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Thread: The myths and reality of Steam generally not refunding games - also belongs to Rome 2

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    alQamar's Avatar Equites Cohortales
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    Default The myths and reality of Steam generally not refunding games - also belongs to Rome 2

    Hello guys,
    I wish you all a happy new year!

    This posting may get a little bit longer, sorry for that, still it could be I am missing some certain situations possible.

    Disclaimer:
    I am not posting this to start a riot towards Steam and CA and trouble them for their game, but to show you that you have powers to enforce your rights you have (hopefully), even Steam will decline you have them in the first step you contact their support, or other users decline you have them likely basically.


    First I would like to explain how this posting is related to Rome 2:

    Not at least Angry Joe mentioned Rome 2 in his 2013 controversial games, we all know about Rome 2 in fact is a controversial game. Since release there have been 9 patches so far, some of them added a lot of quality to the game.
    Even some people may disagree, I personally think it is a lacking game and still is below par when it comes to certain details like system performance, false advertising, still severe bugs though the patching et cetera.

    Saying the game is "unplayable" is clearly a two-bladed sword and definitely not completely right for all users, anyway there are some certain things about this game that could qualify it to be called severe defective and yet no patch seems to be in sight to solve it.

    During the last 3 months I've never seen so many people opening threads or doing postings on different forums (not only TWC), not to forget the Steam community, honestly asking for a refund for this game.
    As you know I am from Germany, and I am quite aware this is a forum is hosted in US so most (Steam) users are liable to US (customer) laws.

    I am not skilled in US law, but there seems to be huge different between those laws in both governmental areas, even more when we talk about german (customer) laws in specific.

    As said, there have been many posts claiming refund for Rome 2

    some examples:http://forums.totalwar.com/showthread.php/116767-Refund (closed)
    http://forums.totalwar.com/showthrea...problems.....? (closed)

    and yet most of them have been answered quickly with "Steam does not refund (broken) games". This reads for me like a general rule.

    This was my common answer towards them:
    Aslong we are speaking about european (EU) citizens you have the right to return the game to your retailer and request a refund if the last 8 patches have not addressed your issues and you cannot solve them with the technical support.
    Generally you have a time of at least 1 year or some countries 2 years to do that. I recommend not to wait longer than 6 months.

    Also Steam is refunding games which are not working as intended and the support actions do not help, if the game is not meeting the advertising etc etc. They may decline that in the first place but at the end they have to act on the same law that is valid for the european customers and are in charge to refund the game.
    Even though some people say Steam will not refund games generally, this is gossip. They do, but they won't make a big thing out of it or try to negate your claims in the first level support. You might need to be persistant and point out your customer laws that are beyond the ToS Steam has. Some of the ToS from Steam are currently questionated at court by a german customer organisation.

    The european sites of amazon for example, will grant a refund without any trouble in a time within 6 weeks after purchase.
    However they are very friendly to customers and a direct call to them helps a lot.


    And yet if you read the Steam ToS they say:


    3. BILLING, PAYMENT AND OTHER SUBSCRIPTIONS
    IF YOU ARE AN EU SUBSCRIBER YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO WITHDRAW FROM A PURCHASE TRANSACTION FOR DIGITAL CONTENT WITHOUT CHARGE AND WITHOUT GIVING ANY REASON UNTIL DELIVERY OF SUCH CONTENT HAS STARTED OR PERFORMANCE OF THE SERVICE HAS COMMENCED. YOU DO NOT HAVE A RIGHT TO WITHDRAW FROM A TRANSACTION OR OBTAIN A REFUND ONCE DELIVERY OF THE CONTENT HAS STARTED OR THE PERFORMANCE OF THE SERVICE HAS COMMENCED, AT WHICH POINT YOUR TRANSACTION IS FINAL. YOU AGREE THAT DELIVERY OF DIGITAL CONTENT, AND THE ASSOCIATED SUBSCRIPTION, AND/OR PERFORMANCE OF THE ASSOCIATED SERVICE, COMMENCES AT THE MOMENT THE DIGITAL CONTENT IS ADDED TO YOUR ACCOUNT OR INVENTORY OR OTHERWISE MADE ACCESSIBLE TO YOU FOR DOWNLOAD OR USE.
    However this section does not exclude them to forget about the "defects liability" that is valid above the ToS of Steam. As Steam being a reseller is clearly liable to this law, at least in EU countries.



