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[Teknokraatti]

Apani: Answering quite late and a little off-topic, but anyways. The knowledge I have is gathered from a great variety of sources, including history books, weapon reviews, metallurgic history, general interest in weapons and so on. Also sometimes educated guess based on so much facts that can be quite easily found, can be used. For example the mention of bastard sword being easier to use is based on several ideas and combinations of them. Perhaps most importantly is how the weapon would be handled and would behave. One very good technique, but challenging to pull through, is changing the direction of a strike while still expecting to land it effectively. It is quickly exhausting and even somewhat dangerous for the user to do so with a large weapon, and only gets larger when weapon grows in size and weight.

But to more present discussions. About slingshot compared to bow, I would easily say, that even a weak bow wins quite easily. Why? Because of the way the weapon is handled. In bow the energy used for shooting is stored in flexible spring-like arms, which can easily be modified to have either very low draw length or a tremendously high one. Slingshot can not use these methods. Slingshot stores the energy in materials that stretch horizontally rather than bend, which exhausts the draw material quickly or forces the slingshot to use absurdly strong materials, which could not possibly be used, like steel cable or some monstrous wire made of spider silk (Which is actually extremely strong material, as interesting as it is). A kokiri would not be able to draw such slingshot nor would the wood be able to stand the forces. I can not imagine a being roughly equal to an teenager using slingshot as a lethal weapon with long range. Maybe against birds or little mammals with distance being maximally some 30 meters.

As mentioned also before, a slingshot would not be a balanced weapon either. One fundamental problem slingshot has, is that the weapon causes a momentum against wrist, not a nearly straight force like with bows. That can only be somewhat compensated with additional accessories. Problem is, that the power caused by the draw is above the fist and pointed straight back. Thus the force gains momentum which tries to painfully turn the wrist upwards, as well as a potentially damaging shock when the shot is released. That problem does not exist with bow, because arrow is fired from the same level as the top of the wrist and as such creates very little momentum. The same problem also lowers slingshots accuracy significantly, because if draw is not straight, slingshot will turn in users hand and when released, it will "kick" forwards turning the projectile towards ground.


I would also like to comment something about wood as armor. Have you sometimes tried to cut fresh wood against the grains with axe? I have, it is surprisingly hard. Dried wood is still strong, but it is not very good armor, because armor absolutely must be quite thin to not significantly reduce flexibility and stamina. Wood is quite heavy and not very durable as dry, thin layers, so it is not wonder, that kokiri armors are not so amazing. Especially when remembering, that the kokiri are not exactly bodybuilders.
Instead the korok would be virtually immune to one-hand swords, which do not have very great momentum, and spears. It is very hard to pierce a healthy tree with, well, anything using only human strength. Axes, siege weapons, maces and similar weapons would be useful against the koroks though, when used sensibly. UndyingNephalim and you others are actually both right, but maybe not considering the wood as widely as you should.

And yet shortly to koroks military prowess: I myself think they would be very formidable. Human-sized beings virtually immune to daggers and swords, nearly tireless and very heavy. Just think being seriously hit by a log, then probably double it because of the fluids and other things that give living tree it's mass. The korok would be very powerful even against armored enemies because their attacks utilize blunt force trauma to begin with.

As before, my 5 cents. Should there be any practicers of archery, I would certainly like to hear your opinion.

[Avatar of the Ice Wolf]

Just because only so many animals are represented as units doesn't mean hyrule doesn't have other animals in it...

I am in agreement. It's still a forest, which naturally would have a wide variety of plant and animal species as well as a food chain.

[Apani]

Of course. I'm just wondering what could they be, but this is just trivia.

[Sir Aroun]

On the contrary the Kokiri are almost entirely carnivorous. This is a slight jab at the fact that the super forest loving elf race is always assumed to be vegetarian in almost every fantasy universe, despite the fact that it is completely hypocritical from a plant loving stand point. Plant lovers would not eat plants.

Wellll.... plants normally want you to eat their fruit because it helps spread their seeds, so plant lovers would eat fruits.

[fernavliz]

maybe the kokiri hunts rabbits? I don´t know. They are reference of rabbits in OOT and MM because of the masks (or rabbits ears mask), but I don´t remember seen one in these games. I guess it is just assumed that there are rabbits in the forest.

