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Thread: What is wrong with Rome II's design? Was it a Lack of Focus or was it just Rushed?

  1. #1

    Default What is wrong with Rome II's design? Was it a Lack of Focus or was it just Rushed?

    It's been a while since I played TW (Since November actually) but recently I convinced a friend to buy Shogun 2 FoTS and we were playing the multiplayer campaign together when suddenly it hit me as to why I did not like Rome II as much as I should have. No it wasn't the large amount of bugs those can reasonably be patched, it was the questionable design decisions and the the clear lack of focus that seems apparent in the game.To clarify my position and inherent bias of the game I'll put together a simple review explaining why I feel the game was not fun in my opinion. This game is playable but that says very little many games are playable but lack soul and polish a game can be playable but still be boring it and bug filled. Skyrim had many bugs on release and still does *cough bucket head* ahem sorry bout that.


    I AM A HUMAN AND THEREFORE VERY BIASED. Please accept that ALL reviews are subjective. That said I've put in a decent 95 hours into the game 45 on a Role-Play (Rome) play through and 20 on a Steam-roll (Rome)play through with the others spent on a learning play through at release (Rome/Athens/Gaul). As you can tell I like playing Rome a lot (yes I'm a Roman fan boy)


    I dislike most of the design choices taken in Rome II, much of which I feel wasn't necessarily put in to dumb down the game an make it accessible (though it could be argued it was) but in the game designers minds actually provided extra depth/Challenge/Fun.


    These decisions include:


    1) The reduction of options in Cities evolution.
    I was acceptive on this in Shogun 2 because it made sense in the context and was done well. Every City if focused on had potential, you could capture a city with one build slot you can grow it to five. Rome II completely throws this out the door giving you arbitrary city limits Rome having less build slots than other cities? Small towns not getting walls? Excuse me but I'm pretty sure Pompeii was a Small town yet it still had walls and Syracuse (which arguably should be a capital) definable should have walls. This does not make sense in the context of Rome II. In Shogun II you are a Daimyo a military leader it makes sense that you would be focusing on only the key buildings that lead to a victory and not having to deal with building everything imaginable like massive infrastructure, hell the gradual road system would have made more sense here. In Rome II you play as the first true National Governments in the case of Rome, Carthage, Successor States or Egypt yet you are basically limited artificially and more so than in Shogun 2? What the hell! It doesn't make sense that you should be limited from a historical stand point BUT this is a game so let's look at it from a game play point of view. Game design 101 tells us that this is an Artificial Limitation, Artificial Limitations in a game are awful and though every game has them the job of a designer is to make them feel organic and natural, compare Call of Duty's Invisible Wall arena to Red Orchestra 2's "Deserters will be shot!" I know which one I'd prefer. Hell compare Rome I to Rome II's approach Population and Money limited you in Rome I doesn't that feel more natural? In Rome II you are given the Limitation of Money and Space derived from and animation gimmick... what? Please understand gimmicks are meant to enhance and expand the features not be features in their own right. This is justified as a way to add challenge it is something it does do. If that was their intention in the design process then good on them, they succeeded in increasing challenge at the expense of player freedom.


    TL;DR City Evolution falls short of every other TW title save perhaps Empire/Napoleon:Total War it was made more "challenging" at the expense of player freedom. Design Mentality = Challenge> Player Freedom


    2)The Food System/Squalor System
    Really? This again? I absolutely despise artificial difficulty and this by far is the worst design choice I've ever seen in a Total War game. What the hell were the ancient people of the world some sort of proto-communist utopian society who believed the government should centrally hand out food to everyone? I thought we got rid of this feature in FoTS. At least it kind of made sense in a feudal setting (i.e medieval and Renaissance Europe/Japan)it does not make sense in the Classical Era. So let's look at it from a gameplay stand point shall we. While it was reasonably handled in shogun 2 (were only city expansion and markets needed food) the designers of Rome II threw logic out the door and said "Screw it let's make sewers cost food" wait what? It was done to force you into this micro game of balancing your cities and again limiting player freedom to create more of an artificial challenge. It limits player freedom by forcing you to build food building which in turn force you to build temples which require food need I go on? Needless to say coupled with the limited building options and space leads to you to make very little real choices in the development of your cities and villages.
    The squalor system is ridiculous and quite frankly worst that Rome I's something I can not believe I'm saying. It couples with the the food system to create them micro game mentioned above. In game a barracks/blacksmith somehow generates as much squalor as a fishery? I'd rather live near a barracks as opposed to a fishery. It's overdone and limits player freedom