    Now to my story:

    From today I would like to give you a practical example, Steam is not refunding hopeless bugged games, is a rumour. The main issue is, whether you are practically able to prove the game is somehow broken (unplayable, has got severe bugs that probably will not be solved or cannot be solved) and whether you are able to claim your customer rights you have (or not have this way in certain countries).
    Just for example SLI support in Rome 2 may be sadly an impossible thing to claim, as they never said it will be supported, so we must be very cautious claiming things being not functional, missing while advertised etc.

    I bought Sacred 2 Gold recently during a discounted sale. I already have this game in my shelf 3 times. One a collectors edition and 2 retail versions - one gold version one retail with addon - there have been reasons unimportant for this thread .

    On 13th May 2012 I asked Steam Support why this game (Sacred 2 Gold) is not available in Steam, but just Sacred 1 Gold. Their answers was: Due to the different publishers they have no permission.

    This year I was really happy to see Sacred 2 being obtainable on Steam and even at a big discount. But as I knew about the instability of this game (retail version) I opened a thread to ask the community, whether this game is now more stable or not. The common idea why this could be possible at all, is that the retail game does have severe problems with its own copyright mechanism. :-^

    read the full story here:
    http://steamcommunity.com/app/225640...9351320265424/

    After my question has been answered I decided to buy this game, perhaps in hope of a salvation this great game will be finally playable and keeping me and my gf busy for a while, as we are both big fans of it.
    So I bought 2 copies on Steam and gifted one to my gf.

    Very soon after the installation we tried the game out playing a coop campaign in our LAN, and guess what happened: The same old issues, even without the copyright mechanism now. This was a pity.
    I browsed several forums and the Steam community to find out this game still seem not to be stable and people keep having the same old issues - I better did that before. There won't be a patch as the dev is bancrupt for long.

    So in a consequence I decided to ask Steam for a refund for both games. Of course it was not an easy run and they declined to do it and forced me to contact the customer support first, which is even legible according the laws.
    However, as expected I did not get an reply from Koch Media UK and took further measures to solve the issue myself. After all nothing helped and so I again contacted Steam on the same ticket, to carry out my refund request as the game is completely unplayable on both computers with same issues, which also many other report to have them too, so this could likely exclude a local problem.

    They declined this request and headed me to their ToS as mentioned before, so I was in charge to give them a lesson about the correlation of laws and the fact Steam ToS are not binding above them.
    Then they answered me they cannot recharge my credit card me but are willing to refund me on my Steam Wallet. Which I accepted to avoid further hassle and discussion.

    So after 6 replies and 2 weeks of time (Xmas between) they accepted to refund me both games as an "exception". However I am used companies do declare this exception even they know they are liable to do it so at least I did not care about that.


    tl:dr
    As you can see I got emails and the whole process worked with their templates, so in this case we should know they have also the technical abilities, not only their liability in EU countries (Germany) to refund defective games, aslong you are able to state them your issues and prove them they will not be solveable by the developer or anyone else responsible for the support of the game.
    This by the way also worked out for the fact of missing advertised translation - greetings to Spain and Italy.


    Here is a prove it happened.











    Likely there might be some discussion about this post and hopefully it will help some TWC members here. Feel free to share it elsewhere but if so please incl. the disclaimer.

    Righ now I am curious who of you was already able to get refunded for a game or even Rome 2?

    "Hope. It is the quintessential human delusion, simultaneously the source of your greatest strength and your greatest weakness." - The Matrix

    It is up on you if you are willing to put a bit of efforts to achieve that and if you are really willing to accept sub par products when there is no hope in sight.
    Clearly it could be CA will solve some of the remaining itching main issues in future, but if not you are now prepared.
    All others that are happy with that state of Rome 2, I wish a happy gaming!


