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Thread: [Amendment] Abolish CdeC

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    Default [Amendment] Abolish CdeC

    Supporters: Stealth Fox, Ishan, jimkatalanos, Inkie Pie, m_1512, Karamazovmm, Omnipotent-Q, ☩Lord Inquisitor Derpy Hooves☩, Dictator Of The Roman Republic, Heinz Guderian, Tiberios, ElvenKind, Genius of the Restoration, God-Emporer of Manking, Seether, La♔De♔Da♔Brigadier Graham, The Hedge Knight, Princess Luna, Poach, Hobbes, Garbarsardar

    I've though long and hard about this, and CdeC is clearly incapable of deciding whether or not a person qualifies for citizenship. There have been numerous cases where CdeC either failed candidates or had to be brow beaten into passing candidates who should have been welcomed with open arms, both of which are entirely unacceptable. More I'd argue that CdeC's continual raising of the bar of citizenship is a large part of the problems that are affecting the curia right now. Activity is down, nominations for the upper awards are basically non-existant, the place is a barren wasteland, something needs to give and this is going to be it. Let the citizenry at large decide who should be a citizen. The CdeC can still decide on disciplinary issues as they seem, barely, competent to do that.

    EDIT: After discussion in the bill the bill will be changed to totally eliminate CdeC.

    The list of changes will be large so it will take me some time to put them all in here, but in the mean time discuss.

    Changes:

    Move Questiones Perpetuae from CdeC to Curia Votes
    Change permission on Questiones Perpetuae to allow Full Members to view
    Move Citizens Antechamber to Curia Archive
    Move Politia to Curia Main forum
    Removal of various CdeC forums that are no longer needed, and threads to be kept are moved to the Politia

    Quote Originally Posted by Section II Article II
    Election VotesWhen a Curial Election is required, the Curator shall open an application thread in the Curia and the Curator shall post an announcement in any relevant forum. Applicants for the vacant position must post their reasons for wishing to hold the position and any relevant qualifications in the application thread. Any comments, debates or off topic posting shall be deleted. The thread shall remain open for one week.

    The Hexagon Council may veto applicants, and should more than six members apply for any position, may shortlist six members to stand for the election. Once applications are complete, the Curator shall open a poll in the Curia Votes and sticky the thread. The vote shall last for one week, and the member who receives the plurality of votes shall be elected.

    Where more than one of the same position is vacant, the procedure is the same, and the members with the highest votes are elected. In the case of ties, a run off vote is held between the tied members lasting 3 days.

    Where the election is for the vacant position of Curator, all candidates must meet the requirements of CdeCMagistrate applications. A debate thread shall be opened at the same time as the application thread in the main Curia by the Curator for Curia members to question candidates on their election. Non-candidates may post in this thread but all posts must be directing a relevant question or questions towards the candidates. Candidates may post as much as needed in this thread. The debate thread shall be closed at the end of the elections.


    Votes of No ConfidenceAt any time, any Citizen of Total War Center may initiate a Vote of No Confidence in any member holding a position elected by the Curia, or in any individual who is responsible for managing some part of the site. A VoNC may only be initiated for neglect of duty or abuse of authority. Frivolous use of this procedure shall be considered grounds for CdeCCurial disciplinary proceedings. VoNCs are exempt from veto. A VoNC against an elected member results in that member's immediate demotion, while other VoNCs are non-binding. The debate and vote on a Vote of No Confidence shall follow the same procedure as that of a bill as per Section II, Article III.

    In the event that a current member of the CdeC Magistrate wins an election for the position of Curator, they will then beare required to immediately resign their CdeC seatas Magistrate. The new occupant of the vacated CdeC seatA new Magistrate will be selected as per Section II, Articles II & V.
    Quote Originally Posted by Section II Article IV
    [fieldset]Article IV. Disciplinary ProcedureThe Consilium de CivitatesThe Consilium de CivitatesCitizens Triumvirate manages the granting and removal of all Curia Ranks by voting. The Consilium de Civitates may also function as an advisory body to the staff of TWC in matters concerning the Curia and its Citizens.

