[Faction Research] Angband and Orcs

[Nelduin]

Hello folk,

Milner needs good concept for Angband Faction and Orcs in general, so feel free to share any good picture or drawing you have found. Please note that they must be as much lore accurate as possible. The mod tries to follow Tolkien's vision.

[Nelduin]

I found some interesting concepts :




I like the left guy of the following picture:

[Milner]

Thanks, Nelduin

Werewolves...are they as wargos or they have a look more more similar to men -as in werewolves terror films-?

[Nelduin]

http://www.realelvish.net/vampandwerewolf.php

That website, based on quotes from the books, said that werewolves didn't have humanoid shape.

[Milner]

They are similar to Huan, right?

[Nelduin]

I see them as a 'dark side' or a 'shadow counterpart' of Huan. But I'm not a lore expert. Jagmodo is quite active in Fourth Age: Total War's forum, and I assume he is more or less a lore expert. I will ask him if he can give us his opinion .

[Jagmodo]

That’s right Nelduin, Werewolves in Tolkien’s works do not have humanoid shape. They are creatures in wolf form, breeded by Morgoth; and at least some of them were inhabited by evil spirits (probably lesser fallen Maiar). That’s very good link you have provided and description of Carcharoth in it could be used for your Werewolf unit design, but smaller of course.

Basically, the image you are looking for is really big scary wolf with red eyes.

Sauron also took the shape of Wherewolf among others. Also, it is proposed that Wargs have descended from Morgoth’s Werewolves… However, it is not a completely clear topic and some things are still debated among fans…

I am glad if I have helped, but already everything was in the Nelduin’s link…

P.S. You have bring smile to my face when you have considered me of all the people as a lore expert. I do not consider myself worthy… There are many people on TWC that have much greater knowledge than me. Two most famous lore masters (, they are indeed that) are Ngugi and Macilrille and they often dwell here:

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...-Discussion-II

P.P.S. Really impressive progress on the mod so far!

[Nelduin]

Maybe there are better lore masters than you, but I remember following discussions between you and Aradan regarding FATW, of which I couldn't understand even two sentences . Thanks for taking the time to answer us, anyway .

[Milner]

Many thanks for your clear reply, Jagmodo

[Hanti]

That's one of Alan Lee's concepts. Orcs as lesser men, properly dressed, sensible armed, just smaller, weaker and uglier.
Notice: they can wear non-grey, non-black cloths

[Milner]

This orc from Alan Lee (the bigger with the spear) seems as a similar concept that i had on mind for the first time...with old clothes, chainmail (dirty), ugly faces, a few smaller to elves, and with grey skin to their bodies (and also with face mask)...but perhaps is a concept that don't like to many supporters of the mod (or i'm wrong...)

[Ngugi]

Yes, Jagmodo is correct (and I have to thank him for the kind words )

The idea of 'humanoid werewolves' is quite a modern one, and not the one Tolkien had in mind; his vision was indeed the traditional great, wicked and cunning wolves. In his era it's either spirits taking the shape of wolves or spirits possesing wolf bodies

And ere long the evil creatures came even to Beleriand, over passes in the mountains, or up from the south through the dark forests. Wolves there were, or creatures that walked in wolf-shapes, and other fell beings of shadow;
- Silmarillion; Of the Sindar

and Sauron brought werewolves, fell beasts inhabited by dreadful spirits that he had imprisoned in their bodies.
- Silmarillion; Of Beren and Lúthien

All in all wolf and werewolf are used as synonyms over and over, especially seen in the tale of Beren and Luthien;

and thus [Huan] too came under the doom of woe set upon the Noldor, and it was decreed that he should meet death, but not until he encountered the mightiest wolf that would ever walk the world.
...
But when the wolf came for Beren, Felagund put forth all his power, and burst his bonds; and he wrestled with the werewolf, and slew it with his hands and teeth;
...
Therefore [Sauron] sent a wolf to the bridge. But Huan slew it silently. Still Sauron sent others one by one; and one by one Huan took them by the throat and slew them. Then Sauron sent Draugluin, a dread beast, old in evil lord and sire of the werewolves of Angband.
...
[Huan] turned aside therefore at Sauron's isle, as they ran northward again, and he took thence the ghastly wolf-hame of Draugluin, and the bat-fell of Thuringwethil.
...
Then Morgoth recalled the doom of Huan, and he chose one from among the whelps of the race of Draugluin; and he fed him with his own hand upon living flesh, and put his power upon him. Swiftly the wolf grew, until he could creep into no den, but lay huge and hungry before the feet of Morgoth.
...
There Beren slunk in wolf's form beneath his throne;
...
Lúthien was spent, and she had not time nor strength to quell the wolf. But Beren strode forth before her, and in his right hand he held aloft the Silmaril. Carcharoth halted, and for a moment was afraid. 'Get you gone, and fly!' cried Beren; 'for here is afire that shall consume you, and all evil things.' And he thrust the Silmaril before the eyes of the wolf.
...
In that moment Huan leaped from the thicket upon the back of the Wolf, and they fell together fighting bitterly; and no battle of wolf and hound has been like to it, for in the baying of Huan was heard the voice of the horns of Oromë and the wrath of the Valar, but in the howls of Carcharoth was the hate of Morgoth and malice crueller than teeth of steel;
- Silmarillion; Of Beren and Lúthien

That werewolves are not the same thing as wargs we know;

Not all his servants and chattels are wraiths! There are orcs and trolls, there are wargs and werewolves;
- FotR; Many Meetings

So what then of the cries of Gandalf?

