So was this the original hoplite phalanx?

[AgentGB]

Out of curiosity, what do you guys think about a hoplite phalanx looking more like this?

yeah, but only the first two lines should be effective at fighting, and the 2nd line holding there spear above there head to strike down. The reason why the sarissa had there pike going up, and always striking up, is because if was to strike down, they would have trouble dislodging the pike from the ground since there cumbersome. While in a moving formation, this would be deadly to the momentum of the attack. I agree the appearance for the hoplite phalanx should look better, but the pike phalanx is ok, and its quite possible to change the spacing between units.

Ill admit missles are extremely deadly to the front, but then to be fair, they seem just about deadly to any unit atm, including legionaries with there scutum . Also in the Roma surrectum mod, i believe they show the two rank deep formation of the hoplite phalanx, the 2nd rank holding the spear above the head, but i can't quite remember if they fought as so, i think they did!?

In game
Pike phalanx - 3 ranks deep can all bring there spears to bare
Hoplite phalanx - 1 rank deep can bring there spears to bare

Historically
Pike phalanx - 5 ranks deep can all bring there spears to bare
Hoplite phalanx - 2 ranks deep can bring there spear to bare

Gaming the game
2x Pike phalanx overlapped on top of each other - 2x3 ranks deep can bring 6 spears to bare. Before you could stretch your units out to 3 ranks deep and do this, you can still do this if static, but when moving, you need to have your ranks deeper like 5 ranks, if preforming the overlapping attack while moving forward. Due to weight now being a factor. Although there isn't much need now, unless fighting in a closed space.

[Sheridan]

yeah, but only the first two lines should be effective at fighting, and the 2nd line holding there spear above there head to strike down. The reason why the sarissa had there pike going up, and always striking up, is because if was to strike down, they would have trouble dislodging the pike from the ground since there cumbersome. While in a moving formation, this would be deadly to the momentum of the attack. I agree the appearance for the hoplite phalanx should look better, but the pike phalanx is ok, and its quite possible to change the spacing between units.

Ill admit missles are extremely deadly to the front, but then to be fair, they seem just about deadly to any unit atm, including legionaries with there scutum . Also in the Roma surrectum mod, i believe they show the two rank deep formation between, of the 2nd rank holding the spear above the head, but i can't quite remember if they fought as so, i think they did!?

In game
Pike phalanx - 3 ranks deep can all bring there spears to bare
Hoplite phalanx - 1 rank deep can bring there spears to bare

Historically
Pike phalanx - 5 ranks deep can all bring there spears to bare
Hoplite phalanx - 2 ranks deep can bring there spear to bare

Gaming the game
2x Pike phalanx overlapped on top of each other - 2x3 ranks deep can bring 6 spears to bare. Before you could stretch your units out to 3 ranks deep and do this, you can still do this if static, but when moving, you need to have your ranks deeper like 5 ranks, if preforming the overlapping attack. Due to weight now being a factor. Although there isn't much need now, unless fighting in a closed space.

I think this can be adjusted in the animations. Another thing is the shields, which also has to be addressed there or hoplites will hold their shields like a pike unit. Will return as soon as I have some info

[Petroniu]

The hoplite phalanxes in the game are kind of different in the game because they do not really overlap their shields although they kind of function pretty good and hold people at bay.

As for the pike phalanxes, what I really miss in Rome 2 is the fact that they decided to make pikes stronger and reduce them to 160 men per unit rather than 240 like in old Rome or why not 320? I mean, you would expect to see a taxeis which is a square of pikes but you cannot achieve that in the game. Truth be told, the Successors did move away from the real organized pike phalanx of Philip II and Alexander and streamlined their armies to a kilometer long line of pikes to act as an anvil while their shock cavalry acted as the hammer. A mile away seen tactic if you ask me but damn sure effective.

[perifanosEllinas]

Historically

Hoplite phalanx - 2 ranks deep can bring there spear to bare

No.They had the reach to engage with 3 ranks of spears.It is tested and proved by reenactors.