    MembershipThe full membership comprises of:

    • The current sitting Magistrates
    • The Curator, who maymust take part in all Consilium de CivitatesCitizens Triumvirate discussions, and has the deciding vote only in the case of a tie. The Curator has veto powers over any Consilium de Civitates decision
    • Hexagon members, who may discuss all matters within the Consilium de CivitatesPolitia Forum, but have no vote.

    Elected members of the Consilium de CivitatesThe Magistrates and the Curator must actively participate in discussions and votes. Hexagon members' participation is optional.

    ElectionsConsilium de Civitates members are elected as per Article II, Section II for three months, with the added requirements that that they currently have no active staff warnings and that for the period of three months prior to the commencement of the elections they have; held their rank as citizen, and received no warnings from the Consilium de Civitates. Applicants who do not meet these requirements will be invited to withdraw by the Curator by PM detailing on what criteria they failed. Should the notified candidate fail to satisfy the Curator that they do indeed meet the criteria for application they will be removed from consideration by the Curator prior to the shortlisting of candidates for election. At the time of removal the candidates failed criteria will be placed in the application thread for public scrutiny.

    If a member of the Consilium de Civitates leaves office for any reason before the expiration of their term, the vacant position may be filled by Curator appointment. The Curator may appoint a Citizen that ran in the immediate previous election or a Staff Member who otherwise fits the requirements for the position. The appointment shall expire with the positions that are next up for election when a replacement member will be elected to serve the remainder of the term. If choosing from a pool of election candidates, any vacant positions will be filled in decreasing order of time remaining on the term starting from the next highest vote recipient after those who are elected to full terms.

    The Curator should take appropriate and reasonable actions within the guidelines set out above to ensure that the Consilium de Civitates remains at full strength.


    Removal from OfficeA Consilium de Civitates member may resign from office, or can be removed from office by a majority vote of the elected councillors, such a vote being triggered by any of the following:
    • Incurring a warning level of one
    • Incurring two cautions in the space of three months
    • Incurring a Consilium de Civitates warning
    • Incurring two Consilium de Civitates notes in the space of three months
    • Prolonged inactivity, as decided by a simple majority vote in the Consilium de Civitates

    Upon conclusion of a vote to remove a councilor the proceedings shall be made public.


    Voting ProcedureAll votes conducted by The Consilium de Civitatesthe Citizens Triumvirate shall list the vote option chosen by each voting member.
    Quote Originally Posted by Section III Article II
    Article II. PatronisationAny Citizen holding their rank for three months can patronise a Peregrinus for citizenship subject to the requirements in Article I above. The process of patronisation is as follows.


    1. The patron confirms the candidate meets the requirements, OR a candidate meeting the requirements contacts a Citizen asking for patronage.
    2. The nominee sends the patron a PM explaining his duties and privileges as a Citizen, and his contributions to the community.
    3. In the case that the nominee wishes his citizenship application to be public:The patron posts this paragraph, along with his own, outlining why he nominated this member, in a new thread in the Quaestiones Perpetuae forum. Transparency of the Quaestiones Perpetuae forum is limited to Citizens only.
    4. If the nominee wishes his citizenship application to remain private, the patron sends the paragraph, along with his own, outlining why he nominated this member, to either the Curator or a member of the Consilium de Civitate. The application itself will then be posted in the Politia.
    5. After two days have passed the Curator adds a Poll lasting for five days.
    6. If the nominee achieves sixty per cent of the non-abstaining votes and at least two-thirds of all CdeC members voted, he becomes a Citizen.
    7. In exceptional circumstances, tThe period of discussion can be extended at the behest of Councilors and discretion of the Curator, to comply with the voting requirements or otherwiseprovided he explains his action.
    8. The Curator informs the candidate and patron of the result. If the candidate does not pass, the Curator includes the date at which they may re-apply.
    9. If the candidate passes, the Curator promotes the member to Citizen.


    After the conclusion of the vote, if the examination was private the applicant can make it public by PMing the Curator. If a nominee fails his vote, he is not eligible to be considered again for one month after the conclusion of the traditional seven day processing period. Members of the CdeCCitizens must not voteneither vote nor post in applications of members they patronizse.
    Quote Originally Posted by Section III Article IV
    Article IV. The CuratorThe Curator shall be elected by the procedure in Section 2 Article 2, with the addition that the Curator shall post the mandate for the job in the Qualifications thread.