    Edit: Now I was planning to address multiple points (Allot more than 2) but I have spent allot of time doing these 2 and people may not be interested (also I accidentally posted early) so I'll leave it at these two and see if interest compels me to finish of my last points. It just feels a bit too long to keep interest among anyone (perhaps a video would of been better).
    Last edited by Cadian Guardsman; January 21, 2014 at 02:19 AM. Reason: Accidental posted Incomplete

  2. #2

    Default Re: What is wrong with Rome II's design? Was it a Lack of Focus or was it just Rushed?

    i'd say both... plus, probably the pressure from SEGA to conzolize the game more.. so many things that worked great in previous games were just ignored, removed or reworked to work worse.. naval combat is practically the worst naval combat since Shogun 1, YES, no naval combat in SHOGUN 1, is better than this mess.. and land battles are not much better. Its impossible to keep some kind of a structure in battle, AI units are working alone, ignoring their surroundings, AI is completely scripted for certain triggers, so it ends up reshuffling whole army left to right just because some levy javeliners got into range of single unit... mind you - this hunts this game since ETW, and was never taken care of, even with people complaining about it for several years...

    i could write for several hours about issues this game has. but im affraid its pointless. CA wont change anything in this game design. for them its closed thing, and they only focus on technical issues, nothing else. Only new features they introduce, you will have to buy with DLCs, anyway you can forget about actually fixing existing mechanisms.. look at previous games.. they share same mistakes over and over.. bugs of Empire are in Rome 2... CA just doesnt care to fix them.

  3. #3

    Default Re: What is wrong with Rome II's design? Was it a Lack of Focus or was it just Rushed?

    Quote Originally Posted by JaM View Post
    i could write for several hours about issues this game has. but im affraid its pointless. CA wont change anything in this game design. for them its closed thing, and they only focus on technical issues, nothing else. Only new features they introduce, you will have to buy with DLCs, anyway you can forget about actually fixing existing mechanisms.. look at previous games.. they share same mistakes over and over.. bugs of Empire are in Rome 2... CA just doesnt care to fix them.
    That's another reason why I stopped I realised at around the last sentence I was wasting my time pointing out flaws that have been there since Empire yet CA constantly keep making things worst despite the "Old Guard" TW fans protests. I guess there just isn't a place for the type of player who like depth even if it did allow them to get ridiculously over powered.

  4. #4

    Default Re: What is wrong with Rome II's design? Was it a Lack of Focus or was it just Rushed?

    Oh how I have missed you, carefully and eloquently put arguments that demonstrate why Rome II basicly sucks...

    Wait... What is that sound I hear from afar?? **** Woof Woof Woof Woof!!****

    RELEASE THE FANBOY HOUNDS!!!

  5. #5
    TheCenturion24's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: What is wrong with Rome II's design? Was it a Lack of Focus or was it just Rushed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tullaris View Post
    Oh how I have missed you, carefully and eloquently put arguments that demonstrate why Rome II basicly sucks...

    Wait... What is that sound I hear from afar?? **** Woof Woof Woof Woof!!****

    RELEASE THE FANBOY HOUNDS!!!
    With all due respect, the direct opposite to fanboys is no better. Seriously. Ditch the whole fanboy/hater thing, because it's one of the prime reasons some of these forum threads become painful to read.

    There is a real difference between a well thought out, personal opinion based post and a pointless jab at other people, whether that be either enjoying or disliking the game. There is NO NEED to divide the forums into lovers and haters, and I'm getting sick of reading the frustrating fighting between the two. Ultimately; grow up.

  6. #6

    Default Re: What is wrong with Rome II's design? Was it a Lack of Focus or was it just Rushed?

    I think Rome 2's main problem is basically what CA calls "streamlining" and some in the community "dumbing down".
    It is both, and neither.

    Several examples:
    - Army management: was a massive time-waster in previous game to get your reinforcements to your main armies, especially late game you'd have hundreds of single-unit armies running around.
    - Family tree: never used it much myself, but I did read people spend hours with it for roleplaying
    - Retainer management: bit of a cross between the previous two, I'd have my fail generals transport retainers to where they were needed
    - City management: building was a huge hassle without parallel building slots, plus people were able to open their 3D city views
    And even though you wouldn't need to get into all of them to spend a lot of time, you could and were able to choose in which.

    In R2 they're all gone and even if you don't mind losing the features you didn't indulge in, you'd still have lost another one you would... that is also the reason user surveys fall short, because if you ask people "would you mind if we cut feature X", there'd always only be a minority to want to use each one. The magic lay in the multitude of things you could do.
    Now in one turn you go through your 5 armies and agents, look through your 20 cities; that takes 2-5 minutes per turn and you still have the feeling you missed something although you didn't.
    And it doesn't help that end of turn feels like it takes almost as long as your own turn.

