Blood & Roses; A Campaign Mod for the War of the Roses Era

[k/t]

Maybe 1 extra to Influence for diplomats, or some traits for generals who spend time in a city with a military academy. +Command, for example. Or 5% more movement points due to studying logistics.

[Used2BRoz]

Maybe 1 extra to Influence for diplomats, or some traits for generals who spend time in a city with a military academy. +Command, for example. Or 5% more movement points due to studying logistics.

Yes those are good options

[Cesco]

This is a very ineteresting project, good luck to you! By the way are you planning to add new unit model? It is a big task, i know, but you could cover all faction's roster with only 15-20 new models (wich would have to be reskinned according to each faction). This would be a really big graphic improvement and and it would give to the mod more appeal. Think about it!

[k/t]

The best thing to do would be to find someone who has some nice units and ask to use them. Gemini Sandy made a bunch of new units for DLV; maybe he will allow them to be used. http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...-Overhaul-v2-0

Even if he doesn't, the SS units look fine. I don't think new units are a big priority, especially at this point.

[Live2sculpt]

The best thing to do would be to find someone who has some nice units and ask to use them. Gemini Sandy made a bunch of new units for DLV; maybe he will allow them to be used. http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...-Overhaul-v2-0

Even if he doesn't, the SS units look fine. I don't think new units are a big priority, especially at this point.

One problem is that we would most def need to be able to change the colors on the textures, and most modders aren't happy about sharing their models to have someone else rework them.

From my end, all I need is the work on the frames, and setting up the components for a tidy drag-n-drop. When it comes to the skins, I'd need permission access to open them up in photoshop and customize them.

Oh, and yea, I keep mixing up MY names for medieval weapons. Been calling poleaxes 'war hammers' and halberds 'poleaxes' ever since my Dungeons & Dragons days.

Still, most heavy armor troops of the time did not use shields.

[Live2sculpt]

This is a very ineteresting project, good luck to you! By the way are you planning to add new unit model? It is a big task, i know, but you could cover all faction's roster with only 15-20 new models (wich would have to be reskinned according to each faction). This would be a really big graphic improvement and and it would give to the mod more appeal. Think about it!

Indeed, but don't forget the other nations that will be represented in the BETA; Ireland, Scotland, France, and Flanders. The total list for the whole mod tops off at around 40, not including the English livery variations. How many of those can be used as is from vanilla or SS is still being explored.

We could do the textures already. What we need are good customized meshes done for us. We need some puffy sleeves, some higher hems above the thighs rather than above the knees, and some helmet and weapon transplants.

And I'm doubting that we will get that volunteer support until we have the ALPHA test up to share, and maybe a hosted mod forum.

[Used2BRoz]

I'm taking a short break - my eyes are too sore too look at the computer screen for any length of time.
Must be the glare from all the sunshine we're having
-------
Got stuck on the english family tree - I put the Bourchiers in, they're first because they live nearest to London.

Sorted the problem - it was a simple formatting error -two spaces where it should have been a tab.

So Bourchiers, Stanleys and Courtneys are in.

Next up Stafford, Percy and FitzAlan. Should be straightforward - he says

[Cesco]

Thank for answering probably the best thing to do is to make a playabke version at first, then someone could offer himself to make unit and texture. Again, i wish you good luck!

[Used2BRoz]

Well the alpha mod - which uses the vanilla map - is playable - but it's a long way from the full mod as we'd like to see it.

minor update : england faction now has the following families : Courtney, Stanley, Talbot, Bourchier, Stafford, FitzAlan, Wydeville, Percy, with all relevant members on the map or in descr_strat somewhere.
And yes young Elizabeth Wydeville starts on the map as she is a 16y ear old princess.
She did try and marry the faction heir to to the House of York, but despite accepting her, nothing happened.

To do : Mowbray (Norwich), de vere (Oxford), de Roos (Lincoln), and Holland (as Admiral of England, he can start on a ship )
And that I think is all the noble families needed in the alpha. At least that''s all the england settlements with a noble family governor.

I've moved a few forts around too.

I think once those are in, I'll have a play around with settlement mechanics to slow down growth, and reduce order a little too.

Build times for buildings needs to increased to take account of 4 turns per year, and maybe some adjustment to costs.

[Oznerol]

There is love at first sight? There must be! Or at least I think so, because...

I have just fell in love with this when I read the OP. This mod it is not only interesting because the very amazing setting (I absolutely love WotR, even if as an historian I'm not that fluent with it as I'm in later periods) but because the devotion you put into this. The mod is even beautiful, with a serious touch of authenticity (what's better than contemporary engravings and miniatures for the portraits? genious' worth!) and a trully amazing set of 2D art.

I will very eagerly follow this thread, each day, as a thirsty men in desert, waiting this jewel not only to be released but to read every preview or further info you post. Some time ago I was quite fluent codding, a shame I'm 'rusty' right now because you diserve all the help and support in the world.

