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Thread: Carthage OP?

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    Libertus
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    Default Carthage OP?

    okay i gotta say it, I im love with this mod! finally the ai presents a threatening challenge towards me as rome but now to the matter at hand. i've noticed that carthagian units can take a lot of punishment from roman units especially the hoplites, now most battles turn into a slugging match where my units are getting massacred by them and they seem able to crank out armies faster than me so my expansion towards iberia is stalled. have the stats been altered?

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    Crappy's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: Carthage OP?

    No. What difficulty are you playing on?

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    Default Re: Carthage OP?

    normal

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    Default Re: Carthage OP?

    I had the same on the opposing side.
    Playing as carthage on very hard made me loose every battle, because the romans seemed to have all their research into army…they had already roman legionairies when I had the 2nd kind of baracks.
    My troops were like 1-2 tiers behind theirs, so I lost.

    Just tech as fast as you can to the next tier, so you can beat their units !
    I think its always a matter of technology

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    Black9's Avatar Hastatus
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    Default Re: Carthage OP?

    Hoplites are nigh immortal.

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    LawL_LawL's Avatar Hastatas Posterior
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    Default Re: Carthage OP?

    Quote Originally Posted by Black9 View Post
    Hoplites are nigh immortal.
    From my experience, Rome doesn't/shouldn't have issues rolling Carthage. All Roman infantry can abuse the lack of mobility of the Carthaginian spear units when formed in phalanx and ensure they expend all of their Pila before closing for melee. While the Phalanx is stuck in melee frontally, skirmishers can support the line by tossing any unspent javelins into the flanks of the hoplites. In contrast, Roman infantry are never reliant on a front-facing formation for maximum effectiveness, and can always adopt hollow square if flanking is a threat, where hoplites doing so will lose their Phalanx bonuses they sorely need against other infantry of any worth.

    The only issue I see is Rome is always lacking spear potency, but this is practically a non issue as if you micro your sword units properly against cavalry you can counter-charge them when they reach a 'critical' point in their charge where they're too close and committed to be able to break away and avoid casualties. At that point, when you order a charge your unit will toss Pila at the oncoming cavalry, and with the ridiculous accuracy + size of the cavalry hit boxes it's open season. Immediately after expending Pila but before the cavalry come into contact, you can hit the button to form your legionaries into Fulcrum for the anti-cav bonuses. From the lightest melee/lancer cavalry to the heaviest cataphract-archetype shock lancers, cavalry cannot ever hope to engage a cohort of Romans with unspent Pila unless they're hopelessly tangled in melee. Even those already engaged, so long as they are only engaged to one facing they can still do this absurd Pila+Fulcrum cavalry stopper.

    It's a little bit silly to see a cavalry unit charging the rear-facing of legionaries suddenly turned on by the legionaries breaking from an infantry melee to discharge Pila, hastily form an incomplete Fulcrum, subsequently rout the oncoming horse, and return to melee with the enemy infantry.

    The only thing I've seen going for Hoplites is that against regular legionaries and pre-reform variants, they can actually go toe-to-toe whilst in phalanx and make the Romans pay heavily even after being disrupted and softened by Pila.

    As it stands, Rome just seems too binary a faction to play, with gung-ho legionary tactics and an uber homogeneous army being more than sufficient to break and rout most heterogeneous Hellenic-type factions that rely on front-safe phalanx/pike phalanx. While rushing for the Reforms to legions seems to be the most optimal for playing as Rome, it's not even necessary... Hastati are more than capable of punching several classes above their weight when taking into account good use of Pila.

    Looking above, the amount of times Pila is mentioned makes me think there's something that needs to be toned down for Rome. As it is now, I think pre-charge projectile weapons for melee units should be ONE shot per trooper in the unit, with Romans being the exception and given TWO to expend prior to melee. Just half the reload time (or whatever is necessary) to make legionaries expend both Pila before the charge and significantly reduce their effectiveness so that it takes both volleys to achieve anything close to what they can do now with just one.
    Last edited by LawL_LawL; January 25, 2014 at 06:01 PM.

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    Default Re: Carthage OP?

    I am playing on normal and I am not experiencing any units being OP...I am concerned a bit as to how hostile factions seem to be towards Carthage. I am playing Carthage and pretty much every AI faction that "knows" us is at war with us. It got so bad I lost all of my starting provinces minus my main walled cities. I am holed up there (have been for at least 30 rounds/turns) and I cannot seem to break out or expand (all my $ is now spent on additional garrison troops). I have yet to wage war aggressively against anyone and yet, I am the hated kingdom of the Mediterranean. Is this animosity towards Carthage an expected norm for DeI? Thanks!

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    Default Re: Carthage OP?

