Do Any Good Mods Use Ice Torque's WarMap?

[cherryfunk]

I thought I was about played out on RTW until I downloaded Ice Torque's WarMap yesterday (I'm using WarMap III v1.0, the most recent I could find). The expanded map completely changes the gameplay and I love this new scale. It feels far more realistic than the old scale.

However, the modding that Ice Torque did for the map feels incomplete -- no mercenaries, some typos in the unit names, unimaginative starting positions, etc. -- so I'm wondering if any other modder has used this map to create a more solid/complete mod for the game?

I love this map so much I want to play it to death, but I need a better mod for it!

[tone]

Try BareBonesWars 8.0 - way better than its name suggests. Good skins, good skies, very few walls, good battle AI. Go for the unified Rome game (if you're playing Rome) on the barebone map - that's the large IceTorque. Have just found this mod and it's great.

[IceTorque]

I thought I was about played out on RTW until I downloaded Ice Torque's WarMap yesterday (I'm using WarMap III v1.0, the most recent I could find). The expanded map completely changes the gameplay and I love this new scale. It feels far more realistic than the old scale.

However, the modding that Ice Torque did for the map feels incomplete -- no mercenaries, some typos in the unit names, unimaginative starting positions, etc. -- so I'm wondering if any other modder has used this map to create a more solid/complete mod for the game?

I love this map so much I want to play it to death, but I need a better mod for it!

Many mods use WarMap I as a base, The closest you'll get to WarMap III with new skins etc is
Rios 463 IBFD mod.

As for your comments on III. The no-mercs is a feature that allows the AI to bring consistently full strength armies to most battles, unimaginative starting positions, what would you suggest ? swap briton and egypt around maybe ? or a unified Rome ? nah the Roman civil war is an integral part of the game, for me anyways. I did'nt include new skins because I play battles at max zoom, so all I see is sprites. Unit typo's well gee, which one(s) ? more solid/complete mod, III is set up to how I like the game, with the emphasis on gameplay not realism or eye candy. i.e. consistently challenging battles, not too many battles nor too few, less sieges etc. Basically I have tried to eliminate the negatives and accentuate the positives in the RTW game engine, on the strat map and the battle maps.

Of course how I prefer the game is not to everyone's taste, and is why anyone/everyone is allowed to use WarMap tga's for any public mod. Why not create your very own unique mod and share it with us all.

[AlbinoPickleX]

What do you like about the map so much? And how would you define a good mod? All mods are good in their own aspects. Just some more than others.

[cherryfunk]

Try BareBonesWars 8.0

Thanks for the suggestion, I've tried it out and it's a big step up from WarMap III. A couple of things are bugging me about it -- it seems to use an earlier version of WarMap -- the coastlines are all squared off, rather than natural looking. Also I don't like the no walls rule (makes no sense historically). And some of the text is riddled with grammatical errors, mispellings etc.

Ice Torque: thanks for responding! You've really crafted a gorgeous map and despite my nit-picks, I've got to hand it to you, you're the best map-maker I've seen working with this game. I love how you created the mountains, especially the larger ranges like the Alps -- first time I've seen a realistic depiction, and it adds so much to the gameplay when it looks like you're playing on the actual terrain!

As for your comments on III. The no-mercs is a feature that allows the AI to bring consistently full strength armies to most battles

Well, it also prevents you from hiring mercs, which is not only a crucial element in long expeditions away from your cities, but was also historically a huge factor, so I would much prefer to have the mercs in.

unimaginative starting positions, what would you suggest ? swap briton and egypt around maybe

No, I mean in a more tactical sense, you have some factions where every city has exactly the same unit mix (2 light inf., 2 cav), and no generals outside any cities, and no spies or diplomats -- it feels like you didn't give any thought to how that faction should be set up for the player to dive right in and start having fun. I think each city should have a slightly different mix, and each faction should have at least one stack with a general outside the cities, plus at least one spy and one diplomat -- look at the way the factions start in the vanilla game. They're fun to pick up and play immediately.

Unit typo's well gee, which one(s) ?

Well for example 'swordsmen' with a lower-case S, which just looks amateurish. Also some of your unit descriptions have bad grammatical errors, makes it harder for me to get into the game with these little mistakes. I realize you were focusing on the map, and I have to say your map is the best I've seen anywhere, but you might want to get someone to help with these little details, they give a mod a sense of polish and completeness.

