Modding Summit and related discussion

[spartan_warrior]

I'd love to attend but I'm on the other side of the Atlantic, and don't know if I will be available.. if it was the following week I definitely would as its my reading/spring break. I'm really curious to see what they have planned for campaign map modability and whether or not it will be added to the assembly kit. Given Rome 2's map being somewhat similar to Shogun 2's, there are definitely a few questions I'd like to ask; as some important map elements were missing from Shogun's assembly kit, primarily graphical tree placement and official supertexture support (though there are no supertextures in Rome 2 so I guess that won't matter anymore).

[crzyrndm]

If I were to organize the summit, I'd look at the most highly rated Mods on the Workshop and contact the creators of those if they haven't called in yet.

My only hesitation there is what is this summit aiming to achieve? Many of the popular mods are working with very well understood mechanics with very little new ground being broken. While their opinions on workflow and ease of use may be more fully formed than small scale mod makers, do they understand what they are doing or are they just following someone elses guide and then tweaking numbers to get the feel they want? It's not wrong by any means, but is it beneficial for someone following a guide repeatedly to attend?

[daniu]

Many of the popular mods are working with very well understood mechanics with very little new ground being broken.
[...]
It's not wrong by any means, but is it beneficial for someone following a guide repeatedly to attend?

Yes, I didn't mean it to be exclusive at all. But what I imagine is going on at CA is that they get hundreds of mails from people who'd to attend, and they have to prioritize.
OTOH, some good modders may have missed the invitation and haven't requested attendence.
I'm not entirely certain they have as good an overview over the active modders as some of us do, and the WS ratings are an easily accessible benchmark.

You're right about it would be great to have the people doing actual groundbreaking work; spartan_warrior would be pretty much on top of my list for that for instance.

[Trish CA]

Well, we will be also reaching out to mods that we are already aware of or have been in contact with in the past. However, we would like this to be equal opportunity and try to give all modders a chance to come out to CA for the Summit. As someone rightly mentioned, it is not a popularity contest.

Thank you for the fantastic suggestions, feel free to ping those that may be unaware of this Summit and ask them to PM me directly!

[crzyrndm]

Yes, I didn't mean it to be exclusive at all. But what I imagine is going on at CA is that they get hundreds of mails from people who'd to attend, and they have to prioritize.
OTOH, some good modders may have missed the invitation and haven't requested attendence.
I'm not entirely certain they have as good an overview over the active modders as some of us do, and the WS ratings are an easily accessible benchmark.

Oh, I understand entirely why you suggested it, I just question the usefulness of such an approach (depends entirely ofcourse on the intended aim of the summit. I'm not exactly sure what they are hoping to get out of it atm, so making suggestions is proving a little difficult).

spartan_warrior would be pretty much on top of my list for that for instance.

Add UAnime5 with regards to mapping, and Mitch already mentioned the two who seem to be at the forefront of the modelling efforts

I'd also really like to see wangrin and maybe warman222 attend, especially wangrin though.

Really, we could narrow it down to a few representatives from each area (Mapping, Modelling, Scripting, Sound/Music, Tools and other support, etc.) and just highlight those few people for CA. They can more easily and clearly present issues in their fields of expertise and less time is wasted with superficial problems assuming thats what CA wants to discuss.

But that brings me right back to my problem again. What does CA want to communicate here?

[AngryTitusPullo]

But that brings me right back to my problem again. What does CA want to communicate here?

You may want to pm Trish about that.

[Trish CA]

But that brings me right back to my problem again. What does CA want to communicate here?

Well, would like to personally talk to those who mod the game actively as we support modders. In order to continue our support, we would like to hear feedback from our modders on our recent mod tools and also how we can improve our second wave of mod tools. Just essentially opening a more personal dialogue and giving modders a chance to talk to our developers as well.