    The Curator shall hold office for a period of three months from the day the individual is elected. If the Curator is absent (has not logged into the site) for 7 days without giving notice of an absence, or if the Curator is absent for more than 15 days regardless of notice, or if the Curator resigns, the Curator is automatically removed from office along with any appointed staff.

    Any decisions of this office shall be held over until a replacement is elected.

    Where such a decision is time-limited, time from the moment the office of the Curator is removedempty shall not count towards the limit and will continue only from when a new Curator is elected. When the office of the Curator has been removedis empty the Magistrate whose term is closest to completion will organize the election for a new curator., the CdeC shall appoint a Pro-Curator. The Pro-Curator shall be the longest serving current elected CdeC member. Where multiple members were elected on the same day, the Pro-Curator shall be the member with the highest number of votes in the CdeC election. Should the qualifying CdeC member intend to stand for Curator, the said individual may not become Pro-Curator and the next longest serving member is appointed.

    The Pro-Curator shall carry out any outstanding tasks of the Curator that should have been done during the time the Curator was absent. During the Curator's absense, the Pro-Curator's duties shall be limited to organising any election proceedings for vacant Curial posts and organising any required CdeC polls. Once a new Curator is elected, the Pro-Curator shall resume duties in the CdeC.

    If, in the judgement of the Consilium de Civitates, the Curator has neglected the duties of the office or abused the position, it may dismiss the Curator and arrange new elections. The procedure to remove the curator is the same as that to remove a councilor.


    The Curator is responsible for ensuring the Curia's day-to-day tasks get done. Upon entering office the Curator must officially appoint at least one Citizen to fulfill the Curator's role on a planned or unplanned absence, and should the Curator wish, to assist with day to day tasks.

    No matter who carries out the tasks assigned to the Curator, the Curator is the one responsible for seeing that they are done promptly and correctly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Section IV
    Section IV - The Judiciary
    Article I. Citizen's BehaviorThe suspension and removal of a Rank is handled by the Citizen's TriumvirateConsilium de Civitates via the following disciplinary process. No Citizen may be subject to more than one process for a single post.

    Procedure

    If any Citizen receives a staff warning from a moderator they will be referred to the Citizen's TriumvirateConsilium de Civitates for potential action. The Moderation Overseers will appoint one of themselves to keep track of Citizen's infractions and promptly forward any new ones to the Curator for posting. The accused will then be asked by the Curator to produce a defence within ninty six hours. At the request of the accused, the Curator shall also accept materials provided on behalf of the accused. Also such materials by the accused or on behalf of the accused shall be posted up and until the first poll voting is concluded and must be considered by Citizen's TriumvirateCdeC in the second poll if such a poll is required. At the conclusion of this period, regardless of whether a defence has been received, a vote shall be opened by the Curator to conclude after four days. The options are:
    • Dismiss the Case
    • Take Further Action
    • Abstain


    If the
    Citizen's TriumvirateCdeC vote to take further action, The Curator shall open a second poll for four days. The options are:

    CurialCdeC Note:

    • Censure

    CurialCdeC Warning:
    • Suspension of rank for 1 week
    • Suspension of rank for 2 weeks
    • Suspension of rank for 1 month
    • Suspension of rank for 2 months
    • Removal of Rank

    No CurialCdeC Penalty:
    • Abstain

    A simple majority of non abstaining members is required for the vote to pass. In the case of a disciplinary action vote, the option with the highest number of votes is the action taken. Where two options have the same number of votes, the action taken is determined by multiple transferable vote.

    If a Citizen is referred by another Citizen, the process is the same, except that the warning is substituted for the referrer's accusation, and the defendant shall receive an anonymous copy of the accusation from the Curator.

    At the conclusion of the process, the Curator informs the referred member of the result, and asks whether the member wants the case to be made public or kept private. Cases made public are moved to the Antechamber, viewable by all members; private cases are kept in the Politia, viewable only to the CdeC.