[Sir Aroun]

Apani: Answering quite late and a little off-topic, but anyways. The knowledge I have is gathered from a great variety of sources, including history books, weapon reviews, metallurgic history, general interest in weapons and so on. Also sometimes educated guess based on so much facts that can be quite easily found, can be used. For example the mention of bastard sword being easier to use is based on several ideas and combinations of them. Perhaps most importantly is how the weapon would be handled and would behave. One very good technique, but challenging to pull through, is changing the direction of a strike while still expecting to land it effectively. It is quickly exhausting and even somewhat dangerous for the user to do so with a large weapon, and only gets larger when weapon grows in size and weight.

But to more present discussions. About slingshot compared to bow, I would easily say, that even a weak bow wins quite easily. Why? Because of the way the weapon is handled. In bow the energy used for shooting is stored in flexible spring-like arms, which can easily be modified to have either very low draw length or a tremendously high one. Slingshot can not use these methods. Slingshot stores the energy in materials that stretch horizontally rather than bend, which exhausts the draw material quickly or forces the slingshot to use absurdly strong materials, which could not possibly be used, like steel cable or some monstrous wire made of spider silk (Which is actually extremely strong material, as interesting as it is). A kokiri would not be able to draw such slingshot nor would the wood be able to stand the forces. I can not imagine a being roughly equal to an teenager using slingshot as a lethal weapon with long range. Maybe against birds or little mammals with distance being maximally some 30 meters.

As mentioned also before, a slingshot would not be a balanced weapon either. One fundamental problem slingshot has, is that the weapon causes a momentum against wrist, not a nearly straight force like with bows. That can only be somewhat compensated with additional accessories. Problem is, that the power caused by the draw is above the fist and pointed straight back. Thus the force gains momentum which tries to painfully turn the wrist upwards, as well as a potentially damaging shock when the shot is released. That problem does not exist with bow, because arrow is fired from the same level as the top of the wrist and as such creates very little momentum. The same problem also lowers slingshots accuracy significantly, because if draw is not straight, slingshot will turn in users hand and when released, it will "kick" forwards turning the projectile towards ground.


I would also like to comment something about wood as armor. Have you sometimes tried to cut fresh wood against the grains with axe? I have, it is surprisingly hard. Dried wood is still strong, but it is not very good armor, because armor absolutely must be quite thin to not significantly reduce flexibility and stamina. Wood is quite heavy and not very durable as dry, thin layers, so it is not wonder, that kokiri armors are not so amazing. Especially when remembering, that the kokiri are not exactly bodybuilders.
Instead the korok would be virtually immune to one-hand swords, which do not have very great momentum, and spears. It is very hard to pierce a healthy tree with, well, anything using only human strength. Axes, siege weapons, maces and similar weapons would be useful against the koroks though, when used sensibly. UndyingNephalim and you others are actually both right, but maybe not considering the wood as widely as you should.

And yet shortly to koroks military prowess: I myself think they would be very formidable. Human-sized beings virtually immune to daggers and swords, nearly tireless and very heavy. Just think being seriously hit by a log, then probably double it because of the fluids and other things that give living tree it's mass. The korok would be very powerful even against armored enemies because their attacks utilize blunt force trauma to begin with.

As before, my 5 cents. Should there be any practicers of archery, I would certainly like to hear your opinion.

1) this is a game and based on LoZ. 2) Real Hunting Slingshots have a wrist brace. 3) slingshots are smaller, easier to carry, lighter, and do not have to be unstrung. 4) Something else to keep in mind is that these are not IRL slingshots, their deku seed ammo already gives then a big buff and we have no idea what the band is made of.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Sir Aroun]

Mmm, I had given +1 Defense, +0.05 x-radius and +1 Against Horses for the stick, thought I might reconsider the defense. In OoT, a Deku Stick is supposed to do twice as damage as a Kokiri Sword, but it's safe to say this idea is ridicolous realism-wise. Since I brought sticks up, how would Monkeys perform with them instead?

Not really, the stick could be harder then some metals as it is not normal wood. It would be blunt however so treat them like long iron maces.

[Apani]

But they're just sticks, for God's sake; if we have to go by the game, then in OoT they even break at the first swing. As for the slingshot, it wasn't really that strong in OoT either, in fact I added them a stun effects as if they were firing Deku Nuts (they're supposed to fire seeds) out of mercy; I also gave them a range of 55 (Half of a Short Bow, the same as a Javelin) and just 1 of attack. They have no AP, but they can still do fairly well against armoured opponents (which are very rare anyways). Still, consider they are meant to be a hunting (or dungeon-crawling, in Link's case) weapn and not useful in an open battlefied.

