[Discussion] House Cup

[Derpy Hooves]

For me, the House cup was never about the CVRIA, it is about the citizens

[Genius of the Restoration]

I think devolving patronisation to the Houses rather than the CdeC will make Citizenship not only more accessible but also more social and personal. The current CdeC is arbitrary, disconnected from reality and frankly views itself as far more important and serious than it is as they set grand standards for entry into an irrelevant and useless institution.

How is a house system more useful than the current institution?

As with last time I'm saddened by not only the lackluster response in general but also in the resistance to anything that might bring the Curia into being relevant: it's as if you people are actually happy being irrelevant.

Sorry for disagreeing with the idea you put forward, I must be the enemy. Christ.

I suggest that you try to get a few people together and discuss the idea in small groups before posting a wall of text. I think you'll get more of a response if more people are consulted.

For the record, Genius, you're in Caesars, patronised by Katsumoto.

Okay, you're in the same house as me then, right? Why would our voices have to go through an additional polity of our house before the Curia? We don't agree; why not just remain individuals? That's my understanding of what you're envisioning, please correct me if I'm wrong.

Funnily enough the last time I spoke about the state of the Curia I got people 'agreeing' in principle, disagreeing with any and all proposals to change it, and failing to front anything in return. That's what this Curia is: a useless collection of people who pretend to want to do things but ultimately won't get off their arses to even try. If you lack the time, the energy, the inclination then fine, but why must you people insist in holding back everyone else who does with lazy disagreements for no reason other than vague dislike?

As I said in the first sentence of my response to you:

I don't really like that idea, Poach. It would result in a a worse experience than the current one for a user like me.

I don't want to have to commit to something that you say will be for "every Citizen every day". I'd much prefer that the houses be supplementary, as StealthFox initially described, rather than obligatory. Something that members can choose to engage with if they want to, rather than be shoehorned into if they accept TWC's recognition with an offer of citizenship. I don't want something intensive and I bet I'm not alone. Talk to me about how this benefits the members of the site and maybe you'll win me over with your argument. Say I'm part of a "useless collection of people" who are just here with "lazy disagreement" all you like, but you never convince people by berating them.

[Navajo Joe]

I think people should choose their words very carefully, some posts in this thread are very disrespectful and alienate people that serve the Curia, who may I add have been chosen by the Citizens in a vote. If people here are looking to change how the Curia, CDEC, etc works it may be more appropriate to post in a manner that gains support, rather than antagonise and isolate.

You may also wish to consider that there will be many citizens who do not interact with their house, may not want to either, there will be other who have closer feeling of community with the Curia.

You could also consider that if more is required of the Curia and its citizens, then perhaps the site owner and HEX could delegate some responsibilities to the Curia

[Poach]

Making Houses like parties was one suggestion of many and easily cast aside. What angers me is the lazy opposition to the entire proposal. For the supposed upper echelon of the site's thinkers and doers, the response here has been overwhelmingly "Nah, I don't really like it, just 'cause...". All we need is a House system that groups people together, encourages discussion and teamwork, gives them avenues of expression in the name of their House through competitions and gives them a support structure.

Here's how it betters the Curia: Each House takes on a character of its own, giving people something more to belong to. With their own badges, forums, practices and traditions (which will include yearly competitions in the House Cup) will do far more for community spirit than an empty hall bereft of any community feeling whose only recurring activity is to elect a pointless Curator and a CdeC whose job is to approve Citizens in a turnstile type movement where they appear, get a badge, and leave never to return.

It will give people a real choice in what they go for as people looking for Citizenship will start looking for Citizenship of a specific House. It will give people a reason to feel a part of something because on the back of a House system with a House Cup we can generate other avenues of expression for Houses, such as rivalries/alliances in certain games, competition over the image of most prestigious house, adapting something like the OP of this thread for all-year point awarding through various non-Cup activities like making popular mods, winning non-Cup competitions and more, which can net some other sort of award handed out at the yearly Site Awards ('House of the Year'?). This is what I can think of in 5 minutes.

What's the alternative? What we have right now? A broken, useless, near-forgotten relic that produces absolutely nothing of worth to TWC? Seriously, answer me just that: What's your shining alternative to this? What do you have that'll even try to fix this place?

Could this system fall flat on it's face? Certainly, it very possibly could. Would that be an improvement on what we've got right now? Certainly, because at least that face would be lifted out of the mud for a short while in the attempt.