    Last edited by alQamar; January 05, 2014 at 11:41 AM.
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  2. #2
    Fanest's Avatar Centurio
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    Default Re: The myths and reality of Steam generally not refunding games - also belongs to Rome 2

    TLDR all
    how many hours do u have in RTW2 on steam? If u have more than 3 then imo u have no basis to claim it back.
    Last edited by Fanest; January 05, 2014 at 06:19 AM.
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    Default Re: The myths and reality of Steam generally not refunding games - also belongs to Rome 2

    how many hours did you put into the game? the sacred gold thingie?
    Im the Knight in Sour Armor http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...ghtInSourArmor
    but on the same time modder with my first mod for Rome 2!
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    alQamar's Avatar Equites Cohortales
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    Default Re: The myths and reality of Steam generally not refunding games - also belongs to Rome 2

    what a rubbish tldr fanest. *sorry personal comment removed*
    Someone that invested hundreds of hours into the game probably has not enough problems with it or practically does like this meme said, I couldn't find at the moment:

    "He said me in the eye Rome 2 is - still he plays it every night"

    @VarrKhaitain. 4 hours of trying to get it run and testing, but we are talking about a really non running game.

    The amount you played the game does not disqualify you to return it.

    Just for example who should forbid you to play the game with its problems (e.g. performance) while the CA support is asking you to wait for a future patch to solve this problem, and yet at least 2 patches mentioned to fix it, it has not been fixed?
    Last edited by alQamar; January 05, 2014 at 09:55 AM.
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    VarrKhaitan's Avatar Pili Posterior
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    Default Re: The myths and reality of Steam generally not refunding games - also belongs to Rome 2

    Quote Originally Posted by alQamar View Post
    @VarrKhaitain. 4 hours of trying to get it run and testing, but we are talking about a really non running game.

    The amount you played the game does not disqualify you to return it.

    Just for example who should forbid you to play the game with its problems (e.g. performance) while the CA support aksing you to wait for a future patch to solve this problem, and yet at least 2 patches mentioned to fix it, it has not been fixed?
    So basically the amount you played the game does not disqualify you to return it. Strange view.
    it is still a matter of how much time you spent, they would claim that if you serious issue with the game that much, you would not put in more then 2 hours.
    Last edited by VarrKhaitan; January 05, 2014 at 07:03 AM. Reason: fixed it!
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    alQamar's Avatar Equites Cohortales
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    Default Re: The myths and reality of Steam generally not refunding games - also belongs to Rome 2

    Quote Originally Posted by VarrKhaitan View Post
    it is still a matter of how much time you spent, they would claim that if you hated the game that much, you would not put in more then 2 hours.
    Well, wait please, saying a game is subpar or defective is not the same to "hating a game". This thread is clearly not about hating or loving a game but about the possibilities each individual has to get claim his rights. I was just fed up about postings like "Steam does not refund games".

    Yesterday I talked a clan mate that spent 155 hours into the game, and really suprisingly changed his mind about the game rapidly. Not saying he stop to play it. However as I mourned about the game at release he was full of good hope. Now after 3 months he more or less ranted about the games state and problems. So as said the amount of playing time is not a measure of how much you like it or not. Some people still say this game is great and they have no issues. I am glad for them.

    Others see it completely reversed. That's clearly why this game is controversial

    The reason why we talked about the game was Dr.Sanes latest addition on Youtube describing the campaign of Rome 2. And as my friend has far more hours and experience into campaign gaming, this was a reason to ask him what he thinks about Dr. Sanes work and in which part he agrees or not, or if possibly some arguments of Dr. Sane are even (no longer) valid.
    Last edited by alQamar; January 05, 2014 at 07:04 AM.
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    DramaBelli's Avatar Pili
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    Default Re: The myths and reality of Steam generally not refunding games - also belongs to Rome 2

    Yep, interesting post my friend, and also interesting question about the hours played. In Rome 2 I get 450 hours and I never finished a ampaign due to patch releases and frustration. Most of time was spent to capture promos and to test mods.
    Who cares? this is not worthly and in a reasonable way. I collected 350 hours os this is the proof, this is the concrete clue.

    Rome at last is running on my rig, the fact this is a silly AI bugged game does not care.

    Days ago I was surprised by a statement made by a friend of mine not involved with Rome: "Opnion about AI in a game depends from personal view of a single player". Of course I explained him this is not a question of literature and interpretations but a concrete result of tests but the main clue is that this game is working, loading and despite of still (in a big part) broken sieges "playable".