    Quote Originally Posted by RexJayden View Post
    I am playing on normal and I am not experiencing any units being OP...I am concerned a bit as to how hostile factions seem to be towards Carthage. I am playing Carthage and pretty much every AI faction that "knows" us is at war with us. It got so bad I lost all of my starting provinces minus my main walled cities. I am holed up there (have been for at least 30 rounds/turns) and I cannot seem to break out or expand (all my $ is now spent on additional garrison troops). I have yet to wage war aggressively against anyone and yet, I am the hated kingdom of the Mediterranean. Is this animosity towards Carthage an expected norm for DeI? Thanks!
    You're playing as the Barcids. I noticed when I played as the Junia that those diplomatic aversion penalties are significant.

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    Default Re: Carthage OP?

    As much as I love Carthage, it can be fairly upsetting to play this faction, especially with the Barcid dynasty. For example, the dynasty-independent -40% mercenary upkeep is awesome, but the mercenary pools are so limited as to really hurt a bit of the authentic experience let alone really filling in the gaping holes in the roster. As a brief aside, I know the DeI team has plans in the future for a full AoR and probably a lot of tweaks to the mercenary system so this should be resolved, i'm just merely speaking from an "as it stands" point of view. Anyway, the cultural boost is wonderful, the +5% boost to agricultural wealth is so-so, and the diplomatic penalty is hell- and as far as I know, it is not an accurate portrayal. Furthermore I can't think of any other faction in the game that has such a sweeping penalty. I mean, there are negatives such as hellenic rivalry, eastern overlords, etc, but NOTHING that affects your interactions with EVERYONE. That being said- I don't quite understand the diplomatic penalty with the Barcids. Didn't the Barcid dynasty mastermind the expansion into Iberia/Spain? Didn't Hannibal have a knack for having foreigners in his armies (Iberians, Gauls, some Italians)? I can see the penalty applying to Rome and Hellenic factions. I'm careful to say "Latin factions" because of the connection with the Etruscan league.

    I half wonder if CA wrote this as a huge historical troll "herr herr Carthage and Hannibal specifically = barbarian goons" when in reality such sentiment couldn't be further from the truth. You could potentially make an argument that the Seleucids have it worse off with their being trapped in the East + Eastern aversion + satrapies declaring war but they have such a huge roster of troops to deal with anything and everything that it's not so bad. It is difficult to try to establish client states so you can recruit those Iberian or Gallic units when playing as the Barcids. You really have to get a few generals that path down the Rightful Sovereign authority line and into the Master of Statecraft for the diplomatic bonuses just to get yourself on somewhat of an even keel.

    To me, what would have made the most sense for the Barcid dynasty is:
    First positive - an increase in campaign map movement (the logistics of crossing the Alps let alone a decade plus long campaign in Italy sort of point to this)
    Second positive - a decrease to corruption seeing as how Hannibal enacted some sweeping financial and political reforms that only further enraged his corrupt political enemies
    Negative - internal power struggles similar to the Arverni (or some penalties that affect the political menu because of the political backstabbing from Hanno II the Great (iirc) OR cultural aversion with Rome & Hellenic factions.

    Ultimately, I feel the faction & dynasty system needs a huge boost to further distinguish everything (i.e. three bonuses for a faction + one negative, 4 or more bonuses for a dynasty + 1~2 negatives). That is, if such a thing is possible of course. I understand that a Carthaginian campaign is supposed to be challenging, yet I can't help but feel as if the current setup from CA does not truly reflect the reality of the situation, nor does it really give you that lip-biting moment at the start of a new campaign regarding which faction/dynasty to play. I fully understand the attitude of wanting a greater challenge, and some folks may not want that, but aside from the love of Hannibal Barca and wanting to role-play the game, I (and possibly others ) have to pay a STEEP price when other dynasties and factions are clearly "the better choice" due to positions, rosters, and bonuses.

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    Libertus
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    Default Re: Carthage OP?

    Nice post Sigmagant, some nice ideas there. I especially like your barcid traits.

    I agree that Carthage needs some work, the current mercenary system makes the faction bonus useless IMO as hiring mercenary armies is just impractical at the moment. The roman auxiliary system would better represent carthages armies I feel. Maybe replace the mercenary upkeep bonus with a naval one of some kind.

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    Default Re: Carthage OP?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigmagnat View Post
    Anyway, the cultural boost is wonderful, the +5% boost to agricultural wealth is so-so, and the diplomatic penalty is hell- and as far as I know, it is not an accurate portrayal. Furthermore I can't think of any other faction in the game that has such a sweeping penalty. I mean, there are negatives such as hellenic rivalry, eastern overlords, etc, but NOTHING that affects your interactions with EVERYONE. That being said- I don't quite understand the diplomatic penalty with the Barcids. Didn't the Barcid dynasty mastermind the expansion into Iberia/Spain? Didn't Hannibal have a knack for having foreigners in his armies (Iberians, Gauls, some Italians)? I can see the penalty applying to Rome and Hellenic factions. I'm careful to say "Latin factions" because of the connection with the Etruscan league.
    The Junia (Brutii) family of Rome has a -25 to all factions penalty, +10% wealth from agriculture and +4 public order, they're the same as Barcids except that the wealth from agriculture is 10, not 5. I think the families/dynasties should be redone and have a them about them. The Real Roman Army mod did something like this, there was a nobility-supporting one, a pleb-supporting one, and one more that was something like Imperialist I believe. It made a little more sense.