    So basically R2 doesn't give players anything to be OCD about, and turns out that is not a good thing.
    Last edited by daniu; January 21, 2014 at 08:53 AM.
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  7. #7
    Kinjo's Avatar Taiko
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    Default Re: What is wrong with Rome II's design? Was it a Lack of Focus or was it just Rushed?

    I miss building simple things like roads and infrastructure which I felt FOTS did a great job at that. Also I like to see my provinces grow in population, wealth, and overall size. One of my favorite things to do in FOTS was to set my taxes low to get the boost in growth which would help me grow some very wealthly provinces down the road. The whole growth thing in Rome II doesn't really mean anything as far as I can tell when it comes to wealth it just helps you get that next building slot.

    Here are some of the issues on my list

    -The Ui is still annoying and will never grow on me for units, buildings, and tech tree.

    -No family tree, no unique faction leader model, no faction leader titles, no heir selection, and no faction leader trait. What the heck happened here?

    -Diplomacy is a farce and still doesn't deliver and some basic options are missing. For example (End war against, Gift Region, Reviving destroyed factions (like in Shogun 2), and Annexing Client States) to name a few.

    -Melee blobbing around gates, wall breaches, and bridges is pretty broken on large settings with massive armies.

    -No cavalry standard bearers and musicians for unit commands.
    Last edited by Kinjo; January 21, 2014 at 05:37 AM.

  8. #8
    Modestus's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: What is wrong with Rome II's design? Was it a Lack of Focus or was it just Rushed?

    Reading this type of OP just makes me feel depressed unfortunately RTW2 is what it is, I am not surprised by what happened with regards to the combat but I am surprised by how shallow CA made the campaign, for years people have asked for more depth and yet CA do the exact opposite, all I can say is what a load of twits.

  9. #9

    Default Re: What is wrong with Rome II's design? Was it a Lack of Focus or was it just Rushed?

    From the technical side, I have come to the conclusion that it's primarily incompetence and greed (taking money from Intel and spending a lot of development resources to add support for special Haswell HD4000 iGPU support which benefits maybe 1-2% of all buyers).
    Last edited by A Barbarian; January 21, 2014 at 06:47 AM.

  10. #10

    Default Re: What is wrong with Rome II's design? Was it a Lack of Focus or was it just Rushed?

    Basicly all they had to do was take Shogun 2's core elements, revamp them with a real political system (I'm actually fine with the army system too) and call it Rome 2

  11. #11

    Default Re: What is wrong with Rome II's design? Was it a Lack of Focus or was it just Rushed?

    I would say both, but they where going too release in nov and we all know how mutch work rome 2 still needs so it properly still was going too be a bad release.maybe if they sould have released it in sept 2014
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  12. #12

    Default Re: What is wrong with Rome II's design? Was it a Lack of Focus or was it just Rushed?

    i think the root cause if Rome 2 failure can be tracked back to time when CA started to think about next Rome total war game.. They failed to do a proper research of what players want to have in game, and instead, cared about reviewers opinions (metacritics score) in the first place.. this gave them high initial scores in reviews, but we all know how this approach backfired...

  13. #13
    Hazbones's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: What is wrong with Rome II's design? Was it a Lack of Focus or was it just Rushed?

    Quote Originally Posted by daniu View Post
    So basically R2 doesn't give players anything to be OCD about, and turns out that is not a good thing.
    Ding! Ding! Ding!

    That's it for me. You hit it right on the head.

    Even trying to get excited enough to spend the hours modding this game is hard to do. I actually get more motivation thinking about what I could further do with Shogun 2 than trying R2.

  14. #14
    Kinjo's Avatar Taiko
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    Default Re: What is wrong with Rome II's design? Was it a Lack of Focus or was it just Rushed?

    I would agree, when I played Shogun 2 for me a large part was building my faction leader into a good general and grooming the heir to take over. Not to mention assigning titles to different members of the cabinet was a nice touch as well. When I play Rome 2 I feel like my faction is a snake with it's head cut off.
    Last edited by Kinjo; January 21, 2014 at 08:34 AM.

  15. #15

    Default Re: What is wrong with Rome II's design? Was it a Lack of Focus or was it just Rushed?

    Well ots a combination of factors.

    First a la k of proper knowledge of history and related events and cultures.
    Then a rushed pressure for release
    Finally a poor gameplay design based on the above two factors.

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  16. #16
    Evan MF's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: What is wrong with Rome II's design? Was it a Lack of Focus or was it just Rushed?

    Quote Originally Posted by daniu View Post
    I think Rome 2's main problem is basically what CA calls "streamlining" and some in the community "dumbing down".
    It is both, and neither.