[Zalanum]

So kokiri are actually hyper carnivorousness now I know why Okakusha called them forest demons in her description...
And I believe Koroks being made of wood would be pretty hard to kill being made of wood as Teknokraatti said blades don't do much on trees.

[Saria's Vanguard]

But they're just sticks, for God's sake; if we have to go by the game, then in OoT they even break at the first swing.

I believe they also hit as hard as the master sword in OOT despite breaking upon impact

[Sir Aroun]

I believe they also hit as hard as the master sword in OOT despite breaking upon impact

So? A glass sword cut deaper then a metal but break after on use. So it would be realistic.

But they're just sticks, for God's sake; if we have to go by the game, then in OoT they even break at the first swing.

So what?! You really understatement how deadly a really heavy, dense, stick can be (after all it is made of the same stuff dekus are made of). Just treat them like weak maces.

[Teknokraatti]

So? A glass sword cut deaper then a metal but break after on use. So it would be realistic.


So what?! You really understatement how deadly a really heavy, dense, stick can be (after all it is made of the same stuff dekus are made of). Just treat them like weak maces.

Sir Aroun, I have to be of different opinion with that glass sword idea. Significant stress variations happen during a cut too, and I seriously doubt, that glass sword would be durable enough to actually cut through large muscles. A sword made of glass would also be thicker than metal sword just to be able to support it's on weight when held horizontally, which automatically makes it worse in cutting, as blade can not be as sharp. Additionally glass would not stand the stress of cutting bone, something steel is capable to do. Not that it would be easy, far from it.


That said, I support your idea of deku sticks. It would not make sense to bring half-rotten sticks that snap from one strike, to battlefield. I myself like to consider them as something like a quarterstaff. It was made of heavy and durable wood like oak and had very developed techniques, some of which were also used with halberds and spears. A hardwood quarterstaff would be quite a formidable weapon, albeit pretty heavy. (Like demonstrated by quite widely known shaolin monks of the day.) The deku sticks used by the kokiri must however be a bit lighter, because the kokiri are not too strong, and something like balsa tree could be used. I would also class such staffs as sort of weak mace.

[Sir Aroun]

Sir Aroun, I have to be of different opinion with that glass sword idea. Significant stress variations happen during a cut too, and I seriously doubt, that glass sword would be durable enough to actually cut through large muscles. A sword made of glass would also be thicker than metal sword just to be able to support it's on weight when held horizontally, which automatically makes it worse in cutting, as blade can not be as sharp. Additionally glass would not stand the stress of cutting bone, something steel is capable to do. Not that it would be easy, far from it.

I think you missed the point, but ok.

That said, I support your idea of deku sticks. It would not make sense to bring half-rotten sticks that snap from one strike, to battlefield. I myself like to consider them as something like a quarterstaff. It was made of heavy and durable wood like oak and had very developed techniques, some of which were also used with halberds and spears. A hardwood quarterstaff would be quite a formidable weapon, albeit pretty heavy. (Like demonstrated by quite widely known shaolin monks of the day.) The deku sticks used by the kokiri must however be a bit lighter, because the kokiri are not too strong, and something like balsa tree could be used. I would also class such staffs as sort of weak mace.

yes. also I think kokiri are stronger then people think. As well just to be clear, deku sticks are made of deku baba wood. What the properties of deku baba wood is we have no clue.

[Apani]

That said, I support your idea of deku sticks. It would not make sense to bring half-rotten sticks that snap from one strike, to battlefield. I myself like to consider them as something like a quarterstaff. It was made of heavy and durable wood like oak and had very developed techniques, some of which were also used with halberds and spears. A hardwood quarterstaff would be quite a formidable weapon, albeit pretty heavy. (Like demonstrated by quite widely known shaolin monks of the day.) The deku sticks used by the kokiri must however be a bit lighter, because the kokiri are not too strong, and something like balsa tree could be used. I would also class such staffs as sort of weak mace.