Also, I think you could use a better mix of units, I played as the Dacians and they had very few units to work with. Personally, I think 'Swordsmen' is too vague a unit description, couldn't the name be a bit more historical and tailored to each faction?

more solid/complete mod, III is set up to how I like the game, with the emphasis on gameplay not realism or eye candy. i.e. consistently challenging battles, not too many battles nor too few, less sieges etc.

I agree with these points, that's also the game-play I like. But the minor glitches I note above give your mod an unpolished feel. Maybe I'm just being anal, but when I'm playing a mod, I don't like to be constantly reminded that I'm playing a mod, you know what I mean?

Why not create your very own unique mod and share it with us all.

I'm tempted, but I'm afraid that would open up a black hole that would suck the rest of my free time for months. I waste enough time playing other people's mods!

Albino:

What do you like about the map so much? And how would you define a good mod? All mods are good in their own aspects. Just some more than others.

Ice's map blows up the size of the vanilla map without changing the overall territory it covers, so it has the effect of 'zooming in' to the world, making everything bigger. For me this has the effect of immersing you more in the game world, but it also makes the game much more interesting strategically. Distances are much longer, so sending an invading army to a neighboring city becomes a real expedition that requires real planning and foresight. Battles are less frequent, and so become more important. In essence, the map raises the stakes -- one screw up can put your faction in serious trouble (as actually happened historically, remember the Huns were defanged by one major battle, etc.). Also, it's just a beautifully designed map, really a piece of art compared to most other RTW maps out there (including vanilla) -- Ice understands geography and knows how to best depict it.

I don't agree that all mods are good, some make major gameplay errors (for me, no-mercs is a big mistake because mercs are FUN) and some are so riddled with typos and poor craftmanship that they're unplayable. For example Goth's All Factions mod for BI has unit cards where the unit picture actually obscures the number telling you how many men are in that unit! It makes it such a pain to play the mod I quickly gave up on it. Little mistakes like that which you would think are obvious actually turn up in many mods.

[cherryfunk]

BTW, Ice Torque, I'm trying the Rios 463 IBFD mod and it seems very close to my ideal mod. However I think it's using an earlier version of your map, the coastlines seem very blocky. Don't you have a more recent map with smoothed-out coastlines?

It's kind of ironic, the mods for RTW/BI are reaching an amazing level just before MTW 2 comes out! BTW Ice, you should send your map to Creative Assembly and tell them to use it for a large-scale version of MTW 2. Seriously, it's twice as good as their maps. They need your talent!

[IceTorque]

it seems to use an earlier version of WarMap -- the coastlines are all squared off

Yes, WarMap I is the baby, II and III are the teens, You'll have to wait for the mother of all WarMap's to emerge when MTW II gets here, (she is a big momma too).

you're the best map-maker I've seen working with this game.

Thanks, but I'm sure many would disagree.

Well, it also prevents you from hiring mercs, which is not only a crucial element in long expeditions away from your cities, but was also historically a huge factor, so I would much prefer to have the mercs in.

The mod started off to show that with some simple game play tweaks RTW could be very challenging. With non-retrainable mercs far too many battles were far too easy as too many AI stacks consisted of too many half strength merc units, (consistently challenging battles). Mercs are easily re-enabled by removing the : in the descr_mercenaries txt.

No, I mean in a more tactical sense, you have some factions where every city has exactly the same unit mix

The only thing I tried to do with the start set up was to give all factions an equal start relative to their positions on the map, so that each campaign would be slightly different, this was very difficult as those factions that started from the maps edge always became dominant. Egyptian horde anyone ?

Well for example 'swordsmen' with a lower-case S, which just looks amateurish. Also some of your unit descriptions have bad grammatical errors, makes it harder for me to get into the game with these little mistakes.

Fair enuff.

Also, I think you could use a better mix of units, I played as the Dacians and they had very few units to work with.

Many people like a wide unit selection as CA have shown with their ever growing unit types, I do not, because I dislike sorting through a crowded recruitment que searching for the few units that I actually use. This also ensures the AI stacks consist of all tough guys that come to fight and NOT little units of Mary's that prefer to run away and turn what should be a close fight into a farce, (consistently challenging battles).

Personally, I think 'Swordsmen' is too vague a unit description, couldn't the name be a bit more historical and tailored to each faction?

Yes it could, but it was meant to be immediately recognizable. Nothing more nothing less.

But the minor glitches I note above give your mod an unpolished feel. Maybe I'm just being anal, but when I'm playing a mod, I don't like to be constantly reminded that I'm playing a mod, you know what I mean?

I know what ya mean, and your comments will be in the back of my mind when I am making my next mod for MTW II.