[Noif de Bodemloze]

I'd love to attend but I'm on the other side of the Atlantic, and don't know if I will be available.. if it was the following week I definitely would as its my reading/spring break. I'm really curious to see what they have planned for campaign map modability and whether or not it will be added to the assembly kit. Given Rome 2's map being somewhat similar to Shogun 2's, there are definitely a few questions I'd like to ask; as some important map elements were missing from Shogun's assembly kit, primarily graphical tree placement and official supertexture support (though there are no supertextures in Rome 2 so I guess that won't matter anymore).

If you will be sure that you ain't getting there we will deliver your questions there if need so. Even I will go there with full papers about questions.

[HunterWolf]

I agree with crzyrndm on most of the points. It's not yet clear how constructive the dialogue with CA (Creative Assembly) can be. At first it would be great to understand why they would want this summit themselves - have they just decided to gather some information or they are actually open to suggestions. If the latter is correct, what kind of suggestions are expected? Visiting the summit to talk is one thing, visiting the summit to solve some real and vital modding problems is another. Just how serious is modding support organised in CA? I wouldn't call it a serious approach now if judging by Assembly Kit. Of course, I understand it's a beta, but still it's a beta released by a company with a name, not by a schoolkid programmer. It's also not clear just how promising Rome 2 modding will be and will it be something like Valve modding support or another Shogun story. I would like to know why CA doesn't hold any constructive discussions on modding support but still invites modders to the summit. It's pretty simple - will CA give us a few tweaking tools so we couldn't say that they didn't give us anything or will they give us proper file documentation and file formats description so that we could create the tools ourselves or will they create some serious tools for us? Will they support the modding technically and information-wise? I'm not speaking "I can't insert my armor into the game, HELP!" kind of stuff, I'm speaking WOW conversion algorithms typess and how conversion works kind of questions. It's not yet clear for me why I should spend my time and money and visit the summit. It's definitely a great thing to have an opportunity to talk to the developers but it's also possible on the forums. Considering the attitude of CA towards modding in the past many people just cannot believe that visiting another country can change anything.
I also agree that a quality gathering of suggestions and questions on the forums would be an optimal solution. But, then again, just how serious can these suggestions be at all? I hope CA understands that half of dedicated modders will not be able to make it to the summit and that there will be a lot of people with shallow knowledge of modding. Therefore, I do not understand the decision of CA to solve vital issues on the summit without opening a thread for gathering suggestions and questions here on the forums.
From Russia with Love ©

[wangrin]

I think it is important to realize that the Modding Summit last only one day.
This is not the place to solve issues/problems, but this is the place to report them and to begin a direct speak with developers.
This is also the place for explaining game mechanics and limits to modders.

Of course, it would be possible to report issues with Assembly Kit tools here or in totalwar.com forum, waiting for answers from CA.
You can have a look to this thread for example : [Resource] Preparing the Modding Summit - 2014, early March
But I think we have to go forward, step by step.

I hope it will be possible to discuss about possible organizations to continue exchanges between devs and modders after the modding summit.
Modding is not a "one shot", it is a "long run" work.


About modders I know or I work or have worked with about TW:S2 Assembly kit :

• Ygge : modeler, units and equipment models using CS2 exporter
• Vikus van de Merwe : modeler, units and equipments models using CS2 exporter
• Manolops3 : modeler, units and equipments models using CS2 exporter, examining models_naval tables with hexadecimal editor
• Primergy : modeler, units, equipments and engines models using CS2 exporter, examining .max buildings, knowledge of 3ds max
• Uanime5 : campaign map modder
• JaM : db modder, battle and campaign mechanics knowledge (ETW, NTW, TW:R2 for sure)

Other modders I know, having good knowledge of the game and good skills :

• Steph : MoE (NTW mod)
• Nightwish : modeler, knowledge of Maya
• Quintus Hortensius Hortalus : techtrees and building chains for ETW, basic modeling
• Panzerschreck : battlemap modder for ETW/NTW, modeling knowledge (Blender)
• Bethencourt : naval battle mechanics, modeling knowledge
• Flikitos : 2d/3d artist, db and esf modder (ETW)

I'm sorry for all the talented modders I forget, please, don't shout at me
What I want to say is that modding community is composed of diverse skills, is composed of a lot of talented peoples.
So, the choice is in the hands of CA, depending of their aims.