    I half wonder if CA wrote this as a huge historical troll "herr herr Carthage and Hannibal specifically = barbarian goons" when in reality such sentiment couldn't be further from the truth. You could potentially make an argument that the Seleucids have it worse off with their being trapped in the East + Eastern aversion + satrapies declaring war but they have such a huge roster of troops to deal with anything and everything that it's not so bad. It is difficult to try to establish client states so you can recruit those Iberian or Gallic units when playing as the Barcids. You really have to get a few generals that path down the Rightful Sovereign authority line and into the Master of Statecraft for the diplomatic bonuses just to get yourself on somewhat of an even keel.
    CA designed Carthage to be hard, not the way they were represented historically. They did the same thing with the Seleucids. It's unhistorical and counter-intuitive, and irritates me to no end. In Europa Barbarorum, Carthage was considered an "easy" faction along with Rome, and the Seleucids were hard-ish.

    To me, what would have made the most sense for the Barcid dynasty is:
    First positive - an increase in campaign map movement (the logistics of crossing the Alps let alone a decade plus long campaign in Italy sort of point to this)
    Second positive - a decrease to corruption seeing as how Hannibal enacted some sweeping financial and political reforms that only further enraged his corrupt political enemies
    Negative - internal power struggles similar to the Arverni (or some penalties that affect the political menu because of the political backstabbing from Hanno II the Great (iirc) OR cultural aversion with Rome & Hellenic factions.
    Looks good, makes sense. Exactly what I was talking about with a theme.

    Ultimately, I feel the faction & dynasty system needs a huge boost to further distinguish everything (i.e. three bonuses for a faction + one negative, 4 or more bonuses for a dynasty + 1~2 negatives). That is, if such a thing is possible of course. I understand that a Carthaginian campaign is supposed to be challenging, yet I can't help but feel as if the current setup from CA does not truly reflect the reality of the situation, nor does it really give you that lip-biting moment at the start of a new campaign regarding which faction/dynasty to play. I fully understand the attitude of wanting a greater challenge, and some folks may not want that, but aside from the love of Hannibal Barca and wanting to role-play the game, I (and possibly others ) have to pay a STEEP price when other dynasties and factions are clearly "the better choice" due to positions, rosters, and bonuses.
    Why does Carthage have to be hard? Make their start historical. There are plenty of factions that historically had it pretty rough. Pontus, Galatia, all of the Barbarians, the Greeks, Armenia. No shortage of factions to play if you want a challenge.

    I don't play Carthage, but looking at the traits, Magonid is the best dynasty. Corruption can be overcome easily by turning the Africa province into a commercial monster. (4 ports, temple, slave trader, industry building, etc.)
    Last edited by Black9; January 26, 2014 at 03:57 PM. Reason: Counter-intuitive, not unintuitive. Derp.

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    Default Re: Carthage OP?

    Ugh, that moment you hit "post reply" after having a time-consuming response and it's logged you out but the restore auto-save isn't working

    Anyhow, it actually gives me the opportunity to start a new thread on the whole subject I was delving into without hijacking this one. Speaking of which- my apologies for possibly, maybe, kinda, mostly already having done so DaGrenadier :3
    If it's any consolation- I play Carthage most of the time and find that if I don't shut down Rome A.S.A.P. then i'll get reamed once the legit Legions hit the field :/

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    Default Re: Carthage OP?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigmagnat View Post
    Ugh, that moment you hit "post reply" after having a time-consuming response and it's logged you out but the restore auto-save isn't working
    My condolences. I'll give a moment of silence for your lost words.

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    Default Re: Carthage OP?

    I really appreciate your posts Black9, Sigmagnat, Phillysouljah, and Dogplaying poker. I was playing as the Barcids and found the going just too tough for now. I am probably going to stop that campaign since I am expecting the Patch 9 implementation on steam. I am just glad I was not crazy in how hostile the AI factions were towards me. Thanks. +rep to you all.

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    Default Re: Carthage OP?

