The So called "Controversies " in video games .

[Gaidin]

It does.

I love how you make no point. That's more controversial than his point.

[Cold_Mac]

I love how you make no point. That's more controversial than his point.

I love how you ignore the whole discussion for the sake of a little provocation and no input.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The Swastika as a symbol is forbidden in Germany, by law & constitution, unless you have educational or informative content. Games clearly don't hence the legal restrictions.

It seems Wolfenstein has torture chambers and deals very directly with institutionalised genocide - that's why the USK is so ridiculously appeasing. Other games have no quarrels with calling Nazi's Nazis or calling Himmler or Hitler by their name.

I'm not entirely sure if those Ausschwitz & Mengele-influenced parts are entirely necessary...

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Symbols? Not that easy. Law is in place since 1947 and is a general statement; you'd have to abolish that law, which would be difficult and I'd say you are more likely to get marijuana legalized. Furthermore, you'd have to specify cases for exemption and inclusion - a nightmare full of procedural traps. If you don't than there could be a cumulative effect on the society, rather dubious partys and a lot of other, unwanted influence.

All the trouble and controversy for the sake of a symbol that stands for nothing but unparalleled terror and contributes nothing to the gameplay nor story? It may be just myself but I have a weird fear of knobheads running around in kindergardens, wearing SS/Wehrmacht-uniforms and gifting Hakenkreuz-sticker.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

It's a hyperhyperhypersensitive topic. There was one developer that had to order all their copies back and destroy them just because of one missed swastika. The consequence of the general ruling of § 86a would make it a criminal act to not order them back (!)

I think the game touches upon topics that other games do not even get close. Not necessarily in a bad way, some of it is good and well-toned but swastikas in a Nazi-themed game will have the obvious associations when linked with characters like General Totenkopf (~infamous SS-Totenkopf Division) or Frau Engel and the hinted euthanasia ingame or the described torture-Auschwitz/Mengele link. That thematic is definitly dark-grey in my opinion.

I'm just no fan of repeats if you could just read the posts in the thread.

[Gaidin]

Your conversation sucks given how many games I played for educational purposes in elementary school and makes how argument besides 'what is, is'. Imagine if a history class decided to make use of the medium. Germany would look like an idiot. Try again.

[Cold_Mac]

Your conversation sucks given how many games I played for educational purposes in elementary school and makes how argument besides 'what is, is'. Imagine if a history class decided to make use of the medium. Germany would look like an idiot. Try again.

Are you able to restrict yourself from insulting others?

Besides, there is no point in arguing about educational value when the game in question is Wolfenstein.

[Gaidin]

Are you able to restrict yourself from insulting others?

I'm pretty sure I'm allowed to say general statements about germany's law given that's what every statement you said was about. Germany's law sucks. Your conversation was about Germany's law. Your conversation sucks. All because a history class can make use of the computer gaming medium and have legitimate medium to use the nazi symbols and trash your entire statement about games having no legal educational use.

Here's your quote(emphasis added):

The Swastika as a symbol is forbidden in Germany, by law & constitution, unless you have educational or informative content. Games clearly don't hence the legal restrictions.

It seems Wolfenstein has torture chambers and deals very directly with institutionalised genocide - that's why the USK is so ridiculously appeasing. Other games have no quarrels with calling Nazi's Nazis or calling Himmler or Hitler by their name.

I'm not entirely sure if those Ausschwitz & Mengele-influenced parts are entirely necessary...

They may not use Wolfenstein but hell if they can't use games.

A->B is the general logic at work here.

Go run to the mods if you disagree, as we're arguing about a controversy, not a single damn game.

[Cold_Mac]

I'm pretty sure I'm allowed to say general statements about germany's law given that's what every statement you said was about. Germany's law sucks. Your conversation was about Germany's law. Your conversation sucks. All because a history class can make use of the computer gaming medium and have legitimate medium to use the nazi symbols and trash your entire statement about games having no legal educational use.

Your point is your [shallow] opinion about Germany's law. My point are the circumstances preventing a change to the law.

You are getting confronted with the Hakenkreuz in movies & documentations every second, why is that small crux such a more important issue than, lets say, Steam quality control?

