Turkish companies are not selling laptops in EU that much not because of a lack of membership. Turkey being in EU won't change that in the foreseeable future.

Or I might know a thing or two because it's my job to know. Look up the detailed EU or Turkish statistics and see if I was wrong with the figures above.

It's not the irrelevant numbers that you make dubious claims about. Your claims about owners of major Turkish companies not being happy is just something you're making up. Which doesn't surprise me at all. You've been jumping from one stupid point to an other stupid point for the entirety of this thread. Remember, we're talking about EU and Turkey in this thread because you're unable to come up with an argument about rights of Christians infringed upon in Turkey and stand by it.

Think again.

For instance Turkey had a trade deficit of about 800 million USD with Romania in 2012 (it oscillated between about 1 billion to 700 million since 2007 when Romania joined the EU). Even when it comes to steel, a low value-added item, Romania exports twice as much to Turkey than what Turkey exports to Romania. And as you aptly said, Romania is not Germany.

Why does that happen even for relatively low-added-value products? Because some costs the Romanian companies have are covered by the EU financing.

And your argument is that Romania exports more to Turkey because it's in EU? You're not even addressing the issue. Come on. Making general points like that may push the discussion but it fails to add any value. Address the issue of flexibility.

Turkey has trade surpluses with Malta, United Kingdom, Slovenia, Denmark and Lithuania. If EU membership is a game changer there shouldn't be any country in EU with a trade deficit with Turkey. By the way, Turkey had a trade deficit with Romania before Romania's inclusion to EU as well with the exception of 2 years.

It has to do with money the Turkish companies like Enka, Gama or Tekfen can't access in spite of being among the largest construction companies in the World. Thus they would push hard whoever is in the government to speed up Turkey's ascension to the EU.

It still doesn't have anything to do with trade. Construction means little to Turkish companies within context of EU anyways. Russian, Caucasian, Middle East and North African markets are where the projects are.

Because membership would happen after the Armenian and Kurdish dossiers are closed to EU's satisfaction, the border with Greece is settled to Greece's satisfaction (tough luck, they are in the EU so their opinion on the matter weights more) and the Turkish army is out of Northern Cyprus, among other things.

Regardless of my position on any of those matters, why would them being resolved in favor of others humiliate me?

[Tureuki]

Its just a stupid movie for god's sake, every country has some history ignorant, patriotic people, what is the deal with it ? what will they do ? besiege Athens ? send raiding parties to Balkans ? they will not do anything, and people who get offended from such a movie is same with them.

[Dromikaites]

Those people would vote for AKP and AKP is not openly against EU but openly for it. Sort of destroys your generalization.

Those people vote for AKP then AKP has to address the Armenian Genocide, the border dispute with Greece, the withdrawal of the Turkish army from Norther Cyprus, etc in ways which are perceived as "humiliating" by those people. Hence the problem.

That those people do not understand that being openly pro-EU means "humiliation" by their standards is normal, since those people are...special. Had they lived in the US they would have made most of Jerry Springer's audience.
[QUOTE=Setekh;13676089]
Wait, you believe that in EU all the R&D, equipment and training expenditures of any company is paid by the government? I was right calling this argument delusional before, I'm right about it now as well...[quote]
It not a matter of beliefs, it is a matter of fact that a lot of expenses in those fields are covered by various EU programs.

The EU is even very clever in how it approaches the issue, so that it doesn't trigger retaliation measures from other strong economies like the American one.

Here is how it works: at first glance only the small and medium size enterprises (SMEs) are benefiting from those funds. But where would those companies buy their equipment from? Given the "made in the EU" restriction, the money paid to a SME ends up in the pockets of one of those big EU corporations. So those money leave the EU treasury as "SMEs funding" but actually represent "big EU corporations funding".

Those big European corporations then compete with everybody else, everywhere else in the world, using the funds they have funneled from the EU budget via their SME clients.

Moreover, government subsidies are not really part of basics of competition. If you're gonna throw an attack make sure it doesn't sound utterly stupid.

Right! Because according to you, having the government covering some of the costs doesn't impact the competitiveness in the marketplace.

Apparently, Turkey spends more on R&D in percentage of its GDP than 10 EU countries in 2010. Turkey is not just spending more than some EU countries but it's expenditure is rapidly increasing while it's GDP is growing as well. Looks like Turkey is fine without EU in this sector...

Do keep such ideas for yourself if you apply for a job with any of the major Turkish companies. The bosses there would like to pocket some of that EU funding. That's why you won't find any major Turkish political party working against the EU ascension.