Speaking as a Hex and not a Citizen, Navajo, the very last thing I would do is hand over any Staff function to this shambles. The place is a complete failure across the board and I'm one of the few who care about trying to turn it into something this site can be proud of. At the moment the Curia is nothing more than a long, long list of failed opportunity and responsibility. Product Reviews does nothing, the CCT/CAT does nothing, almost every Citizen on the site never reads these forums, and all the offices awarded by this place exist for almost no useful (and all entirely self-serving and self-perpetuating) purposes. The whole structure is rotten.

[grouchy13]

whose only recurring activity is to elect a pointless Curator and a CdeC whose job is to approve Citizens in a turnstile type movement where they appear, get a badge, and leave never to return.

May I ask Poach do you believe that many who are put forward for Citizenship are not befitting of receiving the rank?


I'd say if anything as the site numbers grew we saw greater numbers of quality candidates, yes there have been questionable decisions but on the whole looking across the application process rightly so talent had been rewarded with elevation to Citizen.


With ever increasing outlets of contribution numbers of applications will surely grow will it not?


In regards to getting a Badge and moving on I see no problem in this, why should we expect Citizens to contribute more when many have devoted countless hours in producing Mods, writing, Art for the site anyway. If elevation to Citizenship is recognition of this work is that not enough in itself?


And if the Curia facilitates this process by electing a Curator & body of members, the CdeC, to oversee and conduct the Citizenship process is that also not enough and worthy of a modicum of respect.


What the whole CAT/CCT episode has proven is that the broader mass of Citizens are happy to conduct their TWC affairs as they did before they were elevated to Citizen, the recognition of their work with the rank is enough for them, they do not wish to be carolled into further responsibilities that in most likelyhood have little in relation to what they do on a daily basis site wide , and why should they be forced to do more? because busybodies believe they should?, I believe that in expecting Citizens to do more is a false assessment of what the Rank now symbolises.


Citizenship as recognition of quality contributions made for TWC is a just reward for those who make the content that stands TWC apart, changing that process with a faux political/feudal house system would be a huge mistake IMO.


I see no problem with a house cup as a means of promoting interaction between Citizens to foster Community, but as a new way in which we approach both the definition and distribution of Citizenship I oppose in the strongest terms

[Poach]

As such do you support the abolition of everything that is not the CdeC? We do not need a Curia with a multitude of elected offices, forums, a constitution or citizen-only forums if we're to formally accept that the Curia's only role on TWC is to award a medal for service.

You hit the nail on the head with what the Curia is de facto. De jure, however, it is the voice of the people, the collective community of the active TWCers, and the centre for discourse about the site and what it does.

This proposal is aiming to move the Curia from the de facto position back to the de jure position. If, however, you're happy with the de facto position I call for the abolition of the massive dead weight attached to the CdeC, the abolition of Citizenship (replaced by a simple medal), so we can make room for other functions and systems, ran by staff, that will take over the role the Curia is supposed to do.

We either return the Curia to what it is supposed to do or we accept it's a useless relic and abolish everything except a medal-awarding body. I really don't care which we do, because both will clear away this ruin of a place and make way for better things. This place currently squats on several historical rights that it totally neglects and I want them released or utilised.

[Derpy Hooves]

What does this conversation have to do with the House Cup?

[Poach]

House Cup > Make Houses matter > Curia is useless. Or would you rather we continue to avoid the real issues and produce yet more token, half-baked outputs doomed to fail that will simply reinforce the points made? Doing a House Cup without a major rethink of the Curia as a whole will fail because the Curia as a whole is a failure.

[Ishan]

This has taken a rather interesting turn. I like poach's idea and we should all take advantage of it and try to compare things here and the possibilities he is trying to show us.

[grouchy13]

Seems there are 2 Streams of proposal here, the original OP pertaining to fostering Community and interaction between Citizens and Poach's more radical take on how the House System could be used to replace the current Curial model.

In regards to Poaches comments I for one can't see how restructuring the Curia along house lines will change anything, how will a house competing for points, awards etc etc mean Citizens will become more active. Will the houses not be comprised of serving Citizens, many of whom choose not to participate in the Curia at this current time anyway?