    A Rank may not be removed except by the procedure outlined in this Article. Divus, Opifex and Phalera awards may only be removed by a Decision of the Curia or by the request of the rank holder.

    Members of the Citizen's TriumvirateCdeC must neither post nor vote in their own disciplinary cases.


    Article II. TribunalTo defend the rights of Members, and to ensure fair and just punishment towards those who violate the laws of TWC, a Tribunal shall be established.

    The purpose of the Tribunal is to provide those members of TWC who have been punished in the past by the Moderation Branch a place to request the reversal of their punishment. This is in no way a guarantee that the punishment will be removed, but every case presented will be reviewed by a panel of three judges.

    Members may create a thread in the Tribunal Forum, The Judges will study the case details, and may request any additional information on the member from the Senior Moderators. The Judges will then post the majority decision. The Judges are not tasked to decide the appropriateness or validity of a Forum Rule of Term of Service, and may only rule on whether the Term was correctly enforced and the punishment suitable for the offence.

    Article III. JudgesTo serve on the Tribunal, a panel of Tribunes is appointed by the Hexagon Council. Tribunes can only be drawn from the ranks of those with at least a Silver Moderator's Mace or from those who have served as Magistrate for at least one term.

    In addition, two Magistrates shall be elected, for 3 month terms, by the procedure in Section II, Article II. Applicants cannot have received an infraction, or a Curial Warning in at least one year and must have been citizens for at least 3 months. Magistrates cannot serve consecutive terms.

    Magistrates rotate as acting Tribunes, each voting on one of every two cases. Should a Tribune recuse himself or there is a tie between Tribunes,the other Magistrate respectively votes in their stead or is called to break the tie. Magistrates are terminated by a unanimous vote of the Tribunes.
    Last edited by Shankbot de Bodemloze; March 20, 2014 at 06:09 PM.
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  2. #2
    Navajo Joe's Avatar SS Forum Moderator
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    Default Re: [Amendment] CdeC no longer decides on citizenship

    Oppose, what will you replace it with?





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    The Hedge Knight's Avatar Fierce When Cornered
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    Default Re: [Amendment] CdeC no longer decides on citizenship

    I like the idea in principle. Given the general lack of citizen activity however (presumably they are the logical choice for deciding on citizenship) I can't see why current citizens would debate/vote applications unless obliged too by being a cdec member.

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    Default Re: [Amendment] CdeC no longer decides on citizenship

    Originally, Citizens were decided by the site's administration, meaning staff. The decision making process was closed to anyone without access to the staff forum; that prevented enmity towards staff and also permitted a free exchange of opinions on the quality of a member. The CdeC supplanted staff in this role with, initially, similar conditions. Later the patronisation process became more open for non-members. Now, if we have an open discussion thread and a vote, how are we going to prevent resentment from failed applicants towards nonsupporting members?

    I don't know, I haven't been around the place lately but I consider that the whole Curial stagnation thing is a vicious circle running from lack of purpose to lack of confidence and back to lack of purpose. Curia should be entrusted with a purpose beyond atavistic self-perpetuation but do we trust it enough for that? And will it ever gain trust if there is no sense of purpose?

    The other perspective is to enhance the role playing element (political parties, open Ostracism, christians, lions) but even for that a sense of purpose is necessary.

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    Default Re: [Amendment] CdeC no longer decides on citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by Navajo Joe View Post
    Oppose, what will you replace it with?
    No formal structure, the citizenry at large will decide on who is to become a citizen. It will function more or less like CdeC does now, but all citizens can participate.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Hedge Knight View Post
    I like the idea in principle. Given the general lack of citizen activity however (presumably they are the logical choice for deciding on citizenship) I can't see why current citizens would debate/vote applications unless obliged too by being a cdec member.
    After hex stopped doing it, but before CdeC came into being the curia at large decided things like membership and even discipline without the need of a position to make them do it. Personally I think discipline should remain private, but see no reason why the curia at large can't decide who should join its ranks.
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    Default Re: [Amendment] CdeC no longer decides on citizenship

    The changes were smaller than I thought. Discuss the specifics.
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    Navajo Joe's Avatar SS Forum Moderator
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    Default Re: [Amendment] CdeC no longer decides on citizenship

    Why keep CDEC at all, let HEX deal with the discipline of citizens?





