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Thread: [Discussion] House Cup

  1. #61
    Derpy Hooves's Avatar Bombs for Muffins
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    Default Re: [Discussion] House Cup

    I agree it would be best to have a flow chart or some kind of picture to depict how a new system would look like. However, I still believe that the best way to go about it would be small incremental changes.



  2. #62
    grouchy13's Avatar TW Mercenary Veteranii
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    Default Re: [Discussion] House Cup

    Okay then, playing devils advocate and in a situation where we adopt the house system along political lines supplanting the Curia I am Citizen who wishes to make a proposal for the betterment of the site however I am not an active participant in my associated house where exactly will my proposal stand?

    Is is the strength of my proposal dependant on the stature of my house, what if because of my decision not to participate in my associated house's doings they will not agree to support my proposal, how will it be made and as an independent will it have a fair and equal leg to stand upon?

    Likewise if a house is larger and has more influence does it mean it's proposals will be facilitated more easily, even if they could possibly be detrimental to the site?

    Also by the implementation of houses as a political model are we not adding more red tape, issues arising needing to be debated and vetoed by a house before they are thrown into the bull pit of competing houses who may not look at an idea on merit but in relation to partisan politics and self interest?

    You ask for justification of the current Curia model Poach, at least idea's are free to be discussed here by any Citizen irrespective of his flimsy association to a house. Idea's can be discussed on, voted on and implemented on merit not immediately exposed to the bias that competing parties will inevitably have against one other.
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  3. #63
    Poach's Avatar Civitate
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    Default Re: [Discussion] House Cup

    You post it in the Q&S like everyone else does when they have an idea that betters the site. The Curia as a pretend political body is a farce and completely out of touch with the reality you face. When was the last time the Curia did anything meaningful? It "legislates" (a generous term for what happens in here) for itself and only itself, and even then a trip through the Curial archive shows a vast abundance of elections to various pointless offices, some citizenship applications, and previous little else. The only thing the Curia has "done" in recent history is the Product Review forum, which is no longer actively controlled, and was literally handed fully prepared to the Curia by GED.

    The Curia becomes about community. Houses exist as clubs that compete in the Cup, for good members, and other things anyone can think of. Anything involving real change to the site comes from Staff or the Q&S and has done for years.
    Last edited by Poach; February 18, 2014 at 05:59 PM.

  4. #64
    grouchy13's Avatar TW Mercenary Veteranii
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    Default Re: [Discussion] House Cup

    Hold on here, are you now saying the Houses are no longer political?, earlier you mentioned that you envisaged them functioning as competing Political parties ala the UN iirc, are you know distancing yourself from that as mentioned before there seems to be some different streams meandering away from the OP proposal.


    If the Curia is to move toward a Community competition as opposed to a legislative body, and if Citizenship is to be granted on the whim of a house and whatever administrative body it is governed by I believe there should be a clear distinction between those who earned he rank on the back of their contributions to the site as opposed to those who would be elevated merely to make up the numbers of participants in the house system.


    This could either be a different badge, title whatever as long as there is a distinction between those who invested time and energy in producing content and those who are merely participating in a competition
    Under the Patronage of the Venerable Jom Patron of the one true Shogun wealthmonger, Antipodean son IZob, Terrifying Sultan of the Blitz totalwar_legend & Warden of the Iron Throne Dux








  5. #65
    Poach's Avatar Civitate
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    Default Re: [Discussion] House Cup

    I’m going to throw out ideas to these questions, not necessarily totally formed and vote-ready ideas but food for thought at least.

    ...

    A couple of ideas:

    ...