Good luck and reps!

Regards

Signed: An ardent (and new) follower!

EDIT: Just edited my avatar and sig to praise you!

[k/t]

Rozanov is rusty too, but he's scrubbing the rust off. You could do the same and help polish the jewel.

I recommend including Fred Putz's Carl script. It helps the AI develop its settlements while not allowing it to recruit more units when bankrupt. http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...-version-added

[Live2sculpt]

There is love at first sight? There must be! Or at least I think so, because...

I have just fell in love with this when I read the OP. This mod it is not only interesting because the very amazing setting (I absolutely love WotR, even if as an historian I'm not that fluent with it as I'm in later periods) but because the devotion you put into this. The mod is even beautiful, with a serious touch of authenticity (what's better than contemporary engravings and miniatures for the portraits? genious' worth!) and a trully amazing set of 2D art.

I will very eagerly follow this thread, each day, as a thirsty men in desert, waiting this jewel not only to be released but to read every preview or further info you post. Some time ago I was quite fluent codding, a shame I'm 'rusty' right now because you diserve all the help and support in the world.

Good luck and reps!

Regards

Signed: An ardent (and new) follower!

EDIT: Just edited my avatar and sig to praise you!

The Pinnacle of Praise. Thank you.

Yes, we all know of overly-ambitious mods that died in the past. We hope that our approach is concise and contained enough to make it's release more achievable and imminent.

After S2TW was released it seemed that the M2TW engine might be too antiquated. But after everything the truth turns out that the old AI and the battle engine of M2TW is still in many ways better than the later titles. With the long history of AI improvements over the years, this mod can be made to behave in very challenging ways that are missed in ETW, NTW, S2TW, and R2TW.

In fact, with my later rig and a little tweaking, I can play HQ resolution battles with historically accurate army sizes (10,000 men) in this mod. Graphical enhancements and other techniques can be used to improve the battle maps themselves as well.

While I'm posting..
UPDATE: Well on my end I'm slowed by RL a bit. I'm testing the current build, haven't encountered any issues. Stitching the custom UI together with it is coming along. A few graphic slivers left to adjust here and there. I'm reworking the B&R logo. And the new portrait stack is now at around 300.

Modeller GeMiNi][SaNDy has offered to be our new core model volunteer. I have supplied him with some reference material and guidelines, and he thinks he can begin in about two weeks or so. And MrrRandomDude says he wants to make some of our custom strat models too.

Oznerol: If you really want to help out, I'd encourage you to PM Roz and offer your assistance with his scripting drudge at the very least. If you have old code habits, you'd at least be competent enough for him to count on to help modify unit cost rows etc.. Those kinds of things that just eat up time.

[k/t]

I'm not too busy with Tsardoms right now, so I could do something.

[Used2BRoz]

Thanks for the offer k/t -what sort of things do you like to do with mods ?

I'm rusty - true - and my eyesight isn't as good as it was - but I'm carrying on when I can.

Update - have had a go at settlement mechanics, based on a version used with the RozMod.
I've managed to bring population growth down from an average of 4% to 2% - but I need to do something about London as it went from -2% to -4%.
Big problem is squalor which is currently maxed out at 10%.
I re-read tsarsies excellent summary of settlement_mechanics that is in mod workshop, and I get the impression nobody really understands how squalor is calculated.
What will be needed is a boost to the public health from buildings to at least keep it more or less stable. Which is achievable.
Public order is still too generous, although we have to be aware that the AI tends to run all settlements at max taxation level if it can.

Families - everyone that I think is needed in the alpha version is in apart from Holland, who I'll do this weekend.
(TBH - I'm not sure there's much point in having too many english nobles in the game anyway - 12 should be enough.
If they are to be role-played they will need to access the england settlements as members of the england faction.

I've not looked at the scottish nobility yet.

As for the economics - I spent a couple of years trying to get that to run without some sort of script
- and came to the conclusion that whatever you do the AI will always overspend if it can, because that's what it is programmed to do.

To prevent the AI spamming armies, I prefer to throttle recruitment at source, ie reduce the rate at which units can be recruited.
Any excess money then gets spent on buildings and diplomacy.
(And giving the AI lots of money should make it more likely we'll get generals changing sides - something that needs to be in the game.)

not seen any plagues yet - I removed the script that makes it happen on particular dates - but not seen it occur at random yet.

---

more soon

[Live2sculpt]

Families - everyone that I think is needed in the alpha version is in apart from Holland, who I'll do this weekend.
(TBH - I'm not sure there's much point in having too many english nobles in the game anyway - 12 should be enough.
If they are to be role-played they will need to access the england settlements as members of the england faction.

For ALPHA I agree. But in BETA, I think you should go all out on the Who's-Who list. Esp with such a limited timeline, and the probability of attrition. The campaign needs a tall stack of nobles to burn through. Just like in history. And many will be engaged in combat as effective parts of the line, just like the historical accounts.