A history class' project is the way to circumvent/enforce change to §86a? That's your solution? The best imaginable result you'd get w- companies would be able to field their games to the courtyard for judgement. More costs, unsecure results and basically no influence on the game quality.

Here's your quote(emphasis added):

They may not use Wolfenstein but hell if they can't use games.

Primary purpose is commerce. You'd be lucky to get more than 20% of Nazi-games that even feature historic figures. No basis for a constitutional amendment.

A->B is the general logic at work here.

Pretty sure it's B+<C

Go run to the mods if you disagree.

Yeah. Lets start a internet -fight. First of its kind. Worth it...you were posting like a immature CoD player on the basis of a longer conversation. I had fun.

[Gaidin]

Pretty sure it's B+<C

Let's run through this. My quote:

Germany's law sucks. Your conversation was about Germany's law. Your conversation sucks.

A: Germany's law
B: Your conversation.

If I say Germany's law sucks. I'm saying your conversation sucks. Thus, A -> B

And if you really think I'm breaking the rules you're perfectly allowed. I think I'm saying something about Germany's law. You. You've been spending five damn posts saying everything about Germany's law. Because you don't think gaming can possibly be a legitimate educational medium, and thus can't get a dispensation for that law, even though I spent plenty of time being educated through them. Go figure.

Primary purpose is commerce.

So frakking what? Final product gets sold to the educational department so it can get used by the teachers. The damn programmers that made the educational game have to make a living as well genius! How the hell do you think this system works?

[Cold_Mac]

This argument is entirely redundant.

I didn't care for your childish immaturity or your convictions about what is right/wrong. 5 posts because you keep hammering in points that are extraneous.

There is no way gaming products can, as a whole, be sold and promoted as educational and informational foremost. Thus the minimal chance to slip under the current ruling. Games are not considered on the same level as movies in terms of violence, they've got a way to go before they can spray Hakenkreuze all over the walls.
There is no way an online mockrage about a symbol, loaded a heckload of explosives, will overturn a general, constitutional law. The otherwise peaceful/religious context is immaterial when Auschwitz is going to be thrown at you.

Consequently, you've got a lot of mockrage to spout over a matter that doesn't affect you in any way, shape or form.

Get a perspective. Lets kiss and wave goodbye.

[Inhuman One]

Very few videogames are used in education, the few that are tend to be the ones made specifically for that. And its in no way required to teach history. There's teachers, the internet and many sources to get information about history for students. Besides, some imagery being censored is no big deal for a history lesson. For a videogame you want immersion, for history in this particular case it would be about not repeating the mistakes an older german generation has made.

Why get so worked up about it anyways when you are no german and it does not affect you in any way? It's no great injustice done to anyone, no one is getting hurt.

[Gaidin]

Very few videogames are used in education, the few that are tend to be the ones made specifically for that. And its in no way required to teach history.

And neither are they required for any other course they've been used for, and yet they've still been used for them. What's your point here?

There's teachers, the internet and many sources to get information about history for students. Besides, some imagery being censored is no big deal for a history lesson.

That sort of destroys the history lesson.

For a videogame you want immersion, for history in this particular case it would be about not repeating the mistakes an older german generation has made.

An educational game isn't about immersion in the sense this forum thinks about immersion. That's your first mistake. It's about the lesson, not about sucking the gamer in.

Why get so worked up about it anyways when you are no german and it does not affect you in any way? It's no great injustice done to anyone, no one is getting hurt.

Why not? It's a damn debate. I get into the discussion when and where I choose and to hell with what you think about that. Now see he wants to just swing Germany's law around like a baseball bat and break windows making him pretty uninteresting, downright boring, and culturally afraid. Now it explains well enough why games can't use such symbols and videos can, sure. But then I wonder, why can't games when there are plenty of examples of educational games and I wonder if the right teacher wants to use the right type of game. You want to actually debate or you want to take up a baseball bat and break windows as well?

[Thanatos]

Very few videogames are used in education, the few that are tend to be the ones made specifically for that. And its in no way required to teach history. There's teachers, the internet and many sources to get information about history for students. Besides, some imagery being censored is no big deal for a history lesson. For a videogame you want immersion, for history in this particular case it would be about not repeating the mistakes an older german generation has made.

