Blood & Roses; A Campaign Mod for the War of the Roses Era

[Live2sculpt]

Until all that is sorted out L2S can't do his graphics work. So I'm thinking of starting another WiP thread for work on the pre-cursor mod, one where all that can be sorted out without distracting work here. The thread can also be a scratch-pad for all sorts of modding ideas, information on modding tools, and will be ideal for those new to modding who want to work on a mod without feeling committed to working on something large scale as the full Blood and Roses project needs to be. I'm hopeful that the pre-cursor will eventually generate a lot of work that can be transfered directly into Blood and Roses.

I don't think a separate thread will be required. It'll be a simple matter of prefixing any input/submission/suggestion here with whether it is meant for ALPHA or BETA. As for the art, I'll just do according to the BETA expectations, and plonk what art I have made onto Alpha wherever it fits as we go along. I just need to be sure of my BETA plans to know my labor isn't wasted. So it's the BETA units list that I'll be after.

When I look at this latest list, all I think about is which troop types will eventually be combined, which will be replaced/renamed, and what art I should provide for that summary list for BETA. I imagine the selection for the final version being even more narrow and simplified than this one.

But when Alpha 0.2 is in my hands, I will only apply my art over these troop choices as appropriate, and possibly rename them to better match the scenario.

Let us keep all of the active/update dialogue for B&R focused on this one thread, and when ALPHA is launch-able, we can apply for a Hosted Mod forum.

For now, I think your Alpha work is a required step to ensure against bugs and for you to get warmed up to the guts work needed. Trying to build everything for the Beta all at once would be foolish, so Alpha must be done as you are doing it.

[Used2BRoz]

Ok - No problem with that.

I'm currently :
working on the descr_strat to bump up the settlements, update the units, remove obsolete units.
I've updated the events file so that it starts with either things already past = 0 date, or pushed well into the future -
after the printing press is invented, the next item is 200+plus years ahead. (800 turns);
working on the EDB to remove unwanted units and buildings (without totally eliminating them) (to avoid having to go through the traits and triggers for them.)
I've got a working list of Offices, ancillaries, and titles that need to go in for the english factions - but nothing for scotland or the other european factions.
The campaign script has been substantially reduced. I need to take out the barons_alliance emergence.
(I'd like to use the crusade script in an amended form to simulate Henry VI going mental walk-abouts.)
The mercs file has been updated and looks OK - but other slave units could be easily added if necessary.
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What I shall be working on next is :
re-assigning the settlements between the factions :
assigning Ireland to england but with a high "heretic" % so it will rebel if not looked after.
assigning Isle of man to England
Dividing Wales between Lancaster (old wales) and York (old ireland) and Nevill (old barons alliance) and assigning some current england settlements to them as well.
I also need to get the names sorted out
The EDB has some buildings that need re-purposing :
bimaristan can become a hospital and re-allocating to northern_european factions
the printing press and military academy and admiralty can be made available for all the northern_European factions.
(perhaps just in capitals - as hidden_resource)
The alchemist's lab line can be a proper School, academy, university line of buildings.
The racing tracks can be re-reworked to provide something useful.
And I can then work in the existing buildings I have made before. (The Government buildings, 2 new guilds, 2 diplomat schools)
(And remove the assassins, thiefs and theologians guilds)
There's a lot of stuff in there that relates to factions which won't appear so they can be removed.
Once that's done we can see what else is missing.
Character Traits - there's chunks of this that can be removed - all the hates and fears stuff, things to do with crusades and jihads etc.
Ancillaries - the magic, relics and people can all be removed.

That's my work planned for the next couple of weeks.
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Update:
(Regarding Real Combat - it will be OK to cut and paste the Real Combat values from Stainless Steel EDU into the Blood and Roses EDU for the those units both share - Nice little job for someone.) (thanks to k/t for spelling this out again )

Thanks to alpaca's strings.bin converter I've got the text files extracted from the strings.bin files in the text folder

[Deathchant]

i cant contribute in anyway i am afraid being completely unskilled at modding but i do want to say. Fantastic idea, great period of history and a very exciting project i will be keeping an eye on :-) You are all amazing

[Used2BRoz]