    Several examples:
    - Army management: was a massive time-waster in previous game to get your reinforcements to your main armies, especially late game you'd have hundreds of single-unit armies running around.
    - Family tree: never used it much myself, but I did read people spend hours with it for roleplaying
    - Retainer management: bit of a cross between the previous two, I'd have my fail generals transport retainers to where they were needed
    - City management: building was a huge hassle without parallel building slots, plus people were able to open their 3D city views
    And even though you wouldn't need to get into all of them to spend a lot of time, you could and were able to choose in which.
    ...
    So basically R2 doesn't give players anything to be OCD about, and turns out that is not a good thing.
    What people expected was for CA to develop those aspects of the game further, in conjunction with making the UI more efficient to use, especially in the long-term campaign gameplay. CA were rather unambitious and you could say lazy in not believing they could retain complexity with enjoyment. Instead what they did was strip the features themselves under this guise of 'streamlining'.

    It is understandable in some sense that with the larger map and faction quantity they wanted to gear the features to the more macro-level late-game gameplay, but what they failed to understand is that you NEED an early game with intricacy and meaningful micro-level involvement to get people hooked enough so that they have the motivation to keep playing and expand the scope of their campaign. People want to be sentimental for their generals, armies, cities, in the early game, they love to think back when they're at mid-late level, when it's become a bit more monotonous gameplay-wise, to their empire's early and small beginnings, to have that sense of achievement. You will only get that sense of achievement by letting players engage in customisation and deep interaction in the early stages of the campaign. CA simply have not understood what has made old games of theirs so enjoyable and replayable.
    Last edited by Evan MF; January 21, 2014 at 10:52 AM.

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    Default Re: What is wrong with Rome II's design? Was it a Lack of Focus or was it just Rushed?

    Incompetent and immature developers, bad business decisions by management.
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  18. #18
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    Default Re: What is wrong with Rome II's design? Was it a Lack of Focus or was it just Rushed?

    Rome II's design is largely ok. Main exception for me would be the political non-system. If people prefer the old family tree it must be really bad! Others might add the excessive role of transports. Finally, perhaps less immediately apparent, is the attempt to somehow try to be an authentic battle simulator and an a fast paced arcade game at the same time. That can only yield the worst of both worlds. Mainly, though, the game is hamstrung by poor execution. The blobs on the battlefield, the clueless besiegers, things like that. Things we can't expect to fix by modding either.
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  19. #19
    |Sith|Galvanized Iron's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: What is wrong with Rome II's design? Was it a Lack of Focus or was it just Rushed?

    Basicly everything they implemented to reduce micromanagement resulted in even more tedious micro management, everything from the constant levelling up of the agents to the repetive step by step province improving and the constant food-paranoia is just plain boring.

    What Rome should have done is cutting away all the ridicolous building management and have all provinces being managed and constantly auto-improved by the governors, so the decision would not be what to build in detail, but who to trust with managing your provinces, which would present you with the dilemma if you want to put someone skilled or someone loyal on the post. That would mean larger provinces of course to avoid the tedium of having 50 different governors...

    Barbarian provinces should have required a unification and a centralisation reformen before they could start being improved. Now it is just the same old wherever you go.
    Last edited by |Sith|Galvanized Iron; January 21, 2014 at 12:53 PM.
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  20. #20
    RedGuard's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: What is wrong with Rome II's design? Was it a Lack of Focus or was it just Rushed?

    honestly, I think CA forgot what their job was. It was to release a solid game that was both playable and fun. Instead they widened their focus too much, trying to bring the whole 'known' world on the map, thus adding hundreds of factions that were not in the previous games and hadn't really been attempted yet, trying this whole army system that no one asked for, the new walled and unwalled settlements that sounded good on paper but not in practice and the whole walking armies on water disaster.

    They basically tried to incorporate into the base game what modders do after its released and to top it off they dd a poor job. I think if the scope had been the same as Rome 1 everyone would have been happy, then a mod like DEI could come along later and expand the map and add things, instead they wanted all that in from the start and the size just imploded on itself leading to features being stripped out that had been in there since shogun 1 that weren't finished properly because the focus was on the new . They may have been able to pull it off, if they had been given more than 2 years to do it, but they should of realized, "hey it took us two years to pull off Shogun 2 that was much smaller and more focused, so lets have more time to do something that's much bigger and encompassing the whole roman/ Greek world" but no, no one asked for that I think. Hubris

    Thats what I believe anyway. To answer the thread question it was the lack of focus that caused it to be rushed. I honestly don't think Sega had a damn thing to do with this disaster I think all of it falls on the creative management leader
    Last edited by RedGuard; January 21, 2014 at 02:43 PM.

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