    At present time the biggest part of the Rome II affair is related (for many of us) to an "ethical" question


    However as I mourned about the game at release he was full of good hope. Now after 3 months he more or less ranted about the games state and problems.
    Are you talking about me?

    no of course, but I guess this is the core of the Rome II affair for many of us.

    We never thought seriously to give it back (accepting the consequences). We believed in an ethical path.
    Last edited by DramaBelli; January 05, 2014 at 08:41 AM.
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    Default Re: The myths and reality of Steam generally not refunding games - also belongs to Rome 2

    Quote Originally Posted by DramaBelli View Post
    Are you talking about me?
    No I wasn't
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    Default Re: The myths and reality of Steam generally not refunding games - also belongs to Rome 2

    Interesting article about this topic.


    Steam’s refund policy is restrictive, incoherent and in urgent need of change


    http://www.incgamers.com/2013/12/ste...nt-need-change
    Total War: Rome II, X Rebirth and Aliens: Colonial Marines are just three examples of games released this year which did not functioned as advertised. They all “worked” in the sense that they booted up, but the reality of their launch did not match the pre-release marketing hype. But if you’d fired any of the games up for even five minutes on launch day to discover, yep, they’re a bit crap, you’d have voided your right to request a refund under Steam’s crazy policy terms.
    Except, the weird part is people sometimes do get refunds on Steam in these and similar circumstances. It’s just that nobody knows precisely how to do it. There are no definitive guidelines and no objective methods, just guesswork and hearsay. Steam’s customer support staff seem to handle things on a case by case basis, where in some (rare and mysterious) cases the official refund policy can be over-ruled.
    Google about X Rebirth refunds: http://steamcommunity.com/app/2870/d...11852425934472

    If you like it share it and write down your thought on the social networks / reddit etc.
    Last edited by alQamar; January 18, 2014 at 04:47 AM.
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    RedFox's Avatar When it's done.™
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    Default Re: The myths and reality of Steam generally not refunding games - also belongs to Rome 2

    Quote Originally Posted by alQamar View Post

    Righ now I am curious who of you was already able to get refunded for a game or even Rome 2?

    R2TW. First time I pre-ordered a game - got burned hard. I ordered a retail copy from the official TotalWar site and giddily awaited for release. When I started seeing flak around the forums and some really disappointing reviews, alarm bells obviously went off - this did not look good at all.

    For some reason the retailer failed to provide me with an actual key and the support lines for R2TW seemed to be full of angry customers, so the queue was usually 2 days just to get a dismissive reply.

    So I was able to file a dispute through Paypal for undelivered goods. Since the retailer failed to respond to Paypal, I got a complete refund to my credit card. I still believe they just decided to ignore any complaints, hoping people would give up (their money) and get away with it.

    I would just recommend people to not fall for pre-orders, wait for honest reviews and even then pay through Paypal, not directly from your credit card.

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    Default Re: The myths and reality of Steam generally not refunding games - also belongs to Rome 2

    X Rebirth was at least for the first couple of weeks somewhat inconsistent. Some people got their refunds (several having already had the 'one time refund') while others did not stating various reasons, in particular time spent playing. After a while those that got refused found out that they had all had the same handler. Basically nobody who had had him handle their requests ever got a refund. It was quite enlightening, as it seems there are no firm rules and there are in fact no higher-up escalation in the matter; it is all handled by the one person that receives your request.

    So when requesting refunds, you have to be a bit lucky as well. If you get the guy from X Rebirth, forget about it.
    Stupidity is the natural state of human beings; brilliance is when we fail at stupidity.

    Speaking of which...

    I am ever more reminded of this guy when browsing certain threads.

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    krisslanza's Avatar Content Staff
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    Default Re: The myths and reality of Steam generally not refunding games - also belongs to Rome 2

    I don't get why people expect a refund on a game that didn't "meet my expectations". Getting a refund on a game that flat out doesn't work, is fault in some way, is one thing. But just wanting a refund because it wasn't as great as you expected? Though I do seem to be in the TWC minority that didn't expect Rome 2 to be the greatest thing since sliced bread (because that's just setting yourself up for disaster.), so I guess that was a good move on my part. Helps me actually enjoy the game.