Quick progress report :
Have working names files with all the important names needed for the english factions. I'll leave the scottish ones for now.
(We can edit out unwanted ones further down the way, no need to touch them now.)
Further sorting out of unwanted units from EDB, descr_strat.
Made a start with transfering ownership of settlements - I'm going to remove Norway as a playable faction because, basically, having tried to play it, it goes bankrupt on turn 2 and stays that way and gets swamped by scotland and england. It won't be in the full Blood and Roses anyway, so no loss. But will keep it in the descr_strat etc for now, removing it will take too long and achieve little of consequence.
Done some editing of the character traits file to remove the problems flagged in the system log errors. (editing out the triggers rather than the traits)
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As you'll notice I work in a haphazard way, playing through a few turns of the changes each time to see if they have stuck and if there's any errors.
And doing too much at one time can make sorting problems out very difficult, so I do a few each time and see how they look. Doing one change often flags up others that I need to do. So I make a note of them and start work soon after before I forget what i need to do.
I'm also checking Mod Workshop for information.
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According to frogbeastegg's guide you spread cultural influence by:
adjacency - some influence seeps across your borders - both ways.
spies in settlements
and when you own them by
having a governor with high management value
building cultural conversion buildings. (suggests each faction could have its own specific cultural conversion building - just an idea)
(Some thinking needed - we need to work out what the starting values for the cultural influence is for each faction at the start of the game.)

[Live2sculpt]

(Some thinking needed - we need to work out what the starting values for the cultural influence is for each faction at the start of the game.)

LOL I haven't the foggiest idea. I'm just ironing out the UI components, organizing sounds, and coordinating possible model-work talent volunteers as they come in. I have the easy job.

All I can say is that I think that perhaps ALL of the agents in B&R should get new names, new background, new skins, modified voices, and swapped animations.

[k/t]

"Thanks for the guide to Real Combat - did anyone ever apply it to the vanilla Kingdoms files ?"

I don't know. I doubt it.

You can also import mounted and dismounted Men At Arms from SS. Those would be good units to include. All the units for your mod are already made, and you've got their stats, BMDB entries and animations as well. King Kong gave a generous permission for the use of his work on TA, so I imagine he wouldn't mind if you borrowed from SS. Gracul and Caesar Clivus seem to have gone underground, but you can drop them a line and see if they respond.

"we need to work out what the starting values for the cultural influence is for each faction at the start of the game"

Maybe you can find a historian in the DOTS or WOTW forums who can help with that.

Who's the female general you want to make appear? Henry 6's wife?

Will the mod have 199 regions? I hope so. I'd like a huge map with tons of settlements. With such a detailed map, castles can actually be represented by castles.

[Used2BRoz]

Well I suspect I may the nearest we've got to a historian in the group - I have about a dozen books on the topic, and studied late medieval / early modern English history as part of my degree course many years ago. But the sort of information regarding how much influence each of the factions would have is pretty difficult to find, if it exists. There were no opinion polls in those days. The nearest would be to see who supported which faction in Parliament. Luckily I have a 2 volume history of parliament for the period which gives the allegiances of the MPs in each parliament, and short biographies of many of them. Information on more important folk can be found in the multi-volume Dictionary of National Biography. Copies of which can be found in most major reference libraries, and some main allow online searching for free. Just need to see if that can be mapped in a meaningful way on to the map.

The question of who should be represented regarding females is interesting. Some readings of the period suggest that the men involved were pawns in the women's power games. Certainly one would like to include Margaret of Anjou, Jacquetta of Luxembourg, Cecily Neville, Margaret Beaufort, Elizabeth Woodville, Anne and Isabella Neville, Elizabeth of York and others.They all played some role in the conflicts, yet the game treats women primarily as diplomatic pieces, and necessary parts of family trees. It would be interesting to have Margaret of Anjou appear on the map when Henry VI is "off-map" (ie having one of his mental meltdowns.) Dunno if the campaign map allows for alternate models for characters (Margaret will function as Henry.)

[Yayattasa]

All the units for your mod are already made, and you've got their stats, BMDB entries and animations as well.

I second this

Will the mod have 199 regions? I hope so. I'd like a huge map with tons of settlements. With such a detailed map, castles can actually be represented by castles.

And this too

This mod has a lot of potential. Just make the obvious shortcut and ask for the use of an entire units set

[Live2sculpt]

You can also import mounted and dismounted Men At Arms from SS. Those would be good units to include. All the units for your mod are already made, and you've got their stats, BMDB entries and animations as well. King Kong gave a generous permission for the use of his work on TA, so I imagine he wouldn't mind if you borrowed from SS. Gracul and Caesar Clivus seem to have gone underground, but you can drop them a line and see if they respond.