Suddenly being lumped in a house isn't going to change this or address that the Curia only has limited practical functions to carry out, It's not the Curia's fault it's in this position more so a victim of circumstance, circumstances many who participate in the Curia & CdeC we're not involved in, I think your criticisms are unfair especially when considering many of the Curia's recent failures such as the CCT & CAT were torpedoed by Staff branches looking to ring post there interests, much toinitiatives detriment

Your proposal has merit Derpy, but for my support there needs to be a clear outline of what's being proposed here, Poach is touting one thing I think markedly different from your proposal which I believe would be a better application of the house system

[Poach]

I'm tiring of repeating myself.

1. The Curia has no community. Making Houses might fix that. Why? Their own forum, badge, competing for medals/awards as a member of said House and unique way of doing things = better chance of community taking hold. Will this work, guaranteed? Of course not. Is it worth trying to renovate a ruined house, even if it's not guaranteed to work? Yes, because leaving it as it is means leaving a useless ruin.

2. I don't care how the Curia failed, the Curia still failed. Was it Staff ringfencing their areas? If so, the Curia is superfluous. Was it incompetence, inactivity and lack of true purpose? If so, the Curia is a failure. Both mandate that the Curia be abolished. Crying about it being 'a victim' isn't a case for letting it continue, rather it is a case for axing an institution that is surplus to requirements, having lost every function it once had to other areas of the site.

Once again I say this: Rehabilitate this place or abolish it. It is broken and useless. Grouchy, your every post has been making excuses for this place. Justify it​. I bet you can't.

[Derpy Hooves]

Poach, my suggestion is to take one step at a time.
Grouchy, that is the plan. Actually, that is what this thread was for: gathering ideas from people who wanted to voice their input. Inkie and I are still updating the house list, I just have a few more to do then I will think more of a concrete plan (I think I'm better with the abstract though )

[Poach]

So we can fail on stage 1 while everyone disagrees with stage 2 just like in this thread?

[Ishan]

Justify it​. I bet you can't.

I'm willing to collect some results and post some details about curia which me and Inkie were intending to do anyways about one month ago. Whole point was to show what curia is and was and how it has performed in recent 2 years. It was meant to be some bitter criticism based on facts from my end and show some of the potential in things where curia is simply unwilling to give a flying because it takes effort to build something. Talking bollocks is easy, implementing it, while working with others is entirely different & very hard - this is where curia fails entirely.

What you're suggesting has some scope and does exactly that. A house system which can still perform like the intended unified curia. Covering modding, creative writing, multiplayer gaming, competitions and everything.

4:22 in the morning here so i will post something tomorrow on this. Meanwhile i suggest we don't hack poach's head off lol and get into long winded arguments unless i collect some facts from both the sides. We need to compare some facts before we agree\disagree on this.

[Genius of the Restoration]

What angers me is the lazy opposition to the entire proposal.

What bemuses me is your needlessly antagonistic language. It actively works against your cause by repelling the very people you want to convince. Chill, man, take the emotion out of it.

For the supposed upper echelon of the site's thinkers and doers, the response here has been overwhelmingly "Nah, I don't really like it, just 'cause..."

I've told you what I don't like about your idea. I've asked for clarification if my interpretation isn't what you intended. Don't cast me as some lazy sod who can't string a meaningful sentence together. You don't need to be disrespectful just because we disagree. I hope you'll find that I'm quite open to dialogue, but my patience sometimes wears thin when people make me out to be someone I'm not.

Here's how it betters the Curia: Each House takes on a character of its own, giving people something more to belong to. With their own badges, forums, practices and traditions (which will include yearly competitions in the House Cup) will do far more for community spirit than an empty hall bereft of any community feeling whose only recurring activity is to elect a pointless Curator and a CdeC whose job is to approve Citizens in a turnstile type movement where they appear, get a badge, and leave never to return.

Okay, so you're proposing a change in function for the Curia to structure it primarily towards community-building. The current system isn't geared for that. I think the current system is more concerned with recognition of members of the site. The membership and awards hold no mandatory participation requirements. The ability of the Curia to self-legislate and perform other duties that it wants to is secondary to the core function of citizenship as a reward.

I think it'd be beneficial to start at the basics of what you desire. What functions do you want the Curia to offer? What is necessary and what is optional? The way you described the House system as being something for "every Citizen every day" makes it sound like creating a regular community is the core function. What is the relationship of this function on one hand to the function of a reward on the other? I suggest we start at what we're after and then look to what the best way to deliver that outcome is. I don't think talking about how the House Cup would work and imposing the final system first is the best way to do this - but that's just how I approach problems. You and others might view this differently.