    1.2.2: Introduce the real-world Political Party system into the Curia via the Houses. The existing set up is Citizens > Curia, change it to Citizens > Houses > Curia, making the Curia a “United Community of Houses” rather than simply a “United Community of Citizens”. This can range through extremes: for example the Curator will come from the last victorious House of the Olympics, with other offices coming from runners up (e.g. Curator Assistants being from the 2ndand 3rd placing Houses), these positions remain democratic but the candidates are sourced from those Houses. The other end would water that down and would simply keep the Curia as-is but with new House badges people would be representing their Houses rather than just themselves.
    Behold, the fabled "open for debate" statements in my original post. I said it's an idea, in my opinion a good one, but not a necessary one. My main drive has always been changing the Curia into a community hub.

    And once again you're missing the point. Houses decide who has "earned [t]he rank on the back of their contributions" and as such Houses take on a unique character by having their own bars set. The outcome is that membership of certain Houses becomes prized because their standards in whatever area are high, while Houses that opt to dilute the requirements and pile on low-quality members suffer a bad image. Giving each House their own badge allows this: people will see "Citizen of House X" and be impressed or "Citizen of House Y" and be doubtful, and so on.

    Houses are not only about a competition. Houses will take over the entire role of the Curia, CdeC and all, on a per-House basis.

  6. #66
    Genius of the Restoration's Avatar You beaut and magical
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    Default Re: [Discussion] House Cup

    Quote Originally Posted by Poach View Post
    My main drive has always been changing the Curia into a community hub.
    Can I ask why you've chosen this as your main drive? It's a departure from the current focus and I'd like to know why I should subscribe to the new direction.

    A query about houses being in a constant competition of prestige; won't this undermine the goal to create a community? Wouldn't constant competition encourage the formation of mini-communities rather than a broader, encompassing one? There's are definite identity differences within citizenship as it currently stands. The current proposal to remove the distinction between artifex, civitate and citizen illustrates these differences well. There is no tangible difference between an artifex and a civitate as far as the system is concerned, yet there is opposition to merging the two badges groups into a unified group. I think creating systemic differences between what body members are a part of could entrench individual sub-identities (at the specialisation level) at the expense of a group identity (on a TWC level).

    Now, this might not be a terrible idea! Maybe it would be good to have an artifex's house but I was never fond of the idea of a modding council, preferring that all citizens could be recognised by the same body - regardless of their specialty, they would all be recognised on behalf of the site and inducted into a body that was designed to be equal for everyone. I'm not sure how well that aligns with houses in competition.

    I'm still interested in hearing what functions you want citizenship to embody. At the moment there are a bunch of functions than citizenship and the Curia is expected to perform, such as:

    • rewarding members
    • as a legislator to advise staff on policy
    • some sort of 'member bank' from which to draw moderators
    • electing magistrates
    • a community
    • a bit of fun

    You want to focus on the community aspect. What do you think about the other functions?

  7. #67
    Poach's Avatar Civitate
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    Default Re: [Discussion] House Cup

    Let's tackle these one at a time:

    "Rewarding members", check. Though an entire faux-Citizenship system doing the job that a medal would more appropriately do is stupid.
    "Legislator", nope. Going back as far as 2011 I can't find anything useful the Curia has done for the site at large. It even failed to upkeep the Product Review forum that was handed to them packaged and ribboned.
    "Member bank", check. Completely unnecessary, in my opinion. The Curia does a touch of sifting for the Moderation branch but any claim that the Curia is an essential, even important, part of the selection process is false.
    "Electing magistrates", check. Perhaps the sole aspect of the Curia that functions as it says on the tin without being delusionally grand or comically broken.
    "A community", nope. This place is almost entirely inactive when the Citizen body as a whole is looked at.
    "A bit of fun", what? If that's a justification for this place I'll move it into the Community RPG Section where it should belong.