VERY interesting! As a DLV modder myself, I was totally unaware of these things... Please tell me more ASAP before I go much further with assigning new modelling tasks to other volunteers.

Who's the female general you want to make appear? Henry 6's wife?

Will the mod have 199 regions? I hope so. I'd like a huge map with tons of settlements. With such a detailed map, castles can actually be represented by castles.

Yes, the final map is pretty awesome! It also has navigable rivers throughout. As an artist, a lover of maps, and an anglophile, I took some pains to make it recognizable. It's only 260 by 260 though. Not maxed out. It turned out 260 x 260 was the best for functionality. AND that 260 x 260 is almost 1-1 scale anyway ( If you take into account the size of the battle maps). There will also be a wonderful plethora of smaller town and villages across the country as well as castles. A large map is pretty pointless if it's just a flat expanse of nothing.

All this, but it must wait until the Beta release. Roz is currently building the initial tables using the Britannia Map.

[Live2sculpt]

The question of who should be represented regarding females is interesting. Some readings of the period suggest that the men involved were pawns in the women's power games. Certainly one would like to include Margaret of Anjou, Jacquetta of Luxembourg, Cecily Neville, Margaret Beaufort, Elizabeth Woodville, Anne and Isabella Neville, Elizabeth of York and others.They all played some role in the conflicts, yet the game treats women primarily as diplomatic pieces, and necessary parts of family trees. It would be interesting to have Margaret of Anjou appear on the map when Henry VI is "off-map" (ie having one of his mental meltdowns.) Dunno if the campaign map allows for alternate models for characters (Margaret will function as Henry.)

It's all perfectly doable, but you'd have to abandon the Family Tree function entirely to do it. You just plonk all of the named people onto the map at the start, and then event trigger later ones to spawn as the game progresses. If the family dynamic is frozen, then historical naming and model assignments can be done unhindered. And any woman model could be custom made to represent the 'king' of a faction. The only loose end would be the General's Speech at the start of any battle. But I think I know a way to work around that as well.

From a design perspective, focused on emulating as much of the Kingmaker board game as possible, I'd prefer to do this.

But your interest in preserving fun vanilla functions such as Family Trees would be MOST understandable.



This above approach ties closely to my other suggested possibility of limiting the total number of troops for the whole game. By our simplifying the B&R Mod unit types selection to Shogun TW levels (bow, spear, horse), M2TW would allow us plenty of room to dedicate 'duplicates' (with optional regionalized alterations such as livery colors, custom name, and slight stat changes) to each specific Settlement and for those specific units max recruitment number to be capped. I'm fairly certain that this limitation can be forced onto the AI equally. Approached in an organized manner, the Beta can end up with a very varied looking battlefield, where each side might field 'bowmen' 'billmen' and 'men at arms' with titles, liveries, and banners from different places. Unit descriptions can even make mention of other historic individuals 'leading' them, thus multiplying the historical references in the battle.

But of course, most important to the FUNCTION of B&R, this strategy would restrict outrageous AI stacks and steamrollings, and preserve a more 'historical' feel to the campaign. And again, keep close to the flavor of the Kingmaker Board Game, where possession of a noble and/or a town directly equaled more troops with which to fight with.

(Touching on The labor for implementing such unit duplication and variation; I'd be perfectly able and willing to expand the EDU, and to photoshop the skins, etc. to make that happen. That is something I know how to do.)

[Used2BRoz]

Hmm interesting - but one of the fun things about total war is you never know how it will turn out. A well-balanced game should be capable of generating many outcomes. If you start spawning people at the right times it presupposes their family is still around to produce them and bring them up. That would only work if we split the game up into 4 or 5 min-campaigns, each with a time-scale of a year perhaps, then you could generate the right people at the right time. But in a game which covers 50 years, there would be no way of having historical people at the right time - the aim isn't to replicate actual events but give players a chance to see what happens when they take charge of a faction inside the sandbox environment, which is based on the historical framework. One could do historical battles of course, that could be interesting.

Anyway that's much further down the line, I'm still trying to knock the map into shape and seeing if the factions of Lancaster, York and Neville can be viable and playable. I can put PSFs where we want castles of certain famous people. But I'll stick to using the default vanilla forst for now, otherwise it's a much bigger download.