Why get so worked up about it anyways when you are no german and it does not affect you in any way? It's no great injustice done to anyone, no one is getting hurt.

Because it doesn't do anything. One could analogize it to Voldemort from the Harry Potter series. Everyone goes around saying "He Who Must Not Be Named," but everyone knows that it's Voldemort. Nobody's stupid.

Same thing with here. You know that they're trying to reference Nazi Germany. The presenter (in this case, a video game) knows it's trying to reference Nazi Germany. Everyone else knows it's trying to reference Nazi Germany.

Just say/use it already... unless using a particular symbol somehow magically makes everyone start goose-stepping in unison and all that is available on the daily lunch menu is spatzle and bratwurst.

[Cold_Mac]

Because it doesn't do anything. One could analogize it to Voldemort from the Harry Potter series. Everyone goes around saying "He Who Must Not Be Named," but everyone knows that it's Voldemort. Nobody's stupid.

That Harry Potter-reference would go well in court.

Same thing with here. You know that they're trying to reference Nazi Germany. The presenter (in this case, a video game) knows it's trying to reference Nazi Germany. Everyone else knows it's trying to reference Nazi Germany.

Just say/use it already... unless using a particular symbol somehow magically makes everyone start goose-stepping in unison and all that is available on the daily lunch menu is spatzle and bratwurst.

I'm pretty sure Germans are aware that Nazi German symbols and their use within debatable subject matter aren't up for debate.

It seems non-Germans don't see the issues with the ban on Nazi-symbols or aren't aware of the political implications. There is a long campaign to ban the only right-wing party (NPD) by law. If the Hakenkreuz is allowed, we'd likely see those muppets hand out Hakenkreuz-sticker at kindergardens. Brave new world eh?

You're getting swamped by the Hakenkreuz in every documentary and book on the matter. I don't want to see it anywhere. Not the Hakenkreuz, not the Totenkopf-SS, not Auschwitz, not Bergen-Belsen. Contributes nothing to the game whatsoever and is unlikely to have a positive effect. If there would be an urgend need on Nazi-propaganda, I'd read my grandfathers books.

It's about influence limitations & protection. Not about calling a squid a squid.

[Mayer]

I'm pretty sure Germans are aware that Nazi German symbols and their use within debatable subject matter aren't up for debate.

I'm fairly surprised that a libertarian is so fond of state-censorship

If the Hakenkreuz is allowed, we'd likely see those muppets hand out Hakenkreuz-sticker at kindergardens. Brave new world eh?

Where is the context to the implication of swastikas in videogames?
Kindergardens will not suddenly allow some weirdos to make trouble with the children, how did you get the idea?
There is no surveillance on kids, so you can not prevent them from occasionaly making nazi symbols or other obscene stuff unless you don't teach pupils about Nationalsocialism in the first place, although they may still make swastikas without knowing the political system of Nazi-Germany. Also you would have to persecute Buddhism for its use of swastikas..

You're getting swamped by the Hakenkreuz in every documentary and book on the matter. I don't want to see it anywhere. Not the Hakenkreuz, not the Totenkopf-SS, not Auschwitz, not Bergen-Belsen. Contributes nothing to the game whatsoever and is unlikely to have a positive effect. If there would be an urgend need on Nazi-propaganda, I'd read my grandfathers books.

It's about influence limitations & protection. Not about calling a squid a squid.

What's with the focus on NS symbolism? Prohibition of all symbols related to regimes which commited genocide would be far more coherent.
Let's ban hammer and sickle, star, cross, crescent, the french tricolore, the dollar, Belgium's crown insignia and the flag of Ruanda too.
We could replace the US flag with the Coca-Cola label and Uncle Sam with Santa Claus, or take McDonalds and father Comstock, it really doesn't matter because people will know the reference

What still is the strangest thing to me is that if a game like manhunt had minor nudity like showing a woman topless somewhere not even in a sexual context, it would be a big drama about that and not so much about the violence anymore.

That's also weird. I don't know how any sane person could judge nudity and sex as being worse than violence, influence of religion or ashamed of sex?