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    Default Re: [Amendment] CdeC no longer decides on citizenship

    Because then discipline is kept in the curia as hex are not required to be citizens.
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    Shankbot de Bodemloze's Avatar From the Writers Study!
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    Default Re: [Amendment] CdeC no longer decides on citizenship

    Oppose.

    Private applications won't really be private as all Citizens can see, makes it more about popularity, can't track who misses votes, can't be sure people are considering the application when they vote, could create resentment towards 'no' voters, people not want to raise certain points/issues if everyone can see what they've said, it will come down to when you apply and who happens to vote as there is no accountability etc.

    What about when Staff matters are sometimes discussed in CdeC private quarters for certain applications? Will Staff allow those to be posted in the Curia as a whole?
    Last edited by Shankbot de Bodemloze; February 19, 2014 at 11:12 AM.
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    Default Re: [Amendment] CdeC no longer decides on citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by Shankbot de Bodemloze View Post
    Oppose.

    Private applications won't really be private as all Citizens can see
    Yes, a side effect is that private application will disappear. Though they will still be private from the site at large, and if the applicant chooses it does not need to be published in the publicly viewable citizenship archive.

    makes it more about popularity, <snip> so it will come down to when you apply and which people vote.
    Better popularity than what currently goes on.

    can't track who misses votes etc.
    Who cares about tracking votes, that's only required for CdeC so citizens can make some determination about who to vote for.
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    Default Re: [Amendment] CdeC no longer decides on citizenship

    Does this mean that all citizens who want to vote on Candidates (before giving their vote ) should search for Candidate's posts, threads etc.., and investigate is the candidate worthy of citizenship? The Candidate does not make his application as he would do it before?
    American, French, Israeli and British government's ILLEGAL aggression against the Syrian people, without any proof for chemical attacks in Douma, and without waiting for OPCW to conduct their investigation..
    Sons of *******, leave that poor, war torn country in peace.
    If you are a citizen of one of these countries, then DO NOT ask any help from me on these forums, since, in protest against this aggression by your governments, I do not provide assistance/help anymore.
    Let Syria be finally in peace.

    A video of false chemical attack in Douma, Syria, which led to Western illegal attacks.

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    Default Re: [Amendment] CdeC no longer decides on citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by ElvenKind View Post
    Does this mean that all citizens who want to vote on Candidates (before giving their vote ) should search for Candidate's posts, threads etc.., and investigate is the candidate worthy of citizenship?
    Each citizen voting on a candidate would have to do whatever research they feel is required, similar to CdeC, before casting their vote.

    The Candidate does not make his application as he would do it before?
    The application procedure is the same as before except with no CdeC involvement there's no options for CdeC only (i.e. private) applications.
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    Shankbot de Bodemloze's Avatar From the Writers Study!
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    Default Re: [Amendment] CdeC no longer decides on citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by Squid View Post
    Yes, a side effect is that private application will disappear. Though they will still be private from the site at large, and if the applicant chooses it does not need to be published in the publicly viewable citizenship archive.
    I wouldn't say having it seen by all the Citizens is private.

    Better popularity than what currently goes on.
    What, having 12 elected members discuss each application and look through its merits and whether or not they have contributed enough to the site (what is supposed to happen) is better than having some become a Citizen because they are popular?

    To be fair I agree with that - so it would be better to change the concept of Citizenship from contribution to attitude.

    Who cares about tracking votes, that's only required for CdeC so citizens can make some determination about who to vote for.
    Just me then.
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    Default Re: [Amendment] CdeC no longer decides on citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by Shankbot de Bodemloze View Post
    What about when Staff matters are sometimes discussed in CdeC private quarters for certain applications? Will Staff allow those to be posted in the Curia as a whole?
    Given the only thing that is relevant is whether or not they have received an infraction in the last 6 month, which can be easily answered with a yes/no, I see no reason why that would change. Any further discussion of a members moderation history is irrelevant to the proceedings.
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    Navajo Joe's Avatar SS Forum Moderator
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    Default Re: [Amendment] CdeC no longer decides on citizenship

    Ok, so a candidate is put forward for citizenship, his supporter(s) are going to be pm'ing other citizens,
    'Hey you must vote for Joe on his citizenship'.
    Who is Joe?
    'It does not matter he needs your vote'

    You will have people being selected for all the wrong reasons. I agree the Curia and CDEC need reform, this is not it





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    Default Re: [Amendment] CdeC no longer decides on citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by Shankbot de Bodemloze View Post
    I wouldn't say having it seen by all the Citizens is private.
    Given currently at most ~36 people view the curia, that's fairly private compared to the thousands that view the site.