    Houses:
    - Reward members in the same way the Curia does, but with entry to a sub-group of Citizens who have unique entry requirements and character. It will open up selection for potential Citizens into which House they attempt to find a patron for.
    - Will legislate themselves as the Curia currently legislates themselves, but with a smaller franchise at House level the "legislation" will create more of a character, with an individual citizen enjoying more importance, prominence and space than they do currently due to the smaller groups. The ability to create unique aspects to a House will make them, as a whole group, more interesting. The Curia is vast and faceless.
    - As a member bank it can continue: even though I disagree with the principle, I am neither a Mod nor a Mod Hex.
    - Magistrates can be elected per-House or as a whole franchise anyway, with candidates standing irrespective of Houses.
    - Will create a community:
    ---- More importance per person in a smaller group.
    ---- More intimate environment, which can be as formal or as informal as the Houses decide individually.
    ---- With a Games Committee organising the annual House Cup (plus, as I've said, any and all other ideas throughout the year) there will be at least one major event per year for Citizens to gain enjoyment from. If you don't like pretend politics the Curia has nothing for you. A House Cup brings something for everyone. Other competitions bring something for those areas they encompass. Simple friendly/grudge matches across any discipline can happen. The Games Committee can be as active as they're willing to be, anything is possible: once-monthly debate competition? Arranging a Minecraft tournament? Rewards can be rep, medals, signatures, positions within their Houses, whatever. This is a proposal, let's flesh it out.
    ---- Each House being autonomous also gives more roles. Each House now has a CdeC (or whatever they decide to use), each House now has a Curator (or however they work it), each House has whatever they want.
    - Far more fun for far more people than the current Curia.

    Currently the Curia performs only one of those duties you listed faithfully. As a simple "reward for service", the Curia is vastly oversized, thinks far too highly of itself, and wastes far too much space.

  8. #68

    Default Re: [Discussion] House Cup

    I would merely like to reply to people saying that any form of House Cup "will not make people who are already citizens active in the Curia". This isn't just another attempt to get disinterested citizens interested. Building a community by creating worthwhile activities to partake in here is a long-term project with future citizens in mind first and foremost. The criticial thing is that we work out something acceptable to as many currently interested citizens as possible, so that we can all start this up with enthusiasm and thereby make a foundation which isn't hollow, and that can welcome future generations into it.


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  9. #69
    Påsan's Avatar Hva i helvete?
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    Default Re: [Discussion] House Cup

    Each House now has a CdeC (or whatever they decide to use), each House now has a Curator (or however they work it), each House has whatever they want.
    While I like the outline, what is to prevent each house to grow exponentially, soaking up new non-citizen members like wildfire and eventually end up with hundreds of members that nobody have control over?

    What will prevent this whole thing to become a member-hunt rat-race to secure the most prominent non-accounted for members within modding and debate?


    I think this idea sounds fun, but not if it forces us on to a wild recruiting spree to win the house cup. I think some form of quality/quantity check on member recruitment, and house size would still be necessary.
    Last edited by Påsan; February 19, 2014 at 09:12 AM.

  10. #70
    Poach's Avatar Civitate
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    Default Re: [Discussion] House Cup

    Why would you be forced onto recruiting sprees for a House Cup? It's a fun event for the Houses, not the 1st Prize of TWC. The Houses themselves should be able to moderate their intake based on who is worthy rather than trying to win the House Cup year after year.

    As I've said earlier (I guess you haven't read everything, it's long...), with each House getting their own badge (eg, "Citizen of House Hader"), any House that soaks up anyone and everyone that cares to ask for a badge will quickly become a poorly viewed House. I say if a House wants to fill itself up with second rate posters/contributors let them, because the first rate posters/contributors will seek other Houses rather than enter the huge easy House.

  11. #71
    Navajo Joe's Avatar SS Forum Moderator
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    Default Re: [Discussion] House Cup

    Poach,
    A couple of questions:
    1. I take it that each citizen currently is a member of a house, if they no do not want to be part of that house anymore, how can that be accommodated?
    2. If a Citizen does not want to be a member of a house, but still wishes to retain their Citzenship, how will that be accommodated?
    3. Your proposal devolves power to the houses, how will this be managed?
    4. How can you ensure each house will discipline like any other?

    I am not a fan of de-centralization, it creates 'redtape', increases costs and allows different interpretations of rules and procedures.