I can only suggest them to have a look to mod teams (and their mods) as well as to "Total War : ..... Workshop" sub-forums.
But organizing such event, with peoples coming from many different countries is certainly a big challenge.
They must have drawn the short straw to design a volunteer for this heavy task

N.B : I should be free the 3rd of March. Hopefully, and thanks gods, CA propose a date slightly more than one month before the event. This allow us to organize ourselves.

[crzyrndm]

I hope it will be possible to discuss about possible organizations to continue exchanges between devs and modders after the modding summit.

From our side, that would probably be the perfect outcome (opening a reliable means of communication going fowards).

[Noif de Bodemloze]

I'm sorry for all the talented modders I forget, please, don't shout at me
What I want to say is that modding community is composed of diverse skills, is composed of a lot of talented peoples.
So, the choice is in the hands of CA, depending of their aims.

We all know that we have tons of talented modders for TW game, but your, daniu's, mitch's words sound little annoying that your opinion is like some modders go over other modders (Example, those guys in your list would go over me,radious or someone else? Don't even think about it) that this this and this guy should be there etc... doesn't CA also made clear for us that everyone are welcome that who have passion and interest to modding.

[Bearnation54]

I hope CA wines and dines the out of those modders and kisses there feet because the mods are the only reason I still play rome 2

[♘Top Hat Zebra]

We all know that we have tons of talented modders for TW game, but your, daniu's, mitch's words sound little annoying that your opinion is like some modders go over other modders (Example, those guys in your list would go over me,radious or someone else? Don't even think about it) that this this and this guy should be there etc... doesn't CA also made clear for us that everyone are welcome that who have passion and interest to modding.

You have a point, I think.

To me, it doesn't really matter so much who goes, as it does which questions are asked. Anyone can go, but no matter who goes, I think the community still needs to collectively decide on what the most important issues are that need to be discussed.

[.Mitch.]

You have a point, I think.

To me, it doesn't really matter so much who goes, as it does which questions are asked. Anyone can go, but no matter who goes, I think the community still needs to collectively decide on what the most important issues are that need to be discussed.

lol, you've just pointed out exactly why certain people need to go though...

Wangrin should go, for example, over generic stat change modder #341. He knows what to ask, pressing issues with tools that he's experienced using and where future CA efforts should be spent to access the as of yet problematic areas.
I'll use Noif as an example as he brought up the topic, I'm sure he won't mind, would Noif know to ask the questions and topics in wangrins preparation thread? Of course not. Hell there's a fair few I wouldn't be able to chime in on too.
Now, "anyone can ask a question", and sure Noif could write them down and ask them while there, but if one of the programmers at CA like Guy Davidson starts talking to Noif about cs2 file structure what good will that do us.

Equality is good and everyone should get to go, and this event definitely isn't just about getting the complicated questions answered, but to say there aren't certain people who it wouldn't benefit this community more to invite over others... is naive to a crazy level.
I loved the last event, it was ing great, but if someone going over me meant that mods could do more, or that we'd unlock something new, or even that questions would get asked that otherwise wouldn't I, and I'm sure any other real modder, would give up their seat on the boat. Though I would go kicking and screaming and you'd likely have to nudge me overboard.

In the end CA will invite who it's most logistically feasible to invite and I'm sure anyone who expresses interest to go CA will try to get them there, the more people the better, would certainly make the pub interesting.

[♘Top Hat Zebra]

I agree, but in the case that the more logical modders are unable to go, there still should be a list of talking points that important, and compiled beforehand. If wangrin cannot go, then someone else needs to ask the questions that wangrin would ask, and then write down the pertinent information.