    What, having 12 elected members discuss each application and look through its merits and whether or not they have contributed enough to the site (what is supposed to happen) is better than having some become a Citizen because they are popular?
    Remember that popularity is limited by the behaviour requirements. Some of the "popular" site member would never get in because they can't go 1 month, much less 6 without an infraction. Not to mention that CdeC does a piss poor job of looking through merits and actually knowing their worth.

    To be fair I agree with that - so it would be better to change the concept of Citizenship from contribution to attitude.
    Attitude should be far more important than contribution. Some of the best citizens had very little contributions but great attitude and none of them would get in if they applied now. Based on how CdeC judges things currently most of the current CdeC, most hex would not be given citizenship if they applied with their application that they got accepted on. CdeC also seems to be unusually incapable of seeing value in anything that isn't shining or blinking or otherwise smacking them in face like a 2x4.
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    Default Re: [Amendment] CdeC no longer decides on citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by Navajo Joe View Post
    Ok, so a candidate is put forward for citizenship, his supporter(s) are going to be pm'ing other citizens,
    'Hey you must vote for Joe on his citizenship'.
    Who is Joe?
    'It does not matter he needs your vote'
    The only difference is that right now only 12 people can be bribed or otherwise pressured. Either way its still something a member can, and should, be brought forward on for disciplinary review.

    You will have people being selected for all the wrong reasons. I agree the Curia and CDEC need reform, this is not it
    Better they become citizens for the wrong reasons than not become citizens at all.
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  18. #18
    Påsan's Avatar Hva i helvete?
    Citizen

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    Default Re: [Amendment] CdeC no longer decides on citizenship

    If getting rid of the CdeC we might as well just instigate Poach's house proposition instead of trying a "Citizens vote" variant.

    Because in my eyes, removing the CdeC would not solve the main issue, which is that the Curia is perceived as boring and/or useless. It would remove the CdeC elections which at least attach a certain number of people to the Curia.
    Last edited by Påsan; February 19, 2014 at 11:50 AM.

  19. #19
    Mhaedros's Avatar Brave Heart Tegan
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    Default Re: [Amendment] CdeC no longer decides on citizenship

    Opposed. If you think having a body of twelve deciding on who becomes citizen and who doesn't is bad you should think about what happens when the whole citizenry suddenly gets a vote. At least now we have a chance of voting for serious councilors, but if everyone can vote the whole process suddenly becomes a popularity contest. You might as well just give citizenship to anyone who has written a post in a debate thread or anyone who has edited a unit stat in Medieval 2 and let it be over with.

    I might not agree with every decision the CdeC ever does, but at least I trust the CdeC to review their cases and not just vote based on their opinions of the candidate.
    Under the patronage of Finlander. Once patron to someone, no longer.
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  20. #20
    Navajo Joe's Avatar SS Forum Moderator
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    Default Re: [Amendment] CdeC no longer decides on citizenship

    Squid,
    You are saying that CDEC is making the wrong decisions, setting standards too high and being inconsistent. I look on this way:
    1. Firstly the Curator as an opportunity to VETO, if they do not agree, no chance of using as they will be immediately VONC, a pointless deterrent, the Curator cannot realistically succeed.
    2. 12 Councillors far too many, with a 2/3rd of non-abstaining vote, reduce the number of Councilors to 4, plus one senior Councillor chosen by HEX or from HEX
    3. Councillors cannot abstain, its Yes/No, no fence sitters, in one application I sat on, three councillors abstained, the Curator did not VETO, should have done.
    4. The Senior Councillor votes last, if the vote is 2:2, the Senior vote is the decider.





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