[Cold_Mac]

I'm fairly surprised that a *libertarian is so fond of state-censorship

*which is something different depending the country you are in. I'm definitly no FDP/CDU voter.

Where is the context to the implication of swastikas in videogames?

It's a Hakenkreuz. With the aforementioned grey-areas.

Kindergardens will not suddenly allow some weirdos to make trouble with the children, how did you get the idea?

Because Kindergardens are already targeted by those scumbags. Never a bit of election-propaganda to see, unless around Kindergardens. Could name at least 18 examples in three different federal states.

There is no surveillance on kids, so you can not prevent them from occasionaly making nazi symbols or other obscene stuff unless you don't teach pupils about Nationalsocialism in the first place, although they may still make swastikas without knowing the political system of Nazi-Germany.

There is - it's called parenting.

Also you would have to persecute Buddhism for its use of swastikas..

No. There are also no Buddhism-centred games with Nazi-features.

The contextual problems of the Hakenkreuz make any non-german meaning immaterial.

What's with the focus on NS symbolism? Prohibition of all symbols related to regimes which commited genocide would be far more coherent.

How simplified are your arguments? The crimes of Nazi-Germany are, of course, of special importance for present-day German law.

I don't get your following sweepstake; Do you want to start a crusade on how the institutionalised Nazi crimes relate to other, debatable, crimes on the topic of a german Hakenkreuz-ban for videogames...? There is a political mudpit for that crap.

Let's ban hammer and sickle, star, cross, crescent, the french tricolore, the dollar, Belgium's crown insignia and the flag of Ruanda too.
We could replace the US flag with the Coca-Cola label and Uncle Sam with Santa Claus, or take McDonalds and father Comstock, it really doesn't matter because people will know the reference

You've just compared Auschwitz with Coca-Cola.

That's also weird. I don't know how any sane person could judge nudity and sex as being worse than violence, influence of religion or ashamed of sex?

It's called opinion. They differ. Especially across cultures & continents.

Violence & sexual exposure are treated very differently in the EU & US.

[The Despondent Mind]

Let's ban hammer and sickle, star, cross, crescent, the french tricolore, the dollar, Belgium's crown insignia and the flag of Ruanda too.
We could replace the US flag with the Coca-Cola label and Uncle Sam with Santa Claus, or take McDonalds and father Comstock, it really doesn't matter because people will know the reference

this.

You've just compared Auschwitz with Coca-Cola.

I honestly can't grasp why is it such problem to put really nazis, they are simply villains like any other and you shoot them.
Even if you play as a nazi it still shouldn't be a problem, we're supposed to live in a free society, who doesn't like it shouldn't play it, that simple. I would rather ban nazi gatherings, web sites, any kind of formal social contact or union between them.

[Mayer]

*which is something different depending the country you are in.

So, being a practicing Nazi in the USA is perfectly fine but having a evil swastika in germany is a mortal sin because is of country difference

No. There are also no Buddhism-centred games with Nazi-features.

How about Pokémon?


or this RPG called Manji: PSY Yūki

The crimes of Nazi-Germany are, of course, of special importance for present-day German law.

How so? These happend like 70 years ago and it's not today's generation fault, i wouldn't even say it's the fault of most of the old generation. Also it's ridiculous to only concentrate on bad sides of our history (while ignoring the wrong deeds of others at the same time), no other country in the world does that.

I don't get your following sweepstake; Do you want to start a crusade on how the institutionalised Nazi crimes relate to other, debatable, crimes on the topic of a german Hakenkreuz-ban for videogames...? There is a political mudpit for that crap.

And i don't get how you relate a swastika in a videogame to Nazi-indoctrination in Kindergardens

You've just compared Auschwitz with Coca-Cola.

unlike Hitler the cokes are still alive and kicking with their murderous, environmental destructive, exploitive dictatorship
//killercoke.org

It's called opinion. They differ. Especially across cultures & continents.

and between persons like you and me, is that an argument?

[Symphony]

Very few videogames are used in education, the few that are tend to be the ones made specifically for that. And its in no way required to teach history. There's teachers, the internet and many sources to get information about history for students.