[daniu]

Well it's not the more, the merrier.
If a certain threshold of people is exceeded, there will be no dialog anymore but only CA talking to us lecture-style which I don't see as the point of the summit.
Therefore the number has to be limited, and as Mitch points out, the more different the skillsets we can get together the better; I don't have a good overview myself, just a shortlist of some few names I came across having posted stuff I'd never heard about before.
Wangrin did start a thread to gather questions for the summit so we should be good on those; although it's questionable that they can all be answered. It would be much more useful if we had an ongoing Q&A thread where someone from CA pops in once a week or so to answer them.
To get something like that going is what would be most useful to come out of the summit.

[Noif de Bodemloze]

lol, you've just pointed out exactly why certain people need to go though...

Wangrin should go, for example, over generic stat change modder #341. He knows what to ask, pressing issues with tools that he's experienced using and where future CA efforts should be spent to access the as of yet problematic areas.
I'll use Noif as an example as he brought up the topic, I'm sure he won't mind, would Noif know to ask the questions and topics in wangrins preparation thread? Of course not. Hell there's a fair few I wouldn't be able to chime in on too.
Now, "anyone can ask a question", and sure Noif could write them down and ask them while there, but if one of the programmers at CA like Guy Davidson starts talking to Noif about cs2 file structure what good will that do us.

Equality is good and everyone should get to go, and this event definitely isn't just about getting the complicated questions answered, but to say there aren't certain people who it wouldn't benefit this community more to invite over others... is naive to a crazy level.

It is same for me, does Wangrin go there with questions and of course I have my questions as well. But how many modders need to get there to bring wangrin's questions? I believe one or few enough as well, but it is necessary to bring 20 guys by same team to ask those questions? Nope. Even I can ask those questions as well beside my questions if nobody can't do it, but I believe there will be.

[Derpy Hooves]

I hope we can get uanime or someone else who researches Warscape mapping

[wangrin]

Sorry if my post has been misunderstood.
I didn't want to "classify" modders, but simply point that the modding community is composed of a lot of peoples with particular skills.
Some of them have already some experience with Assembly Kit tools, and this is extremely valuable to discuss about strengths and weaknesses of these tools.
If I've listed manolops3, Vikus van der Meerwe, Ygges and Primergy, it's because they have a very good knowledge about CS2 exporter and could easily replace me. I'm only one of the modders who has some experience with CS2, trying to use it, and I can be replace by others, I'm certainly not indispensable.
If I should cite all modders and resume their work or area of modding, I will never end. I'm sorry if peoples feel themselves offended.
I think that the Modding Summit should not be limited to peoples having experience with Assembly Kit, particularly if the subject is the future of modding and how CA and TW community could cooperate. Because modding creativity depend of game design and what is available to modifications.


I don't know what are exact goals for CA about this Modding Summit, but, I know that when you have to really discuss about a subject or a project, you have to limit the number of peoples involved.
Organizing this Modding Summit is certainly a hell of task.
CA has to choose between being "open", with the risk that Modding Summit become more a "communication" event (unidirectional communication : CA > Modders) rather that a place to discuss (CA <> modders) about modding, or limit the number of attendees and looking as "elitist", limiting returns from a creative community.
Moreover, I think we should not be naïve, organizing such event need a budget, and I doubt that they have an unlimited one.


I've create the [Resource] Preparing the Modding Summit - 2014, early March to collect questions about TW:S2 and TW:R2 Assembly Kit tools, after proposing CA to do it but without response.
As usual, "God helps those that help themselves"
I means questions from peoples having test tools, finding issues not solved after discussing with other modders.
Of course, we should not expect to have answer for each questions, but the goal is to list them as a base for discussions.
I'm sorry to not have been able to update OP recently due RL. I should add new questions but also review these listed, some of them being solved or prove to be wrong.

EDIT : A good idea would be that CA invite Brad Bolthouse, Ultimate Unwrap 3D and its ETW plugin developer.
This plugin allow to open most of ETW / NTW / TW:S2 / TW:R2 models, but some models cannot be opened or suffers from bugs.
I think Brad would be a great addition to the Modding Summit because he is a programmer, has knowledge about 3d models converters and TW file formats.