I'm tempted, but I'm afraid that would open up a black hole that would suck the rest of my free time for months. I waste enough time playing other people's mods!

Aint that the truth.

For me this has the effect of immersing you more in the game world, but it also makes the game much more interesting strategically. Distances are much longer, so sending an invading army to a neighboring city becomes a real expedition that requires real planning and foresight. Battles are less frequent, and so become more important. In essence, the map raises the stakes -- one screw up can put your faction in serious trouble (as actually happened historically, remember the Huns were defanged by one major battle, etc.).

That is what WarMap is all about.

BTW, Ice Torque, I'm trying the Rios 463 IBFD mod and it seems very close to my ideal mod. However I think it's using an earlier version of your map, the coastlines seem very blocky. Don't you have a more recent map with smoothed-out coastlines?

III is the latest, though I think the coastlines are pretty much the same as II which is what Rio is using.

It's kind of ironic, the mods for RTW/BI are reaching an amazing level just before MTW 2 comes out!

Yes, then we modders start doing it all over again.

BTW Ice, you should send your map to Creative Assembly and tell them to use it for a large-scale version of MTW 2. Seriously, it's twice as good as their maps. They need your talent!

Well again thanks, but WarMap's large scale only appeals to a small minority of TW gamers, and most certainly does not meet the most important design criteria of all, which is appealing to the masses, and they employ people with far more talent than I could ever hope to have. Also why would they pay me when I do it for free ?

Glad you like the map, thanks for trying the mod and taking the time to let me know what you think.

cheers

IceTorque

[cherryfunk]

The only thing I tried to do with the start set up was to give all factions an equal start relative to their positions on the map, so that each campaign would be slightly different, this was very difficult as those factions that started from the maps edge always became dominant.

Which is how it should be -- but as well as being balanced, each faction should have a slightly different starting disposition (maybe the capital has the strongest forces, or maybe the capital has the weakest, maybe there's a strong field army on the most threatened border, etc.). If I see that every city has exactly the same units in it when I start, it just makes me think that the modder got lazy and copy/pasted the starting troop dispositions.

Many people like a wide unit selection as CA have shown with their ever growing unit types, I do not, because I dislike sorting through a crowded recruitment que searching for the few units that I actually use.

I agree that some mods have way too many units, but I think you maybe took things a bit too far when you cut the unit list down. I like a mix of units in my armies, not just 1 sword, 1 spear, 1 archer, etc. For example you didn't give the Dacians any skirmishers at all. When all my armies consist of only 3 or 4 unit types, I get bored. I think most of us want at least SOME variety. I not asking for special obscure historical units like the Hipposwineapoliplia (Armenian horsemen equipped with flaming pigs, in case you didn't know), even the vanilla units would do to round out the collection you're using.

Well again thanks, but WarMap's large scale only appeals to a small minority of TW gamers, and most certainly does not meet the most important design criteria of all, which is appealing to the masses

Well I imagine the Roxolani faction appealed to a small minority, but they managed to find time to include them! I think one thing the modding community demonstrates is that we each like things a bit different, so the more options CA could include in the vanilla game, the more it will satisfy the players. Some of us like big huge maps, so there's no reason CA couldn't spend a little time and include various map sizes in the game. Further, it's hard to tell how you'll react to the giant map until you play it -- I wasn't sure it would work well, but now I much prefer it to the old size. If more people tried it, I bet it would increase in popularity. Aren't more and more mods starting to use it?

[fahrenheit]

[QUOTE=IceTorque]Yes, WarMap I is the baby, II and III are the teens, You'll have to wait for the mother of all WarMap's to emerge when MTW II gets here, (she is a big momma too).
That sounds great, I have been a big fan of the WarMaps and knowing one is coming out of M2TW (especially a larger one like you said) is exciting.

[Lopus]

Well, Ice Torque is doing these mods on his own, without pay. Personally, I say thanks. I think maybe you could try using other skins that you can find here cherry_picker. No insult intended.

[cherryfunk]

Lopus, are we not supposed to post feedback here? If not, then this community might as well vanish and let's just let the modders work in peace and isolation. I'm sure that will result in better mods.

[Lopus]

Sorry cherryfunk, what I meant to say is that Ice Torque was doing the mods the way he thinks best, while I do agree with some of your points earlier, I also agree with most of Ice Torque's points. It is his mod, we are free to comment, but try to remember, anyone else who mods his work, will do so to that person's personal preferences. If you want a mod that "fits" you best, then download all the mods you like, and try to mix and match files.