Turkey being in EU won't change that in the foreseeable future.

You may say whatever you want during a job interview, but I would strongly advise you to avoid expressing such views.

Your claims about owners of major Turkish companies not being happy is just something you're making up.

Are there any major parties anti-EU? Because that would indicate big money being bet against the EU.

You've been jumping from one stupid point to an other stupid point for the entirety of this thread. Remember, we're talking about EU and Turkey in this thread because you're unable to come up with an argument about rights of Christians infringed upon in Turkey and stand by it.

Christians having trouble getting their churches back is one of those signs.

Even the Cathedral of the Holy Cross in Akdamar is officially a museum (just like St. Sophia in Istanbul) not a cathedral, with religious service being performed occasionally, not permanently. Allowing religious service from time to time is still a progress from allowing no service (like it is the case now with St. Sophia), but Turkey is not yet where the EU wants.

And your argument is that Romania exports more to Turkey because it's in EU?

My argument is the EU ascension had a visible positive impact on the economies of countries less developed than Germany of France.

If EU membership is a game changer there shouldn't be any country in EU with a trade deficit with Turkey.

Nope.

If two economies are complementary, then the trade balance might show little or no deficit either way. In addition to that, products from EU country X might compete with Turkish products in say Nigeria, in which case the advantage those EU products have over the Turkish ones do not show in either Turkish nor EU statistics but in the Nigerian ones.

It still doesn't have anything to do with trade. Construction means little to Turkish companies within context of EU anyways. Russian, Caucasian, Middle East and North African markets are where the projects are.

You are entitled to your opinion but better not voice it if you apply for a job with say Tekfen (which had some infrastructure projects in Romania prior to 2007).

Regardless of my position on any of those matters, why would them being resolved in favor of others humiliate me?

Because you put a lot of energy in lost causes like denying the Armenian Genocide. You either love lost causes or you get a lot of satisfaction out of "defending Turkish honor" on such dishonorable issues.

Its just a stupid movie for god's sake, every country has some history ignorant, patriotic people, what is the deal with it ? what will they do ? besiege Athens ? send raiding parties to Balkans ? they will not do anything, and people who get offended from such a movie is same with them.

The whole issue was that 4 - 6.4 million people are a lot, and as such have the ability to slow down processes relevant to the topic at hand, like returning former churches to their initial destination instead of making them "museums".

[Tureuki]

Why would they return them to churches ? for what reason ? to satisfy equally lunatic nationalists ? its not like Turkish Christians are in lack of church.

[Dromikaites]

Why would they return them to churches ? for what reason ? to satisfy equally lunatic nationalists ? its not like Turkish Christians are in lack of church.

Because the issue here is the respect for those religious communities (Armenians, Orthodox) which includes returning those buildings back to them. There is an additional benefit of doing so - some people might violently oppose that move, giving the authorities the perfect opportunity to put them behind bars. Removing the most radical elements would make it easier to implement other sensitive reforms later.

[Tureuki]

Hagia Sophia has been a mosque for over 500 years, and you think returning a building which has been a mosque for over 500 years and has been one of the most significiant symbols of the Muslim community to a Christian community of few thousands is a good idea ?

The term "returning" is stupid in the first place, its not like we have taken land register from Christians few years ago, if this building has a Christian history, its also has a Muslim history, there is nothing unexpected about getting a negative reaction from Muslim community.

If Turkey wants to show respect to Christian minority, there are better , less provoking and more functioning ways, for example opening this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halki_seminary

Simple majority actually don't care much about its being open or closed, it would enrage some ineffectual beardies and nationalist at best, its riduculous to keep it closed.

[PointOfViewGun]

