[SubMod] Slooower Battle submod

[BullGod]

Hi,
I wanted to propose a submod, or show you what kind of battles I like to play.
I enjoyed DeI, but felt battles were still a little bit too fast, so I've changed few things. I've tried to do it without interfering with DeI battle mechanics too much - just slow things down.

The motto I might choose to represent my mod could be this quote from from Vegetius' "De Re Militari":
"(...) Nor is anything of more consequence either on the march or in the line than that they should keep their ranks with the greatest exactness. For troops who march in an irregular and disorderly manner are always in great danger of being defeated. They should march with the common military step twenty miles in five summer-hours, and with the full step, which is quicker, twenty-four miles in the same number of hours. If they exceed this pace, they no longer march but run, and no certain rate can be assigned."

So, no more running around.

Changes in the mod include:
- every soldier's hit points are doubled.
- speed is greatly reduced. Greatly. This is the main change of this mod.
Almost all foot units walk with the speed of 1, which is the speed of very heavy infantry in DeI. Futhermore, Running speed has been reduced to be almost identical to walking speed. As a result, units don't run (they can still charge though). Only exception are light infantry units, that have running speed slightly higher. This way light infantry should be great at disengaging enemy f.ex.
Cavalry speed has been also reduced, but now it's great at flanking as it's the only really fast (although still slow) unit on map.
- projectiles reload time and damage (damage of slings and arrows mostly) have been tweaked to compensate.
- sling stones no longer roll and bounce after hitting the ground. No more little rock people escaping the battlefield.
- increased time needed to fully capture victory points (since it takes considerably longer to defeat enemy unit).
- all constructions (like buildings, walls, towers, gates and also deployables) have multiplied hit points to make sure they stay a little bit longer. Small structures, like fences, small walls,etc. are little more durable too, so light infantry f.ex are not likely to destoy them - you'll notice them jumping over the fances - while heavy marching infantry will quickly trample it into dust.
- base morale slightly tweaked, penalties for max casualties increased.
- Max threshold for fatigue have been increased somewhat, so completely exhausted units take a little bit longer to recover.
- Fatigue for marching and running set to 0. There is no effect on the battle whether units run, or not. Charging and fighting is little bit more tiring now. To rest unit needs to stop - walking no longer helps.
- Removed attack interval for more dynamic melees - decreased hit chance a little, to keep kill ratio at satifying (me) level.
- Removed standard running animation for heavy infantry. They didn't used it anyway and it caused "hiccup" animation on running, when it supposed to be marching.
This change has one interesting sideffect: when "running" officers tend to walk a little faster than the rest of the unit (this is weird actually, as I don't understand why they are faster - I suspect this caused "hiccup, when unit tried to catch up). Looks quite cool - they usually walk just about two steps in front of the unit.
- I've included animation changes from my mod that removes crouching when hidden (in my mod there's no speed difference between walking and crouching already):
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...k-No-crouching
I think some animation changes from DeI might interfere in case of some units, meaning they will still crouch, but I'll see into that later.
- I've tweaked rules table some, practically removing matched animation probability and also many knockback, knockdown chances when soldier is hit by a missile. It looked weird in my opinion sometimes - especially when javelin armed unit charged - created a wave of some kind within the target unit.
- defence penalty for a soldier when outnumbered - should, at least in theory, help units with FA on. I think it does, no matched animations help a little in that regard too.


- There is also included modified videos table that makes sure intros are not played when starting game (I was bored with hitting ESC couple of times every time I started the game). If by any chance you want this video thingy alone, jump here


I'm posting it here to show and propose something. Maybe you'll find that fun, but you might also find it too extreme (most of you probably will). It's not perfect, probably some things, like speed, or charge distance could be tweaked more, but Its an idea I wanted to throw in. Check it out. It made me really enjoy this mod.


To make it work, you should activate it higher in the load order than DeI. Mitch's Mod Manager is great for that.
Latest version, should work with DeI 0.75 and patch 9:
http://www.mediafire.com/download/9e...tleSubMOD.pack


Last version before patch 9:
http://www.mediafire.com/download/pc...tleSubMod.pack



If you like some part of the mod, but f.ex. you hate that some units can't run, or you think speed is too low, you can modify those values yourself.
Here's short instruction how:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

First of all, you'll need Daniu's Pack File Manager. Get it here:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...-%29-DBE-fixes
There's also his Warscape Modding Primer that you might want to read before starting modding:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...Modding-Primer
I'm sure there are tons of other tutorials how to use PFM.