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  12. #72
    Poach's Avatar Civitate
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    Default Re: [Discussion] House Cup

    1. As I understand it adoption has always been allowed, no?
    2. They get the badge and never interact, they can always switch the badge off.
    3. Let the Houses decide.
    4. I can't, that's the point. Houses will be different, some will be highly respected, some won't. That's the entire point.

  13. #73

    Default Re: [Discussion] House Cup

    @Poach: Yes adoption has always been allowed. Anyways I'm starting to like this more and more.

    Also I think the new front page setup also has many things in relation to points and such. Perhaps we can also customize these on the basis of how houses are doing and in which competitions etc, with an overall progress table or something - which can do deeper into more categories as the user interacts with it further. Just like how Arcade setup used to display the top players and stuff. I think that is also possible. This adds quite a uniqueness to a gaming website does it not?
    Quote Originally Posted by Inkie Pie View Post
    I would merely like to reply to people saying that any form of House Cup "will not make people who are already citizens active in the Curia". This isn't just another attempt to get disinterested citizens interested. Building a community by creating worthwhile activities to partake in here is a long-term project with future citizens in mind first and foremost. The criticial thing is that we work out something acceptable to as many currently interested citizens as possible, so that we can all start this up with enthusiasm and thereby make a foundation which isn't hollow, and that can welcome future generations into it.
    Well put.

  14. #74
    grouchy13's Avatar TW Mercenary Veteranii
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    Default Re: [Discussion] House Cup

    I think resistance to this where this proposal will take us is pretty much futile now fella's, what with the CdeC removal proposal now also in the open being given heavy support by Hex, Senior staff members and large portions of Devians the Curia as we know it is a 100% endangered species.

    I suggest saving your energies instead of trying to oppose this and the other far reaching reforms as for one across both threads those who have attempted to defend the Curia or question the validity of these proposals have been subjected to contempt and ridicule most disappointingly from members of the body which wields the true power around here who seem to have descended from their ivory tower to reform the Curia en mass, I think what we can all take heart from here is TWC has survived political turmoil and far reaching reforms in the past and has continued to thrive, as the strength of the site is not the Curia and nor IMO will it ever be this House System, it will always be the passion that we collectively have for the game and the amazing diversification and quality of Content that is produced here.

    If possible however I believe consideration should be given to those who have invested time producing Content in whatever form and achieved Citizenship on the back of the quality of these contributions whom wish to opt out of the House system should be penalized by the removal of the recognition they received for there endeavors (Namely the Badge), I for one after doing some research into who some of my fellow 'House Mates' are do not wish to be lumped together with them as part of my TWC identity.

    As trivial as it may sound that someone should cherish a shiny badge I think from the various debates that have been conducted pertaining to the Artifex/Citivate badge issues it is clear that many Citizens associate their badges with the pride they have in their work and the pride they have in the recognition of this work which facilitates their elevation to Citizen, in a way now I can totally relate to that as I don't wish to be known grouchy 13 Citizen of House Wilpuri, nor do I feel it fair that my decision to not be associated with House Wilpuri should lead to the removal of my badge, that was rewarded to me on the merit of the many hours I invested writing, overseeing Hotseats and Mod work I poured into the site.

    In a nutshell then for those who are in the driving seat behind this proposal, is there another path where those who wish to remain shall we say independents yet can still call themselves Citizens???
    Last edited by grouchy13; February 19, 2014 at 04:22 PM.
    Under the Patronage of the Venerable Jom Patron of the one true Shogun wealthmonger, Antipodean son IZob, Terrifying Sultan of the Blitz totalwar_legend & Warden of the Iron Throne Dux








  15. #75
    Poach's Avatar Civitate
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    Default Re: [Discussion] House Cup

    Nope, that would defeat the entire purpose of the Houses. You're welcome, instead, to look for a House you do want to belong to and find an adoptive patron there. I hardly think you'll have trouble shifting into a House of your choice.