Have you seen them?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

(consider they're also wielding a Kokiri Sword in the other hand, not shown in the pic)
It is actually possible for them to be carrying sticks just picked off the ground, considering that those are just bands of volunteered explorers, and terribly unprofessional at that; also, we know they are well supplied, so they could afford to lose many.
That said, I doubt they would perform on par with quarterstaves either as they're wielded with just one hand and, barring Kokiri masterwork craftmanship, they look very crude. Also, to be maces they require a head to deliver blows, so I'd classify them as clubs instead.

yes. also I think kokiri are stronger then people think. As well just to be clear, deku sticks are made of deku baba wood. What the properties of deku baba wood is we have no clue.

Yes, they're strong - in numbers and logistics, but the game itself states they aren't phisically strong:

Strengths, Weaknesses, and Abilities:
- Numerous: The Kokiri are large in number and can assemble much larger armies then most empires.
- Quality Logistics: The Kokiri are notable for supplying their troops with superior field rations and equipment. As such they can travel longer distances before tiring.
- Small and Frail: Kokiri are physically small and weak, and as such are horrible combatants and run in fear much faster then most other races.

As for the origins of those sticks, they are dropped by Deku Babas, presumably as their roots; althought a shop keeper in OoT says that they are branches of the great Deku Tree. I have no idea how idea if a root can even be turned into a stick, or how good it would be; a branch from the Great Deku Tree, if we want to believe that claim, could actually be durable and "strong", but the game gives off the idea of glass-cannon properties as they strike as hard as the master sword but break in one use, which are both fairly unrealistical.

My guessing is that they just use them as walking sticks, to repel horses and to have a somewhat longer reach. Sometimes a stick is just a stick.

[Sir Aroun]

Have you seen them?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

(consider they're also wielding a Kokiri Sword in the other hand, not shown in the pic)
It is actually possible for them to be carrying sticks just picked off the ground, considering that those are just bands of volunteered explorers, and terribly unprofessional at that; also, we know they are well supplied, so they could afford to lose many.
That said, I doubt they would perform on par with quarterstaves either as they're wielded with just one hand and, barring Kokiri masterwork craftmanship, they look very crude. Also, to be maces they require a head to deliver blows, so I'd classify them as clubs instead.



Yes, they're strong - in numbers and logistics, but the game itself states they aren't phisically strong:



As for the origins of those sticks, they are dropped by Deku Babas, presumably as their roots; althought a shop keeper in OoT says that they are branches of the great Deku Tree. I have no idea how idea if a root can even be turned into a stick, or how good it would be; a branch from the Great Deku Tree, if we want to believe that claim, could actually be durable and "strong", but the game gives off the idea of glass-cannon properties as they strike as hard as the master sword but break in one use, which are both fairly unrealistic.

My guessing is that they just use them as walking sticks, to repel horses and to have a somewhat longer reach. Sometimes a stick is just a stick.

O, I thought we were manly talking about the Deku Monkeys when it came to the sticks. Also the "glass-cannon properties" are only unrealistic if they came from the Deku Tree, Things that do a LOT of damage but break easily do exist you know. Also did you give The Detachments the moral and/or stamina boosting powers?

[Apani]

The Detachments move faster and have lower numbers because they're recons. The Koroks have the Command tag.

[starwars90001]

realism with this mod is kinda of impossible, since we don't know how strong deku wood is we have to go off the games, and while deku breaks easily the force from the hit does allot of damage. I'm also to believe from the games koroks bodies are very light, almost as a child, that's how they glad with the leafs in WW.

but the koroks are the kokiri's heavy unit, so maybe deku wood is very strong in this lore. or maybe it's magic.

[Sir Aroun]

The Detachments move faster and have lower numbers because they're recons. The Koroks have the Command tag.

But you agreed long ago, that it would be a good why of improving them and Pioneers. Or was it that you where going to give the backpacks to the Pioneers and give them the moral and/or stamina boosting powers?

[Apani]

I'll have to redo Labrynna; they're easy to do because they're still somewhat human, but now I'm making factions in order. As for boni, I think I'll give a stamina boost and very small speed decreaser to any unit carrying a backpack or pouches or such (maybe varying basing on the size of the containers). Pioneers need some purpose, even thought I'm uncertain whether to give them Command. By the way, there are no inter-unit Stamina Boosting Powers.

Next question: compared to a human man, how would a Bokoblin or a Kokiri (considering variables such as armour and weapons) be able to withstand a cavalry charge?

[Zalanum]

For the Kokiri I would imagine they would take a cavalry charge like a child would (I think that means badly) but wolfos would might scare horses so that could counter it.
Bokoblins don't seem to fare very well against link on horse back so I think they wouldn't handle a charge very well either.