Basically, after running the PFM, open my mod pack, located in your game Data folder.
In the left side window you'll see file structure packed inside the mod file. Unfold the "db" subfolder and you'll get few other subfolders. The one you'll be interested in, when changing speed is battle_entities_tables. Unfold it and you'll see "Bull_DeI_battle_entities" table. Select it and it will be shown in the right program window.

Here, you have all kinds of entities that game (DeI) uses for all soldiers on the battlefield. First colum is name of the entity, second one is type. Types are f.ex man, horse, camel etc.
next you have columns walk_speed and run_speed
If you want to change run speed, then this is what you need to change.

Easiest way:
On top of each column there is a selection box that will help you narrow your selection, so for "type" column expand the selection box and select "horse". This will show you only those entries that meet that type. (Just remember that if you change cavalry speed, you should also remember that camels,elephants and some artillery (chariots are under that category) should be tweaked too, probably)
Now you can change running speed in each row separately, or select miltiple cells (either by dragging the mouse cursor while pressing LMB, or selecting them one-by-one with CTRL pressed - basically, it works like any other editor of that kind, Excel f.ex.)
When you have multiple cells selected you can right-click on them and select "apply expression to selected cells" (great thing - thanks Daniu ). small window will pop-up with place to enter what kind of expression you want to apply. If you want all cells to have the same value - just enter it and press "Apply expression". If you want all different values to be increased by some amount - just enter the function (x+10 , x*2, x/2 ) It will appply that expression then.

When you're happy with changes - go to File menu, and select Save. That's it.

Let me know if something is unclear.

[Cidalsleepwalker]

Can't wait to get home and test this!

[Le_Swede]

How much slower are we talking? Roughly how long does a normal 20 vs 20 battle take?

[BullGod]

How much slower are we talking? Roughly how long does a normal 20 vs 20 battle take?

Depends on unit quality I guess, but I usually have about 20 minute battles (when I fight my early legionary army against regular, or levy spearmen plus skirmisher armies in my campaign). Longer, when I attack towns and there are less possibilities to outflank enemy. I've just finished attacking small settlement (port) against 5 unit army + garrison units and it took about 35 minutes.

[Leuchebreu2]

BullGod, I like the speed of the engagements but I failed to understand the rational behind Heavy troops only being able to walk...thanks for the mod BDW

[Le_Swede]

Seems like a nice pace. Will have to try this mod out sometime soon.

[Kshar]

Thank the lord ... slower movement speed. I can't fathom why DEI still has units running around on crack.

[BullGod]

BullGod, I like the speed of the engagements but I failed to understand the rational behind Heavy troops only being able to walk...thanks for the mod BDW

First of all, from my perspective AI tends to overuse it. I prefer watching armies walking towards eachother than running. Running should be reserved for very special situations only I think. That's what charging is for.
Secondly, for the most part of history, the biggest problem for a commander was to make sure his troops stay in formation. That's why all kinds of marching rythms were introduced and usually units weren't ordered to run on their own, because it was sure to break unit cohesion. Some sort of higher speed tempos, sure, but runnig - rather not.
Spartans, for example, were known for their great military skill, but from I've red this was to a great degree a matter of them being able to keep formation and walk in line as phalanx - something other citizen conscripted units were unable to do most of the time.

But what's more important - battle is slower, so it isn't possible to make your units run in a matter of seconds to fill a gap in your battle line and you need to think much more ahead. I just love to watch unit of heavies marching slowly towards a gap my units made and wandering if they're gonig to make it before enemy fills it. It's like watching avalanche in slow motion sometimes

That's the reasoning, although it's just my preference. Also maybe someone finds something interesting in my mod and it will lead to something better?

Thanks for trying it out.

[Aeimnestus]

Rather than increasing hitpoints, why not simply reduce the base-, minimal- and max hit chance (changed in the kv_rules table)? I did that and with minimal effort (just had to tone down missile damage to compensate) I managed to make battles last significantly longer (easily 30+ minutes for a 35 vs 35 units battle), and you won't end up with units that are basically immortal for the first 10 minutes of a fight due to the greatly increased hitpoints, before dropping like flies en-mass.