Those people vote for AKP then AKP has to address the Armenian Genocide, the border dispute with Greece, the withdrawal of the Turkish army from Norther Cyprus, etc in ways which are perceived as "humiliating" by those people. Hence the problem.
That those people do not understand that being openly pro-EU means "humiliation" by their standards is normal, since those people are...special. Had they lived in the US they would have made most of Jerry Springer's audience.
It not a matter of beliefs, it is a matter of fact that a lot of expenses in those fields are covered by various EU programs.
The EU is even very clever in how it approaches the issue, so that it doesn't trigger retaliation measures from other strong economies like the American one.
Here is how it works: at first glance only the small and medium size enterprises (SMEs) are benefiting from those funds. But where would those companies buy their equipment from? Given the "made in the EU" restriction, the money paid to a SME ends up in the pockets of one of those big EU corporations. So those money leave the EU treasury as "SMEs funding" but actually represent "big EU corporations funding".
Those big European corporations then compete with everybody else, everywhere else in the world, using the funds they have funneled from the EU budget via their SME clients.
Right! Because according to you, having the government covering some of the costs doesn't impact the competitiveness in the marketplace.
Do keep such ideas for yourself if you apply for a job with any of the major Turkish companies. The bosses there would like to pocket some of that EU funding. That's why you won't find any major Turkish political party working against the EU ascension.
You may say whatever you want during a job interview, but I would strongly advise you to avoid expressing such views.
Are there any major parties anti-EU? Because that would indicate big money being bet against the EU.
Christians having trouble getting their churches back is one of those signs.
Even the Cathedral of the Holy Cross in Akdamar is officially a museum (just like St. Sophia in Istanbul) not a cathedral, with religious service being performed occasionally, not permanently. Allowing religious service from time to time is still a progress from allowing no service (like it is the case now with St. Sophia), but Turkey is not yet where the EU wants.
My argument is the EU ascension had a visible positive impact on the economies of countries less developed than Germany of France.
Nope.
If two economies are complementary, then the trade balance might show little or no deficit either way. In addition to that, products from EU country X might compete with Turkish products in say Nigeria, in which case the advantage those EU products have over the Turkish ones do not show in either Turkish nor EU statistics but in the Nigerian ones.
You are entitled to your opinion but better not voice it if you apply for a job with say Tekfen (which had some infrastructure projects in Romania prior to 2007).
Because you put a lot of energy in lost causes like denying the Armenian Genocide. You either love lost causes or you get a lot of satisfaction out of "defending Turkish honor" on such dishonorable issues.

Oh boy, looks like you're utilizing the same failed tactics you've used all thread long. I could literally repost what I said before to answer this post. So I will stop entertaining such delusional and trolling posts of yours. No wonder you've been basing your posts on ignorance whenever you could. You ignored Pearl Harbor, the fact that Turkey had a trade deficit before Romania entered EU, and many more points that you simply can't face without admitting that you were dead wrong.

I'll give you one last chance to post something decent though; tell me where does the Christians get their right to turn Haghia Sophia into a church.

[Dromikaites]

Hagia Sophia has been a mosque for over 500 years, and you think returning a building which has been a mosque for over 500 years and has been one of the most significiant symbols of the Muslim community to a Christian community of few thousands is a good idea ?

On the same note, do you think that transforming it into a mosque after 1000 years of being a church was a good idea?

As I said: the added benefit is it might cause some violence, allowing the government to prosecute those guys not for their opinions but for their deeds.

Why I expect only mild violence? Because of the precedent set by holding a baptism service in the Armenian cathedral of Akdamar. There were some tens of protesters in spite of that church being "bad" for 2 reasons (because it was a church and because it was Armenian). Yet the protests didn't escalate in violence.

St. Sofia is "bad" only because it is a church, but at least it isn't Armenian. Plus the people from Istanbul are much more Westernized than those from the Adkamar area, and judging by the Taksim barracks incident, there are plenty of them who aren't enthusiastic about reviving the Ottoman greatness. Therefore I don't expect too many Molotov cocktails flying left and right if St. Sofia reopens as a church.

If Turkey wants to show respect to Christian minority, there are better , less provoking and more functioning ways, for example opening this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halki_seminary

Simple majority actually don't care much about its being open or closed, it would enrage some ineffectual beardies and nationalist at best, its riduculous to keep it closed.

Any steps which help the Muslim majority understand that the sky doesn't fall over their heads if the Christians can live a normal live in Turkey is always welcome.

[Tureuki]

Its 15th century what do you expect ? may be we should start impaling people as well ?

Akdamar was always been a church, its just restored, if you think its same with turning a mosque building of 500+ years which has great symbolic importance in a city of 10+ million Muslims you should seriously reconsider your opinion, you have no idea how ridiculous its sounds like, its like turning a cathedral at a centre of the city to a pagan temple because it was a pagan temple before.

[Dromikaites]

Its 15th century what do you expect ? may be we should start impaling people as well ?

Akdamar was always been a church, its just restored, if you think its same with turning a mosque building of 500+ years which has great symbolic importance in a city of 10+ million Muslims you should seriously reconsider your opinion, you have no idea how ridiculous its sounds like, its like turning a cathedral at a centre of the city to a pagan temple because it was a pagan temple before.