[Live2sculpt]

A well-balanced game should be capable of generating many outcomes. If you start spawning people at the right times it presupposes their family is still around to produce them and bring them up. That would only work if we split the game up into 4 or 5 min-campaigns, each with a time-scale of a year perhaps, then you could generate the right people at the right time. But in a game which covers 50 years, there would be no way of having historical people at the right time - the aim isn't to replicate actual events but give players a chance to see what happens when they take charge of a faction inside the sandbox environment, which is based on the historical framework.

Yes. I'm a huge advocate of sandbox facilitation and loathe excessive scripting myself. I only suggested fixed characters and family trees for this particular scenario because so many of the personalities involved were already born by the beginning of the WotR. Such that even if a particular character should be killed, it is plausible that their historical offspring would be alive and simply yet to come of age. I came to understand that very well while researching the life story of all the people who's heraldry I included in this set:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

My hope was to be able to implement most of these in the mod, and the fixed characters approach was the simplest way to do that. This and I couldn't begin to imagine how long it would take to transcribe all of the family trees among these characters into the descr_strat. I studied long hours to cull that selection down, and I remember tracing those heritages as an endless spiral best avoided.

Of course, if you are skilled at Family Tree building, then these same named youths I'm referring to could be already set and awaiting in their respective family trees for their coming of age (you may even want to cheat by a few years for those historically born anytime before 1460, to get them into play as well). At the least, I'd recommend an innovative and influential use of Ancillaries to represent those IMPORTANT women same as done to represent the royals and the bishops.

I guess the subtext of my whole fixed characters concept/approach is THIS; That as enthralling and compellingly fun as Medieval Dynasty Building can be (I'm having a blast with it in my current DLV campaign) such Dynasty Building was NOT really a serious part of the brief period in the WotR. In fact, on the whole, it was the OPPOSITE. Were that not the case, the political situation of the Tudors at Bosworth and the utter END of the Plantagenets could not have occurred. I know that is an oversimplification, and that there were furtive attempts made along the way, but on the whole I think a civil feud lasting only a generation or so makes for a poor match to a Dynasty Building feature.

[Used2BRoz]

Quick update : Now have the Neville familly (as one faction) (all 23 of them) on the map - they have 3 regions - and go and attack scotland and england as soon as they possibly can.
I've added alpaca's 4 season script to the campaign script.
Still hacking away at the EDB - now removing more redundant units, and reducing recruitment allowances and lengthening the recruitment time, and changing the religion requirement.
Long way to go with that - it'll need totally reworking once the units are sorted out anyway.
Sorted out all the character trait problems that are flagged up on start up.

We may need to have a good look at the victory conditions for the factions, and the campaign AI
Played several battles - the vanilla BAI is quite good, much better than the Rome II TW BAI.

Now I need to sort out the York and lancaster start positions and then I might release the first alpha - so you can see progress so far.
I'll put some of the other noble families on the map too - if only in stone forts as there are not enough regions for them all - and we need a solid "england" faction too.

(Don't expect anything like what Blood and roses is intended to be - just a rough and ready mod using existing components for now.)

[Live2sculpt]

I'll put some of the other noble families on the map too - if only in stone forts as there are not enough regions for them all -

Did you ever learn any tricks to get AI to move in and out of Stone Forts? I never had.

[Used2BRoz]

Nah - the AI is too clever to stay inside a fort when it could be out conquering the world

The AI will use forts when it looks like a good defensive position or rally point, or wants to bring its forces together for an attack.
Otherwise why bother with them. The game will start in something like the historical position and from there anything can happen.

Been playing with the Yorks - only 5 of them so no big problem with the family tree.
The game is fun, but I need to research what land holdings The Duke of York had in Ireland next - I seem to remember he had some.
Other than that it seems Ireland was quiet for most of the 15th century, so we could give it all to england - and let them try and maintain order
I watched as several times they tried to recapture Dublin after rebels took it - so the game will do that without prompting.
(I had an entire army rebel whilst besieging it, which meant the garrison was very strong

Growth rate for settlements is way too fast - that will need sorting out in settlement mechanics.

[Live2sculpt]

The game is fun, but I need to research what land holdings The Duke of York had in Ireland next - I seem to remember he had some.
Other than that it seems Ireland was quiet for most of the 15th century, so we could give it all to england - and let them try and maintain order
I watched as several times they tried to recapture Dublin after rebels took it - so the game will do that without prompting.