[AgentGB]

I apologise you are correct perhaps, was thinking about the center of gravity when holding a spear to be truely effective. Although as you mentioned earlier, they may have fought two ranks deep in a line stretched out, but it wasn't the norm, since the weight of the formation is what they relied on and for the formation not to break. If CA were to implement the hoplite phalanx fighting in 3 ranked deep effective formations, it would mean the sarissa formation would need to be increased to a effective 5 ranked formation, although i think 5 ranked frontage was more of a Macedonian thing, i think going of memory, other greeks adopting the sarissa used 3 ranked deep even with the sarissa. But i see your point about it not being represented, with the overlapping shields, or even that of a two ranked overhead attack formation even for balance reasons, since only the first rank appears to be fighting.

[Toho]

No.They had the reach to engage with 3 ranks of spears.It is tested and proved by reenactors.

that looks like an extremely awkward way of holding a spear.

[Plinius]

I think , There is problem that hoplite phalanx isn´t able to hold the formation during attack and depth formation of phalanx isn´t play important role in battle.

[GussieFinkNottle]

that looks like an extremely awkward way of holding a spear.

Also, incredibly dangerous to the faces, arms and hands of the troops behind you. Remember the Dory spear has a point at both ends.

Furthermore, standing that close together would make it impossible to move and fight: there are many famous battles, such as Agincourt, where soldiers standing too close together caused a crush and they lost the battle, unable to move or breathe. A sort of ancient-world Hillsborough.

There is considerable debate over whether hoplites really often fought overarm, or if this is just generally for dramatic purposes on vase paintings and the like.

Ancient depictions of underarm hoplites:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

And overarm hoplites:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Durnaug]

Furthermore, standing that close together would make it impossible to move and fight: there are many famous battles, such as Agincourt, where soldiers standing too close together caused a crush and they lost the battle, unable to move or breathe. A sort of ancient-world Hillsborough.

There is considerable debate over all aspects of hoplite combat - even the concept of the mass shove. There are experts who equally hold that such closely packed formations are viable and attested to in the literature. Unfortunately classical hoplite combat remains mysterious - you can read one Phd that concludes othismos is highly unlikely and then another report that concludes the mass shove is likely. The field is so self-contradictory that experts actually allude to Hillsborough-like disasters to emphasize the force generated by crowds. Total. Blaady. Mystery.

[Holger Danske]

I find it funny people here see the phalangite as a defensive infantryman when they time and time again were used very aggressively, with devastating effect. But from what I've read/heard the later phalangites were much heavier equipped than those of Alexander, therefore much less mobile on the battlefield.

Either way a block of men (16 ranks deep) with a total of 80 spears moving towards you will destroy anything that isn't organized to face it.

[Durnaug]

I find it funny people here see the phalangite as a defensive infantryman when they time and time again were used very aggressively, with devastating effect. But from what I've read/heard the later phalangites were much heavier equipped than those of Alexander, therefore much less mobile on the battlefield.

Either way a block of men (16 ranks deep) with a total of 80 spears moving towards you will destroy anything that isn't organized to face it.

Quite right. And the Macedonians used their pike phalanx (yes I know we've moved on from the classical hoplite) to fight on mountainous terrain against the Spartans. Antigonus doubled the phalanx into a close, dense body to counteract the Spartan momentum. I think. I'll have to read up on the Sellasia battle again. But it definitely proves that a properly trained pike phalanx was not restricted to flat plains and could also initiate complex formations, to fight offensively, up large hilly terrain.

[AgentGB]

There is considerable debate over all aspects of hoplite combat - even the concept of the mass shove. There are experts who equally hold that such closely packed formations are viable and attested to in the literature. Unfortunately classical hoplite combat remains mysterious - you can read one Phd that concludes othismos is highly unlikely and then another report that concludes the mass shove is likely. The field is so self-contradictory that experts actually allude to Hillsborough-like disasters to emphasize the force generated by crowds. Total. Blaady. Mystery.