For what it's worth, at least in the United States, "gameification" is all the rage in educational circles, from elementary schools all the way up through private corporate training programs. Textbook publishers, never a bunch to miss a shot at increased profits, are teaming up with software developers to get "educational" games (of varying degrees of real educational value) into all these school districts that have purchased in-classroom laptops or tablets for their students. If it's a new and trendy concept (it is), and textbook publishers have sales people in the districts selling the hell out of 'em (they are), and especially if it's effective (so far, initial studies of results seem to indicate that it is), video games in the classroom will become more and more common.

Whether it's "required" to teach history or not is irrelevant, and a bit of a straw man; technically, no single item or medium is "required" to teach any subject, up to and including an instructor, if you really want to get pedantic.

Educational quality control will not be very tight, either....for decades now, moving curriculum to electronic media has been the holy grail of American school districts; making something electronic has become an accomplishment in and of itself, even if actual educational quality suffers. School districts LOVE showing off how modern and high-tech their classrooms are, with the rallying cry that they're enhancing future life skills, and governments at all levels love throwing funding at them to make it happen....they act (and have for a long time now) like even the simple act of getting a student to sit down at a computer, or hit the Internet (for whatever reason) is an educational experience in and of itself. I can't tell you the number of times I've argued with a school official, over the course of my kids' school careers, about how forcing kids to look up sources online often results in inferior sourcing and inferior learning; often times, especially in history classes, the sources in my own private library are superior to what they stumble into during a Google search. The response is always "we think it's better that they know how to do it online", and my kids have been downgraded for using a paper source.

Wolfenstein is a poor example, of course....at least today, not even the most liberal school district on the planet is going to look at a commercial action/shooter for educational content. But over time, given the factors involved, it's entirely reasonable to expect that the lines between true educational video game content and purely entertainment media will become very, very blurry.

[Cold_Mac]

So, being a practicing Nazi in the USA is perfectly fine but having a evil swastika in germany is a mortal sin because is of country difference

Yes, it is. Definitly mortal. You'll get the death penalty for that in Germany.

It's prohibited by law that has its reasons. Your point is caller?

How about Pokémon? or this RPG called Manji: PSY Yūki

Kudos to you for searching them out. Still, Pokemon are hardly Buddhism-centred games...

How so? These happend like 70 years ago and it's not today's generation fault, i wouldn't even say it's the fault of most of the old generation.

Because it is the foundation constitution of our modern state that ought to protect itself from the ever-lasting influences of Hitler.

Of course not. They were all innocent. My grandfather had a 14-year holiday in Ishewsk, as a 14-year old. Before that they were all just having a april's fool in Germany when he saw the pig-transporter full of deceasing human corpses.

Not their fault

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Also it's ridiculous to only concentrate on bad sides of our history (while ignoring the wrong deeds of others at the same time), no other country in the world does that.

It's not "a bad side of history." It's a fairly recent event, historically, that had two generations' upbringing of militarism, imperialism and finally state-institutionalised propaganda promoting their ideals of hatred & supremacy culiminate in the worst crimes that civilised mankind has ever committed. Evidently planned mass-murder, pogroms and genocide since 1935. Just read a bit. Reichskristallnacht.


Aye and you try to relativize that with Coca-Cola.

And i don't get how you relate a swastika in a videogame to Nazi-indoctrination in Kindergardens

Because it is a general law for the 29th time. You don't get Swastikas in games unless you radically change it. I don't want it changed. You get swamped with Hakenkreuz in every book & documentation.

Kindergardens & schools are targeted by them. Already. Why give opportunities to influence our weakest by their religion of hatred for just a minor symbol in a friggin video game?

unlike Hitler the cokes are still alive and kicking with their murderous, environmental destructive, exploitive dictatorship
//killercoke.org

Okay, I get it. You are trolling.

and between persons like you and me, is that an argument?

You asked the question how a sane person could judge the matter differently. I gave you a possible reason.

[Inhuman One]

Just let it go already, stop beating the dead nazi horse.

[Cold_Mac]

Yeah, that would be sensible.

I just can't take it that people actually feel compulsed to argue that §86a should be abolished for the sake of a friggin pixel graphic.