Thank the lord ... slower movement speed. I can't fathom why DEI still has units running around on crack.

Charge and walking speed are quite realistic in DeI, it's just running speed that is too fast. Easy to mod yourself though.

[BullGod]

Rather than increasing hitpoints, why not simply reduce the base-, minimal- and max hit chance (changed in the kv_rules table)? I did that and with minimal effort (just had to tone down missile damage to compensate) I managed to make battles last significantly longer (easily 30+ minutes for a 35 vs 35 units battle), and you won't end up with units that are basically immortal for the first 10 minutes of a fight due to the greatly increased hitpoints, before dropping like flies en-mass.

Could you explain this melee_hit_chance_base/min/max a little more? DeI has base 50, max 100. What does it mean in terms of rules exactly?

As for hitpoints, they're doubled for battle entities - that is every single soldier - not bonus HP for whole units in land_units_tables, which would result in what you describe.

[Aeimnestus]

Essentially, it determines the chance for a soldier to actually hit his target, and as far as I can tell its a separate roll made before attack/defense comes into play. The melee_hit_chance_base is the base hit chance in melee of all units. This base hit chance can be modified by certain debuffs, buffs and other battlefield conditions, but I do not know what exactly are the ones that affect it. In any case, the hit_chance_min determines the minimum hit chance units will always have. hit_chance_max determines the max hit chance a unit can possibly have.
I have mine currently at melee_hit_chance_base 4, melee_hit_chance_min 1 and melee_hit_chance_max 25
However I made a ton of other tweaks to compensate for this, to prevent battles from lasting a full hour. I especially tweaked morale so that units break faster as they sustain casualties. Units in my game will have a serious chance to break after sustaining 5-10% casualties, and are almost guaranteed to break when suffering more than 20% casualties. I also increased the charge bonus of all units somewhat.

[BullGod]

Your changes sound very interesting - especially morale.
Long battle, but with casualty ratio not resembling a massacre would be great.

Maybe you could post your modified database files here? I would very much like to have a look at them and use some values maybe, if they would work with my anemic walking speeds (Oh, I like those)

Actually, the only thing that I don't enjoy about those not running armies is the fact that they don't run when routing - they rather walk away But I hate seeing AI running all over the place more, so I must live with that.

As for hit chance - isn't unit attack value that's added to base hit chance?

[Cidalsleepwalker]

Essentially, it determines the chance for a soldier to actually hit his target, and as far as I can tell its a separate roll made before attack/defense comes into play. The melee_hit_chance_base is the base hit chance in melee of all units. This base hit chance can be modified by certain debuffs, buffs and other battlefield conditions, but I do not know what exactly are the ones that affect it. In any case, the hit_chance_min determines the minimum hit chance units will always have. hit_chance_max determines the max hit chance a unit can possibly have.
I have mine currently at melee_hit_chance_base 4, melee_hit_chance_min 1 and melee_hit_chance_max 25
However I made a ton of other tweaks to compensate for this, to prevent battles from lasting a full hour. I especially tweaked morale so that units break faster as they sustain casualties. Units in my game will have a serious chance to break after sustaining 5-10% casualties, and are almost guaranteed to break when suffering more than 20% casualties. I also increased the charge bonus of all units somewhat.

I would totally like to try your modifications too. Any chance you'll post it?

[Aeimnestus]

Your changes sound very interesting - especially morale.
Long battle, but with casualty ratio not resembling a massacre would be great.

Maybe you could post your modified database files here? I would very much like to have a look at them and use some values maybe, if they would work with my anemic walking speeds (Oh, I like those)

I'm afraid that won't be possible. Apart from DeI I'm using several submods, and I've modded both DeI and those submods directly. I've made so many interconnecting changes that uploading them won't be feasible. I may do a super realistic battles submod for the next big DeI release though.

As for hit chance - isn't unit attack value that's added to base hit chance?

Now that you mention it, I recall reading something like that on this forum. I'm not 100% certain how the battle mechanics work, but it matters little if its a separate roll or added to the attack value. Reducing it reduces kill rate in melee across the board.