Stooping like a cloud, [Gandalf] lifted a burning branch and strode to meet the wolves. They gave back before him. High in the air he tossed the blazing brand. It flared with a sudden white radiance like lightning; and his voice rolled like thunder.'Naur an edraith ammen! Naur dan i ngaurhoth!' he cried. *
There was a roar and a crackle, and the tree above him burst into a leaf and bloom of blinding flame. The fire leapt from tree-top to tree-top. The whole hill was crowned with dazzling light. The swords and knives of the defenders shone and flickered. The last arrow of Legolas kindled in the air as it flew, and plunged burning into the heart of a great wolf-chieftain. All the others fled.
...
When the full light of the morning came no signs of the wolves were to be found, and they looked in vain for the bodies of the dead. No trace of the fight remained but the charred trees and the arrows of Legolas lying on the hill-top. All were undamaged save one of which only the point was left.
'It is as I feared,' said Gandalf. 'These were no ordinary wolves hunting for food in the wilderness. Let us eat quickly and go!'
- FotR; The Ring Goes South


* translates into 'Fire save us! Fire drive back the werewolves!'

Thus we can speculate if at least some of those who attacked the Fellowship prior to Moria were actually not wolves nor Wargs, but werewolves - and no one apperently could tell the difference


EDIT: What images on Orcs concerns, as that's teh purpose, here's two others:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Milner]

Jagmodo was right about your skills...

100% clear, i think Ted Naismith's pic (Luthien and Beren disguise) may be the better concept to improve this unit...

Many thanks, Ngugi (we knew sometime ago, right?...i think, your nick and avatar are very familiar to me)

[Ngugi]

I've always considered it needed to provide the facts to make a discussion relevant, if it's that kind of debate at least hehe, so mainly become good at finding the sources and sharing them. And doing so is very informative, back in 2011 I didn't knew Tolkien's works well, but since I found them interesting to discuss I went to the sources, and soon enough people said I knew what I was speaking about, haha...

Yes, don't remember where we encountered each other, but we have spoken on TWC before indeed

[Jagmodo]

I just wanted to suggest that you can use some ideas/models from regrettably dead Middle – Earth: Total War.

It flowed lore closely, and after abandonment and passing of years project become open source. Also, I would offer to reupload it since the download links are dead. However, I see that Nelduin was the one actually uploading it on TWC (long time ago) and is also working/helping on this mod so you have already probably considered that option …

[Nelduin]

In fact, no . I didn't think about Middle-Earth: Total War because it is focused on Third Age while Silmarillion is about First Age. It's a shame that Thor the Bassist stopped worked on it and disappeared. It was a great mod! Maybe there is something to use indeed?

[Milner]

Is Middle Earth TW a open source?, i didn't knew...and we are using many open resources (1066 Conquest, Age of Vikings and Fanatics...).

[Jagmodo]

In fact, no . I didn't think about Middle-Earth: Total War because it is focused on Third Age while Silmarillion is about First Age. It's a shame that Thor the Bassist stopped worked on it and disappeared. It was a great mod! Maybe there is something to use indeed?

Yes, a shame indeed but that’s life…

Well, I mainly had in mind some orcish units (this thread is about them). Maybe few elven units could be salvageable as well.

Problem could be that they are of lesser quality compared to units in this mod (it’s an old mod after all). They would stand out in the negative way. Maybe new skins and some model repairs/tweaks could fix this problem. Otherwise, maybe they could be used only as an inspiration for the new units…

Is Middle Earth TW a open source?, i didn't knew...and we are using many open resources (1066 Conquest, Age of Vikings and Fanatics...).

Master of None, former FATW lead developer and very reputable modder, stated in the fourth post that it become open-source. I trust we can believe him.

[Milner]

Master of None, former FATW lead developer and very reputable modder, stated in the fourth post that it become open-source. I trust we can believe him.

Sure thing, i know about his work and tutorials, he's a modder with a high level of reputation .

Problem could be that they are of lesser quality compared to units in this mod (it’s an old mod after all).

It's not a problem, and the quality of ME's models are very similar to LotR's ones...of course, they need a deep rework on skins and some parts of models, i'll take a look on them, i don't remember too much how they are (i only remember the gondorian units).

Well, I mainly had in mind some orcish units (this thread is about them).

Tell us, please . Feel free, this is your home.

[Algaman]

Hello there, guys.
I´d like to make some suggestions to this thread:
I really like the concept of the first images the one from Alan Lee, and I agree with Milner´s reflextion, about it:

This orc from Alan Lee (the bigger with the spear) seems as a similar concept that i had on mind for the first time...with old clothes, chainmail (dirty), ugly faces, a few smaller to elves, and with grey skin to their bodies (and also with face mask)...but perhaps is a concept that don't like to many supporters of the mod (or i'm wrong...)

So it made me think about an orc race of the first age of mankind, (elves and men, as Tolkien understand it), different from the Third Age Orcs, and for that reason maybe the could be more "elven" kind, as The Sillmarillion tells, and with a very special diversity among them, some orc closer to an ugly elf, with dirty chainmail, spear, shield and the more "beast - ones", uglier orcs with primitive equipment...
And a special chapter for the Wargos, beasts I think as Jagmodo said, they are like wolves, but bigger and scarrier...