Let's define that symbolic importance and then see if considering that symbol as important helps of hinders Turkish population's real interests.

So please, Turkish posters, explain why it is important for you that St. Sophia does not become a church again?

[Tureuki]

Why is it important for Christians then ? what functional reasoning does it have ?

[Dromikaites]

Why is it important for Christians then ? what functional reasoning does it have ?

The churches were transformed into mosques when the Christians became second-class citizens of the Ottoman state. Restoring them to their initial destination would mark the return of the Christians to equal status.

That the monastery of Mor Gabriel had to regain its properties by special law, after failing to do so through the more normal recourse to the Turkish courts of law, that the Halki seminary is still closed and has its properties demolished one by one, that the Armenians can perform religious services in the Armenian Cathedral of the Holy Cross only occasionally by government approval are all indications the Christians are still discriminated.

And let's put the things into perspective:

1) Judging by the staunch opposition to rebuilding the Ottoman barrack in Taksim Square, most of the Turks are actually displeased with the idea of "reviving the Ottoman glory";

2) Judging by the fact books about the Armenian Genocide are sold freely in the main bookshops in Turkey, without angry mobs devastating those shops shows the largest part of the Turkish population have already accepted that was a bad episode of the past;

3) Even though 4 to 6.4 million people went to nationalist and anti-Western movies, they were still a minority among the Turkish adult population (the largest part of Turkish adults didn't fall for such crap).

So the conditions are quite likely ripe for restoring the Christians to equal-status citizens, once the minority which still opposes that is dealt with.

[Tureuki]

I told you there are better and functioning ways for this, let alone Hagia Sophia, there are many other mosques which were churches some 500-600 years ago, what is done is done, there is no logic on for example turning my quarter's old, symbolic mosque into a church while there is not even a Christian community.

Functioning ways are for example allowing theological school to operate, restoring damaged churches and handing them over to Christian community.

All three points are wrong.

[Slydessertfox]

I'm still waiting for all those pagan temples turned into churches to be turned back into pagan temples. Like I said, let's start with the Pantheon. Again, at least the Hagia Sophia is a museum-and it should stay that way. It's a world heritage site, it hasn't bee a church for 550 years. Deal with it.

[Odenat]

I'm still waiting for all those pagan temples turned into churches to be turned back into pagan temples. Like I said, let's start with the Pantheon. Again, at least the Hagia Sophia is a museum-and it should stay that way. It's a world heritage site, it hasn't bee a church for 550 years. Deal with it.

Very good point my friend. Our Greek friends, please turn the Pantheon to a pagan temple please. And also, it will be very good if you build "one" mosque for the Muslims living at Athens. And of course, turn the mosques built by the Ottomans back to being mosques. 10.000s of Muslims are living there and not one mosque exists. Istanbul have 40 churches !

As we started, it'll be very good if Spain start to turn the Andalus churches back to mosques also. Do you know that the great mosque of Cordoba is turned to a cathedral and if a muslim try to pray there, he gets arrested ?

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world...ship-1.1686564

[Slydessertfox]

The Pantheon is in Rome...You are thinking of the Parthenon, which is kind of...well, not functional.

[Odenat]

The Pantheon is in Rome...You are thinking of the Parthenon, which is kind of...well, not functional.

So what, when Greek rebels took Athens at 1832, they destroyed the mosque of Parthenon like many, many others mosques.

So before coming here to ask about something, they can ask from their government to restore all Ottoman mosques.

[Dromikaites]

So what, when Greek rebels took Athens at 1832, they destroyed the mosque of Parthenon like many, many others mosques.

So before coming here to ask about something, they can ask from their government to restore all Ottoman mosques.

There's a little nuance you seem to miss. The churches which need to be restored in Turkey are to be restored for the use of the Turkish citizens, by the Turkish government.

If the Spanish citizens of Muslim faith have an issue with the former mosques, they should deal with...the Spanish authorities. If that doesn't work, they should go to Burssels. If the Greek citizens of Muslim faith have issues in Greece, they can follow a similar path: first Athens, then Brussels.

The 3 situations are not interconnected. There's no quid-pro-quo going on among Greece, Spain and Turkey. The only instance when Spain, Greece are Turkey are in some way interconnected with the Christians' rights in Turkey is when Spain and Greece approve Turkey's ascension to the EU. Or when they vote EU sanctions against Turkey.

[neoptolemos]

2 Byzantine churches turned into from museums into mosques

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/hagia-sofia...rabazon-494506

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/09/wo...pagewanted=all