Yeah

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

On the pike phalanx versus the legions, im sure some of you have seen this.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Durnaug]

Yeah

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

On the pike phalanx versus the legions, im sure some of you have seen this.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Brilliant. Looking forward to watching these.

[cowbell kid]

I've made some changes. Decreased spacing and then tried to give the hoplites the pikemen animation. But since they don't have a sword as a secondary they just punch the enemy with their fist-sword. I also tried the same with spartan pike and they seem to work a lot better. Because they are so close the enemy could run through the pikes like usual. The only time they could is when they charged and instantly died and slid under the pikes as a dead body.

[RedGuard]

Yeah

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

On the pike phalanx versus the legions, im sure some of you have seen this.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

thanks for the watching material, I was looking for something like this on youtube. This guy isn't a bad speaker either which most lecturers on youtube are boring and repetitive

[AgentGB]

Its a pretty dam good watch guys it will probably get taken down at some point, since its part of a box set lecture series if i remember correctly. Yeah totally love this stuff too, quite refreshing to watch compared to your history channel documentary! Can watch it all day, same reason i love Roma Surrectum, learn quite a bit from playing that mod, dam pity i have trouble remembering it all

[SupAll]

Wow, very awesome videos. I didn't realize that there was such uncertainty in the way a Hoplite phalanx fought. It kinda makes anyone's complaints about the phalanx formations in R2 kinda moot...

[jamreal18]

In trailer:

​In defensive mode... not holding spars upward....

Attack in formation:



except that one whos trying to be a hero....

[Archimonday]

And overarm hoplites:

The entire depiction is more interesting. It clear shows two ranks of Hoplites on the left side, carrying two different spears, presumably one to be thrown (the one seen overhand) and the one to be used as a thrust spear (here held in the shield hand.) Then, enough space between the two ranks for musicians to stand, and a third rank gearing up behind them and running towards the formation, there is reference to the idea that Hoplites dawned their equipment at the last possible moment, to avoid fatigue.

While I know about the literary sources, and everything in the ancient world as far as artwork and literature must be taken with a grain of salt, I highly doubt Hoplites were fighting back-to-shield, ankle-to-ankle, overhand with spears.

[JaM]

The entire depiction is more interesting. It clear shows two ranks of Hoplites on the left side, carrying two different spears, presumably one to be thrown (the one seen overhand) and the one to be used as a thrust spear (here held in the shield hand.) Then, enough space between the two ranks for musicians to stand, and a third rank gearing up behind them and running towards the formation, there is reference to the idea that Hoplites dawned their equipment at the last possible moment, to avoid fatigue.

While I know about the literary sources, and everything in the ancient world as far as artwork and literature must be taken with a grain of salt, I highly doubt Hoplites were fighting back-to-shield, ankle-to-ankle, overhand with spears.

shame he didn't posted entire picture but just a portion of it.. if he did, it would be completely clear that the one held overarm is indeed the javelin.

here is the complete picture of that vase:




Interesting part is on far side, where those two hoplites are getting ready for fight - look at those javelins, they clearly have leather ankyle attached. That leather strip was used to throw javelin farther and faster, it would have no benefit having ankyle attached to thrusting spear... also, you can see that these javelins have much smaller (black) head, while spears carried horizontally have large (white) heads. Also if you look at those hoplites standing against each other, look at the grip they have - there is a clear detail of finger up grip, which is precisely how javelin with ankyle would be held:




it could be held either with two fingers, or with a thumb.



and for the Hoplite formation, here is the most efficient way how to use a spear in close ranks (from a Storm of Spears by CH. Matthew):

In trailer:

​In defensive mode... not holding spars upward....

Makes me wonder.. what happened to CA... they had it right in this trailer, yet, it didnt made into a game? WHY WHY WHY CA?