    Thanks man

    I agree- that Barcid campaign is ROUGH. Interestingly enough, whenever I can overcome the lack of desire to play Rome (sorry, true Son of Carthage here ) I usually pick Junia and it is nowhere near as hard. A lot of that has to do with starting position and the rest = legionaries trolololol

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    Default Re: Carthage OP?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigmagnat View Post
    Thanks man

    I agree- that Barcid campaign is ROUGH. Interestingly enough, whenever I can overcome the lack of desire to play Rome (sorry, true Son of Carthage here ) I usually pick Junia and it is nowhere near as hard. A lot of that has to do with starting position and the rest = legionaries trolololol
    And all that past history stuff. Carthage starts off in the red with basically everyone. Historically, I'm not sure if they were that poorly off or not, so I can't comment on that but I don't think that was the case. As far as I know, Rome was the only real enemy that the Carthaginians had.

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    Default Re: Carthage OP?

    No. Do not redo the harsh diplomatic penalties. For those who do not like them, just play another family.

    I need them, otherwise the game is too easy for me. I was already using harder economy and all that, and the only challenging SP campaign I ever got was as the Junia (Rome) and Barcids (Carthage).

    By the way, you can use your first Generals' levels for "Man of the State" and then go for the "Cultural affinity" diplomacy trait which will gradually decrease your family's inbuilt penalty. And as Carthage, your only way to survive with the Barcids on Legendary is to rush the hostile Spaniards, buy favours with all others early, stick to your allies in case of war, train Generals in diplomacy (no excuses), and then continue boosting your economy. Remember not to have a full standing army, only keep your stacks at 50% and recruit additional units in case you cannot avoid attacking. Play defensive for 100 turns, concentrate your expenses on primarily on diplomacy, secondary on economy, tertiary military tech, then roll out into Spain.


    "Hail the German tribes, conquerors of Rome!"

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    RexJayden's Avatar Discens
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    Default Re: Carthage OP?

    Thanks for the advice Ritterlichvon86. +Rep to you as well. Good discussion.

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    Default Re: Carthage OP?

    Eh.... Carthage seems whatever...
    Im playing VH/hard as Rome atm and on Turn 15 or so. So far I've taken 3 cities from them, including their Capital. It was 4 cities, but they took back that Fish Island. But non the less, their empire is basically split in 2.
    Only thing that seemed to be a threat is their allies/slave states with their full stacks. But i just beat a 7500 man army of them with about 2800( lost only 500 ) when they tried to get Carthage's Capital back.
    Last edited by ColdBlo0d; January 27, 2014 at 07:19 PM.

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    LawL_LawL's Avatar Hastatas Posterior
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    Default Re: Carthage OP?

    Quote Originally Posted by ColdBlo0d View Post
    Eh.... Carthage seems whatever...
    Im playing VH/hard as Rome atm and on Turn 15 or so. So far I've taken 3 cities from them, including their Capital. It was 4 cities, but they took back that Fish Island. But non the less, their empire is basically split in 2.
    Only thing that seemed to be a threat is their allies/slave states with their full stacks. But i just beat a 7500 man army of them with about 2800( lost only 500 ) when they tried to get Carthage's Capital back.
    This is precisely what I meant with my earlier post. As others have stated with "legionaries = trolololol" Rome is just a face-roll faction. Even as the Junia, there is literally nothing for you to fear. The campaign auto-resolve vastly over-values peasant/mob units, and very light rear-echelon troops, and skirmishers to some extent. If you always play your battles as Hellenic or Roman armies, you will almost always win even with a 3 or 4 to 1 ratio of opposing troops, provided they're not Roman or top-tier Hellenic.

    I love playing Rome because of the history and thematic feel of the first and nearly only homogeneous army of the ancient world, but the challenge aspect simply isn't there without opting for sub-par choices with families and playing on VH/Legendary in order to give the AI compensation for your brokenly powerful legionaries.

    Sorry for derailing, back on the topic of Carthage, I've tried as Barcids and Hannonids now, both of which seem to be sub-par to Magonids from the description of family traits at least. The thing I don't understand about Carthage and the way CA implemented them is why they're so badly on by their starting conditions. It would be really nice if Carthage, or maybe specifically Barcid family players, had the ability to build mercenary-tree buildings to recruit foreign troops from the AoR adjacent (IE Only own Spanish provinces but can recruit Gallic troops, or use the beach-head in Sicily to recruit dissenting Italians, etc). Without access rather early on to foreign troops, Carthage just seems to be cornered into spear-spam with a sub-par roster on the whole. With their main enemy intended to be Rome, the disadvantages just don't seem reasonable. I would've thought it to make sense that Rome and Carthage were the factions in the spot-light for the grand campaign, with Rome leaning towards a simpler beginner-friendly faction whilst Carthage would be rewarding to play for veterans who already know what they're doing. As it is the challenge isn't from a well built campaign that's interesting to play, it's challenging due to mind-bogglingly stupid features/circumstances.
    Last edited by LawL_LawL; January 27, 2014 at 09:53 PM.

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