    I don't see why people expect Steam to do that anyway. I know I can't return PC games for a refund at GameStop, because there's nothing to stop a PC gamer from buying a PC game, installing it, getting a noCD crack, then going back to the store and saying "Yeah, I don't like it. Refund please.", then just playing the game anyway...

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    Aquilifer
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    Default Re: The myths and reality of Steam generally not refunding games - also belongs to Rome 2

    Quote Originally Posted by krisslanza View Post
    I don't get why people expect a refund on a game that didn't "meet my expectations". Getting a refund on a game that flat out doesn't work, is fault in some way, is one thing. But just wanting a refund because it wasn't as great as you expected? Though I do seem to be in the TWC minority that didn't expect Rome 2 to be the greatest thing since sliced bread (because that's just setting yourself up for disaster.), so I guess that was a good move on my part. Helps me actually enjoy the game.

    I don't see why people expect Steam to do that anyway. I know I can't return PC games for a refund at GameStop, because there's nothing to stop a PC gamer from buying a PC game, installing it, getting a noCD crack, then going back to the store and saying "Yeah, I don't like it. Refund please.", then just playing the game anyway...
    I'm of the same notion here. Controversial doesn't mean broken. Clearly the game isn't broken, since myself, and apparently between 12,000 to 25,000 people according to the Steam charts have been enjoying it on a pretty regular basis since it's release. Saying it's subpar is subjective, since it's your definition of adequacy, not an actual benchmark. Sure that's not saying you hate it, but it's still a personal opinion.

    It seems like your trying to blur the lines of 'it doesn't measure up to my standards' and 'it's defective.' It definitely had bugs, I didn't experience most of them and from what I understand most of them have been worked out, so you're defective argument loses credibility every patch. You can't argue you want to return a defective product because it's defective, after they've already fixed all the defects. I honestly had more bug problems with Shogun 2 near release than I did with Rome II, people are just kicking up dirt because it's not the best game ever like they were quite nearly advertising.

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    Default Re: The myths and reality of Steam generally not refunding games - also belongs to Rome 2

    Quote Originally Posted by RedFox View Post
    R2TW. First time I pre-ordered a game - got burned hard. I ordered a retail copy from the official TotalWar site and giddily awaited for release. When I started seeing flak around the forums and some really disappointing reviews, alarm bells obviously went off - this did not look good at all.

    For some reason the retailer failed to provide me with an actual key and the support lines for R2TW seemed to be full of angry customers, so the queue was usually 2 days just to get a dismissive reply.

    So I was able to file a dispute through Paypal for undelivered goods. Since the retailer failed to respond to Paypal, I got a complete refund to my credit card. I still believe they just decided to ignore any complaints, hoping people would give up (their money) and get away with it.

    I would just recommend people to not fall for pre-orders, wait for honest reviews and even then pay through Paypal, not directly from your credit card.

    Given the fact that it’s on STEAM to begin with it doesn’t take a lot of effort to simply just “wait” a month or two until the game is 50-75% off in those flash sales, especially when we’re near a holiday.
    Then again you can say that with ANY product these days. Don’t buy a Blu-Ray movie the day it comes out, wait a month or so and instead of paying $30 you’ll be paying $9.00.

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    Tyso3's Avatar Aquilifer
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    Default Re: The myths and reality of Steam generally not refunding games - also belongs to Rome 2

    For me, getting Rome 2 is like your grandmas knitted sweater you get when your 5 years old.


    It Looks stupid, itches like hell, its the wrong size, wrong shape and you really wish it was more like your old sweater.

    But at the end of the day, its yours now, you cant sell it, youll just have to wear it.

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    Ataegina's Avatar Nature's Ninja
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    Default Re: The myths and reality of Steam generally not refunding games - also belongs to Rome 2

    refunds are only if the game doesn't work right after you buy it and keeps doing it, now play the game for hours and claim refund because of bugs......... seriously? thats more a shameless scam scheme to play games for free because you play and than you get your money back!
    Common sense removed due being Disruptive.