    I think the fact that "Hex, senior staff members and ... devians" are supporting these reform proposals en masse is in fact proof that the current system is broken and useless. I offer you no direct contempt (difficult to do so considering I've twice recruited you to do things for Gaming, if I were filled for contempt for you I wouldn't have done so), but I'm unapologetic for the contempt I offer the system the Curia currently has. It is, openly and without doubt, pathetic and broken.

  16. #76
    grouchy13's Avatar TW Mercenary Veteranii
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    Default Re: [Discussion] House Cup

    I can't say I'm happy about that Poach, as petty as it may appear something that I earned and was rewarded under considerable scrutiny of my character and conduct will be taken from me unless I choose to participate in this new system where as new participants to the house system may be granted the same right for what exactly, they may possibly be given it as a matter of fact for their complicity to the new system without consideration of their conduct and bearing within the site or measurement of their contributions should their "House" see it fit to do so.
    Under the Patronage of the Venerable Jom Patron of the one true Shogun wealthmonger, Antipodean son IZob, Terrifying Sultan of the Blitz totalwar_legend & Warden of the Iron Throne Dux








  17. #77

    Default Re: [Discussion] House Cup

    @Grouchy
    Brother no one is showing contempt for individuals here. I apologize if i have offended you\anyone.

  18. #78
    Poach's Avatar Civitate
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    Default Re: [Discussion] House Cup

    Quote Originally Posted by grouchy13 View Post
    I can't say I'm happy about that Poach, as petty as it may appear something that I earned and was rewarded under considerable scrutiny of my character and conduct will be taken from me unless I choose to participate in this new system where as new participants to the house system may be granted the same right for what exactly, they may possibly be given it as a matter of fact for their complicity to the new system without consideration of their conduct and bearing within the site or measurement of their contributions should their "House" see it fit to do so.
    Versus the current system which is exactly the same anyway. The current CdeC set their own standards as they see fit, how exactly do you reasonably claim that creating Houses will unduly alter that? Because one House might have a different interpretation of what "worthy" is?

    Also, looking at the current proposal by Squid, it seems confidence in the CdeC is at rock bottom with a great deal of support for dumping it entirely. You'll note my idea here devolves Citizenship granting to the Houses, who can set up their own CdeC, do it via direct democracy, do it via dice roll, do it however they as a group decide.

    Your argument is unjustifiable: the current CdeC is a shambles and the House system doesn't threaten to change that, merely duplicate it and provide sub-groups the chance to alter it based on the preferences of that sub-group.

  19. #79
    StealthFox's Avatar Consensus Achieved
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    Default Re: [Discussion] House Cup

    I'm afraid that people will not be active enough to really make this big change idea work. I think we should start off with a House Cup Competition similar to the original proposal and/or Poach's once a year Olympic style competition. If people like the idea of House groups and if members are active, participating, and representing their Houses, then I think we can revisit any ideas to expand the roles of Houses. One step at a time.
    Last edited by StealthFox; February 19, 2014 at 09:26 PM.

  20. #80
    Garbarsardar's Avatar Et Slot i et slot
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    Default Re: [Discussion] House Cup

    Quote Originally Posted by LestaT View Post
    I am homeless.
    House Wilpuri would be happy to accommodate you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Lime View Post
    The only function houses ever had was in the bad old days of political chaos and duplicity that preceded the imbtatorship.
    Yes! Beautiful, beautiful memories. Chaos! Duplicity! Intrigue! Backstabbing! Can we please do it again?

    Quote Originally Posted by StealthFox View Post
    I'm afraid that people will not be active enough to really make this big change idea work. I think we should start off with a House Cup Competition similar to the original proposal and/or Poach's once a year Olympic style competition. If people like the idea of House groups and if members are active, participating, and representing their Houses, then I think we can revisit any ideas to expand the roles of Houses. One step at a time.
    That.

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