What's the alternative? What we have right now? A broken, useless, near-forgotten relic that produces absolutely nothing of worth to TWC? Seriously, answer me just that: What's your shining alternative to this? What do you have that'll even try to fix this place?

I wrote quite a bit (skip to the bottom of the post for a summary) on this topic a few years ago and have brought it up every time redesigning the Curia has arisen since then. That was an idea I had, though I'd probably change it a bit now. What would be consistent is that I'd see the form of the redesigned body follow the function that it was designed to perform.

almost every Citizen on the site never reads these forums, and all the offices awarded by this place exist for almost no useful (and all entirely self-serving and self-perpetuating) purposes.

If the prime function of the citizenship is as a reward, then this is neither here nor there. If people have taken the time to compile their contributions to the site, and have been duly rewarded for them, then the essential function has been completed. People coming back to do other things is secondary in the current set up. You may not like that, or think that it's wise, but this result should be expected from a system that doesn't require any further commitment.

What the whole CAT/CCT episode has proven is that the broader mass of Citizens are happy to conduct their TWC affairs as they did before they were elevated to Citizen

I agree with this and think it's understandable. Expectations that float around that the Curia should 'do something' take a logical leap by expecting that a group of citizens, who don't have to do anything as individuals, should come together and make a difference to the whole site by contributing as a group. It might have been the spirit of what was initially envisioned for the Curia but the way it is set up doesn't lead it work in that way.

[Inarus]

What bemuses me is your needlessly antagonistic language. ... Chill, man, take the emotion out of it.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Ishan]

Alright so this is the curial setup by my understanding and i'm not including Halie's merry-go-round where most of the discussions are just rehashes of simply meaningless repetitive discussions and minor changes to constitution. It's boring as which adds no real value to site. Anyways to the real stuff...


I can't seem to find complete data on 2013 but for 6 months in 2013 what happened in curia was:
-Passed 17 citizens.
-Reviewed 8 disciplinary cases
-Awarded 2 Novus medals.

And if the curial reports aren't done then it goes to show that people don't even have interest in making them, nevermind reading them. Not pointing fingers at anyone, as when i say curia, i'm also including myself. "We" need to listen to each other and try to find some better alternative and try to dismantle the curia if we see no real value being derived from it.

So for year 2012, i see reports for 11 months so it's quite complete:
-Passed 41 citizens.
-Reviewed 12 disciplinary cases.
-Awarded 15 medals.

Only other thing that can be considered in 2012 is that Garb proposed a change in for tribunal and Jubal Barca proposed a change in ToS. Both of these successful changes came through curia.

Now we need to see where curia isn't doing what it's suppose to do & what the new system offers us in exchange and whether that is a better alternative here or not.

Can anyone point me to the new house system setup or make a flow chart type table like i have done? Anyone?

[Navajo Joe]

A nice piece of work, I do love flow diagrams, avoids wordy wordy paragraphs. I am sure that they don't have one for the new set up, perhaps they might now

[Ishan]

Poach has posted some nice long posts on the previous posts and so has Inkie so they just need to tell me what needs to drawn in what manner. After that we can compare both the existing and proposed overhaul.

On a general sense i do like the new setup very much. Individual houses, multiplayer competitions, rivalry and other competitions, an integrated modding awards committee comprising of modders from each houses etc. Overall i feel curia is a somewhat defunct system now and with new setup where people are actually knowledgeable and active in particular fields can actually perform the tasks better. While the new citizen thing is also simplified with their own house diversity.

I will PM T.C, mitch and muizer about this as well. Most likely they can offer something more to this.

[Påsan]

This has been an interesting read. This experiment which can bring more purpose to the curia have my support.

However I think the focus needs to be shifted back into making a defined model rather than diluting the issue with the old "is-Cura-worthless?" debate. Interested parties should perhaps finalize a working framework for the house cup and present it in a good easy to understand manner rather than just pitching ideas for the public where it is just the few outspoken Curia dinosaurs who provide input. Perhaps form a dedicated group with Poach, Inkie Pie and Derpy Hooves and others to see it through the concept phase.

Then we can take the debate from there.