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    chris10's Avatar Sagittarius
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    Default Re: The myths and reality of Steam generally not refunding games - also belongs to Rome 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Ataegina View Post
    r...now play the game for hours and claim refund because of bugs......... seriously? thats more a shameless scam scheme to play games for free because you play and than you get your money back!
    Playing a game for 2 to 3 hours and deinstall due to serious bugs and glitches is perfectly within everybodys customers rights...trying a product is part of the process of adquiring it and if it doesnt work properly due to serious bugs, glitches or crashes or doesnt bring and deliver the features advertised a person is perfectly entitled to dissolve the contract no matter what publishers or retailers wanna make people believe.

    The full version of a game con not be tested before installing it hence the legal concept of "hidden deficiencies" clearly applys.

    Its really beyond me how people can be so dulled to suggest otherwise...

    People who wanna play for free just download the crap and done...gimme a break...you repeat the same nonsense KrissLanza said above and the answer to you is just the same...often games are up for download on their release day...only patches could take a couple of more days after their release...
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...1#post13571599
    Last edited by chris10; January 19, 2014 at 09:44 AM.

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    alQamar's Avatar Equites Cohortales
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    Default Re: The myths and reality of Steam generally not refunding games - also belongs to Rome 2

    Quote Originally Posted by RedFox View Post
    R2TW. First time I pre-ordered a game - got burned hard. I ordered a retail copy from the official TotalWar site and giddily awaited for release. When I started seeing flak around the forums and some really disappointing reviews, alarm bells obviously went off - this did not look good at all.

    For some reason the retailer failed to provide me with an actual key and the support lines for R2TW seemed to be full of angry customers, so the queue was usually 2 days just to get a dismissive reply.

    So I was able to file a dispute through Paypal for undelivered goods. Since the retailer failed to respond to Paypal, I got a complete refund to my credit card. I still believe they just decided to ignore any complaints, hoping people would give up (their money) and get away with it.

    I would just recommend people to not fall for pre-orders, wait for honest reviews and even then pay through Paypal, not directly from your credit card.
    Thanks for giving an unorthodox example. But at least we have one, seriously not the way it should have went.
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    Default Re: The myths and reality of Steam generally not refunding games - also belongs to Rome 2

    Quote Originally Posted by krisslanza View Post
    I don't get why people expect a refund on a game that didn't "meet my expectations". Getting a refund on a game that flat out doesn't work, is fault in some way, is one thing. But just wanting a refund because it wasn't as great as you expected? Though I do seem to be in the TWC minority that didn't expect Rome 2 to be the greatest thing since sliced bread (because that's just setting yourself up for disaster.), so I guess that was a good move on my part. Helps me actually enjoy the game.

    I don't see why people expect Steam to do that anyway. I know I can't return PC games for a refund at GameStop, because there's nothing to stop a PC gamer from buying a PC game, installing it, getting a noCD crack, then going back to the store and saying "Yeah, I don't like it. Refund please.", then just playing the game anyway...
    This thread is not about unmet expectations but about flawed, buggy games. In particular also about Rome 2, it is also about false advertising.
    Yep I know your quote "There was nothing wrong with the advertising"
    The game still don't work out for some. It does for some other. Some can live with, some cannot.

    This thread is about making the community aware about their legally options.
    It is not about to misuse their rights as you stated it in the second part of your statement. Seriously I would not return a broken game to play a copy with an illegal crack later. Also the frequent patches would likely prevent I am doing so.

    I don't get why people expect a refund on a game
    BECAUSE WE CAN!
    Last edited by alQamar; January 19, 2014 at 03:18 PM.
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  20. #20
    Aquilifer
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    Default Re: The myths and reality of Steam generally not refunding games - also belongs to Rome 2

    Quote Originally Posted by alQamar View Post
    . Some can live with, some cannot.
    See. This is where I have issue with your debate. There are literally thousands of people that play the game every day with no problem. This isn't an issue of hardware. This is like I said in my previous post, you seem to be trying to blur the lines between an actually defective product, and a product that doesn't meet your personal standards. That's not how it works. I don't get a refund from a movie when I think the plot is complete crap and the CGI is pretty shoddy because the trailers made it look awesome. You're trying to say that because some people deem it unacceptable, it's able to be returned, even though there are many who find it to be an apt product. It's not like a sweater you can return to the store, they wash it and put it back on the shelf, it's an intellectual/artistic product, you've already had the experience, it's done. No trade backs fellas.

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