[k/t]

In that case, you should definitely put in officers for every unit, that way the general will not be in the front line and die first. So we will have dismounted generals only? With the occasional rare mounted knight unit and a little more common light cavalry?

"reduce the rate at which units can be recruited"

Yes, but the AI will be perpetually broke anyway, since it always recruits everything it can. When it has no money, it can't afford to build buildings that cost thousands of dollars. The Carl script makes buildings cost 1 dollar for the AI, so even when it has little money (the script doesn't give huge amounts to the AI, only enough to get it out of debt) it can build but not recruit. Giving it large amounts of money doesn't do that much since unit upkeep will eat a large portion of that.

"Public order is still too generous, although we have to be aware that the AI tends to run all settlements at max taxation level if it can."

Buildings can be made to give extra growth and order bonuses to the AI only. They will be necessary to some extent (especially the order ones) since the AI can't manage its settlements properly.

"And giving the AI lots of money should make it more likely we'll get generals changing sides - something that needs to be in the game."

You could also give generals some -loyalty traits and diplomats some +bribe traits, as well as increased stats for AI diplomats.

"what sort of things do you like to do with mods ?"

Take a look at the list of changes I've made in my submods for TLK and BC. I like to make things...better. More realistic and logical. Realism and logic are cool. For Tsardoms, I'm doing the unit stats.

What will be the start and end times of the mod and the timescale?

[Live2sculpt]

In that case, you should definitely put in officers for every unit, that way the general will not be in the front line and die first. So we will have dismounted generals only? With the occasional rare mounted knight unit and a little more common light cavalry?

As Roz has correctly pointed out earlier, though being dismounted was the common preference, some historic people were more likely mounted during a battle. So mounted bodyguard will probably be assigned to certain named individuals, while the rest and later generated generals will be default as Foot Units. Effectively Badass Men-at-Arms Companies, bolstering the ranks and punching through.

What will be the start and end times of the mod and the timescale?

Well... The ALPHA will probably be 4 Turns-per-Year with Seasons. But much earlier in development we have discussed this, "English finally lost Gascony in 1453 making it the ideal date to start the game (as the makers of Kingmaker also decided.) Probably finish in 1488 - making it 35 years @ 12 TPY = 420 turns - which looks reasonable.".

Our BETA map size was designed to allow realistic marching distances according to those earlier numbers. For my part, I hope we can still do that. As I already perfected the map for it, and I already created the 12tpy Seasons script and associated Season Event popups.

[Used2BRoz]

For the alpha builds I'm expecting much of a problem with the AI going bankrupt.
There's a simple economic boost in the campaign script to pump more money in if it the AI goes below a certain amount.
Extra money can be generated in other ways, including giving additional bonuses in the EDB.
We can play with upkeep for units, maybe allowing more free upkeep in settlements and forts, adding more free upkeep units in the EDB.
I can also bring in my destroy units scrpit to demobilise mercenary units as defined in the EDU.

I'm not in favour of carl's tax man script simply because I think reducing all building costs for the AI removes its ability to prioritise building.
You make essential buildings cheaper and luxuries more expensive.

The other thing with the alpha builds, is that it is unlikely that any faction will get to more than 20 settlements, maybe top out at 10 settlements, and with increased building times, it will reduce the number of buildings likely to be started in any one turn. We shall see if there's any further balancing to be done.

As of the latest version, all english knights are removed from the descr_strat to be replaced with Late NE Bodyguards. There's already a large number of family members for the england faction, with many children due to add to the numbers in the pipeline. My worry is the lack of children who will be born later in the game. Lancaster is boosted by the inclusion of the Beauforts and Tudors, but are vulnerable to a quick attack. York has three sons and the opportunity for a fourth. The Neville's have three generations, and opportunities for more. The scots I haven't touched yet. and the norwegians are there. well there was no point in removing them.

[Live2sculpt]

As of the latest version, all english knights are removed from the descr_strat to be replaced with Late NE Bodyguards. There's already a large number of family members for the england faction, with many children due to add to the numbers in the pipeline. My worry is the lack of children who will be born later in the game. Lancaster is boosted by the inclusion of the Beauforts and Tudors, but are vulnerable to a quick attack. York has three sons and the opportunity for a fourth. The Neville's have three generations, and opportunities for more. The scots I haven't touched yet. and the norwegians are there. well there was no point in removing them.

Do you want to use a mod to add more marriageable daughters to the mix? It would be nice to see more ladies on the Strat Map.

[k/t]

Women belong in the kitchen, not on the strat map.

"reducing all building costs for the AI removes its ability to prioritise building."

Is the AI even capable of that?

You could give the AI a partial discount on building costs, so the ratios between building costs are maintained but the costs are lowered across the board.