[TWCassius]

I've tried this mod alongside matched combat be gone, and I liked it! Maybe some fine tunning, a bit more speed on the 'run' specially for cavalry... and I notice that cavalrymen when dismounted run faster than any other unit... possibly these changes aeimnesus proposed could be nice too.

But essentially what impressed me most was that by the fact units are much slower, that jiggling problem is much less visible, almost gone!! before units changed direction suddenly while runnig, in a very unnatural way, Plus with slow movement it's much more interesting to watch the combat, it's more believable!

I just had a siege battle 9k attacking 4k, it took 58 minutes. Maybe I'm better put no time limit for my battles lol

[Kshar]

Charge and walking speed are quite realistic in DeI, it's just running speed that is too fast. Easy to mod yourself though.

Yep, hence the running, in my comment.

Could you direct me to the table/value to be edited then praychance?

[BullGod]

I've tried this mod alongside matched combat be gone, and I liked it! Maybe some fine tunning, a bit more speed on the 'run' specially for cavalry... and I notice that cavalrymen when dismounted run faster than any other unit... possibly these changes aeimnesus proposed could be nice too.

But essentially what impressed me most was that by the fact units are much slower, that jiggling problem is much less visible, almost gone!! before units changed direction suddenly while runnig, in a very unnatural way, Plus with slow movement it's much more interesting to watch the combat, it's more believable!

I just had a siege battle 9k attacking 4k, it took 58 minutes. Maybe I'm better put no time limit for my battles lol

Glad you like it
I wanted to remove running from my games even before Rome, but with those earlier titles infantry always looked weird then, like running in slow motion. Now they made this better, so animation changes depending on unit speed, which is great for modding.
And as I've said, I know it isn't perfect mod. Just a rough idea.

Dismounted cavalry should run with speed of infantry type they represent then, so it depends on cavalry. Often it's light infantry entity (especially for skirmisher cavalry), so it might be faster than heavier ones, but shouldn't be faster than other light infantry types.

Yep, hence the running, in my comment.

Could you direct me to the table/value to be edited then praychance?

battle_entities_tables, 4th column, named run_speed

[tli004]

Awesome, going to try this out. The DeI guys are going to hate me for this but I've been using Alpha's realistic battle time with DeI cause it made the battles last longer. I think this might be the perfect answer. Thank you BullGod.

[Leuchebreu2]

First of all, from my perspective AI tends to overuse it. I prefer watching armies walking towards eachother than running. Running should be reserved for very special situations only I think. That's what charging is for.
Secondly, for the most part of history, the biggest problem for a commander was to make sure his troops stay in formation. That's why all kinds of marching rythms were introduced and usually units weren't ordered to run on their own, because it was sure to break unit cohesion. Some sort of higher speed tempos, sure, but runnig - rather not.
Spartans, for example, were known for their great military skill, but from I've red this was to a great degree a matter of them being able to keep formation and walk in line as phalanx - something other citizen conscripted units were unable to do most of the time.

But what's more important - battle is slower, so it isn't possible to make your units run in a matter of seconds to fill a gap in your battle line and you need to think much more ahead. I just love to watch unit of heavies marching slowly towards a gap my units made and wandering if they're gonig to make it before enemy fills it. It's like watching avalanche in slow motion sometimes

That's the reasoning, although it's just my preference. Also maybe someone finds something interesting in my mod and it will lead to something better?

Thanks for trying it out.

Thank you BullGod, I actually just played a battle without you mod and now I am back to re download it. I understand you reasoning but i think heavies should at least be able to perform a "light jog" again ,I don't have the balls to jump into modding and I really appreciate you time and effort !

[BullGod]

Thank you BullGod, I actually just played a battle without you mod and now I am back to re download it. I understand you reasoning but i think heavies should at least be able to perform a "light jog" again ,I don't have the balls to jump into modding and I really appreciate you time and effort !

For me this is one way road. I've started reducing movement speed for Empire to about that level and It's hard to accept anything faster now. I almost get heart attack every time I play new, unmodded TW game
If you like, I can probably make a small running speed increase for you, but I think you should try modding yourself. It's really easy with PFM and you can make adjustements to my mod yourself (if you like the basic idea of it) to fine tune everything to your liking. I can post some instructions what to change and how.