I did 4 days reading on Ireland when researching for B&R before, and found a selection of families worth adding in. Their heraldry included in the list above. England did not seem to have direct control beyond the Pale, and I deduced the Irish as viable a faction as Scotland France and Burgundy during that time, though weak. If you want to leave the Irish as a non-player Rebel faction, that could be appropriate and free up a faction slot. But that would cut off potential trade dynamics that could prove useful for the games economic functions. An issue worth considering on a map that isolates England from the continent quite a bit, during a period where inter-county trade was less valuable, and international trade had stepped into high gear.

Incidentally, I also devised some alternative trade route ideas for the BETA map, such as two wealthy trade factions hidden on the edges of the map, one for 'Lisbon', the other to 'Danzig'. Or just make them both the same faction and call them the 'Hanseatic League'? Dunno, but some continental trade really aught to be represented IMO.

[Used2BRoz]

Hmm York was Lord Lieutenant of Ireland until summer of 1453, when he lost it.

He was also Earl of Ulster

The other two factions - the Butlers (who supported Lancaster) and became Lord lieutenant after York) and Fitzgeralds (who supported York) can easily go on the alpha map as generals for the respective factions. anywhere not covered by them can be rebel.

Here's a map from wikipedia no idea from where or by whom, but it looks a reasonable approximation :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ireland_1450.png



For the alpha game, using the vanilla map, from which we can give Dublin and Trim to England, Downpatrick to York, Cork to Fitzgerald ((ie York); and Tipperary to Butler (Earl of Ormond)(ie Lancaster), the rest can be held by the slave faction. Again an approximation, nothing more.
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Q: Why is it so difficult to find anything in Mod workshop ? I know there's something for underage faction heirs but using search I can't find it.
Am I correct in thinking it only goes back 1 year ? Luckily we have google which indexes everything :
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...Heir-or-Leader

Q: Names verifier - the link I found was broken but google finds this :
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/downl...o=file&id=3493

Hmm- why not just scrap the search function and let google do it ?

[Live2sculpt]

Hmm- why not just scrap the search function and let google do it ?

Yes, I've observed a phenomenally poor search functionality from this new build Squid and GeD put together. I appreciate their effort in maintaining competitive security measures etc., but their selection is woefully flawed in this regard.

[Used2BRoz]

Still chugging away (technical term )
Have allocated all the regions as I want them - impossible to replicate the real division of land but it will have to do.

Played a few games just to see what works (and what doesn't.)
Had a few fun battles - the skies and grass look OK - better than I remember.
The battle AI is Ok - but the AI needs to learn to use its missile troops when doing a siege attack.
Germanicus5 BAI is among the best - I may try and incorporate it.

However I seem to get to turn 20 -30 and then get a CTD - the trace still isn't showing any reason for it.

I wondering if there are any known Bugs in the Kingdoms 1.05 / British isles campaign that need sorting out ?

Lots of stuff to change around still before i release anything.
I'll see if I can add some buildings next ;
also mess around with the settlement mechanics to slow down growth

As for the campaign AI I don't know if anyone has written anything that we can use for this campaign.

I've made quite a lot of changes to recruitment times and availability - but not costs.
Last battle I had I was facing an england army that had a very good composition, about 6 longbowmen, 4 billmen, a heavy billmen, a dismounted english knights and a generals bodyguard. They tried to assault a castle I was defending with 2 welsh spears, 2 billmen, 2 welsh archers, Generals bodyguard.
The english got nowhere and ran away very quickly. Might need to look at morale issues.
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Hanseatic league - well I have a Hanseatic league office building - need capital hidden_resource but anyone can build it. It can give a big boost to trade income. Capitals in alpha game will be London, York, Edinburgh and Dublin. Capitals will also be able to have : Parliament, Chancellory, Treasury and law courts buildings. more to come.

[Live2sculpt]

Still chugging away (technical term )
As for the campaign AI I don't know if anyone has written anything that we can use for this campaign.

As a DLV player I swear by the performance of the AI modifications in there. Very dynamic strategy AI that keeps me on my toes, and challenging BAI that frequently outwits me, without pathetic suicide charges or other nonsense. I esp prefer the manner DLV HtH collides and 'piles in'. SS battle performance had too many troops hanging back compared to DLV, and its cavalry charges were also lackluster.

I'd suggest you weed out that CTD before moving on to other changes.

On my end, prepping the original art phase, and setting up the custom sounds file. I've had a couple of offers to get modelling done for us, but haven't received anything yet. I will upload the custom art once I've inked it.

Incidentally, and this is probably BETA concerns, what do you think of using some of these badges above units in battle, rather than fluttering flags?