Historical research

[uanime5]

This thread is for information about Korea, China, Japan, and the Imjin war.

The following information will be the most useful:

• Soldiers used by Korea, China, Mongols, and Jurchen (including what weapons and armour they used).
• Ships used by Korea and China.
• How Korea, China, Mongols, and Jurchen soldiers were trained.
• Agents used by Korea, China, Mongols, and Jurchen (make sure to explain if they were similar to the Japanese metsuke, ninja, geisha, or monk).
• Major battles during the Imjin war.
• Generals and admirals that fought during the Imjin war.

Some posts about Korean generals from another thread.

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...1#post13329516
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...1#post13330050

[Sigmar Heldenhamer]

military uniforms from Joseon period of korea , its a little before imjin war but should still be relevant

[Sigmar Heldenhamer]

i also believe korea was heavily invluenced by china during the Goryeo period by Yuan china or china in general

[CoconutFred]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damo_(Korea)

Damo (literally "Tea Lady") are female servants commonly used as police to investigate crimes instigated by women where it would be suspicious or embarrassing for males to ask questions. These agents could be used as either female metsuke or geisha, or even like ROTS shirabyoshi.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gisaeng

Gisaeng (also spelled Kisaeng) are female entertainers or prostitutes - just like Geishas. Gisaeng of Jinju region are especially skilled at the sword dance (make kisaeng from this province especially good at assassination?). They are recruited from Gyobang buildings (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyobang).

[uanime5]

Information about Korean topknots.


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Sangtu (상투): This was the ordinary hairstyle for the men of the Joseon Dynasty, especially among the noblemen and the scholars. The hair was tied into a topknot and a headband, manggeon, was used to hold the hair in place. (Manggeon was also used to hold the headgears in place). The topknot was a sign of manhood for the men since they would start to wear their hair into a topknot when they got married, as they used to marry at a young age.


Minsangtu (민상투): It’s the topknot for the lower class men and its difference compared to sangtu was the absence of manggeon.

http://thetalkingcupboard.wordpress....and-headgears/

Information about Korean clothing:
http://thetalkingcupboard.wordpress....ed-by-kdramas/

[mons]

This is a Joseon marksman (appeared later on in the Imjin War)

[RollingWave]

There was essentially only 4 major field conflict in the war. 3 in the first and 1 in the second. The rest were either siege or naval.

1. 4/28 1592 : Battle of Chungju: A couple weeks after the Japanese landed, the Koreans mustered their reserve forces and met the first division of the invasion lead by Konishi Yukinaga in Chungju. The results was a disastrous Korean defeat despite having considerably larger numbers. A combination of general lack of suitable equipment to fight the Japanese and pretty poor tactical choices, many more reserve were still on their way to Seoul before this battle, but afterward most of them dispersed.

Essentially, the Korean general had a rather large contingent of light and heavy cavalry at his disposal, his plan was to line them up the nearby plains that the main japanese host must go through. and hope that the terrain gives him the edge. the problem was that the edge became pointless as they lost the initiative, the Japanese sneak up on them to attack both the cavalry army and the nearby Castle, a chaotic charge by the Koreans did some damage, but was not nearly enough to win the battle. virtually all usable forces within Korea was lost in this battle.

2.Battle of Imjin River : 5/18 1592 as the Korean court fled north, they had one last army they could use, which is the army that defend their northern border from Jurchen raiders, traditionally their best warriors, they attempted to attack the Japanese forces shortly after they crossed the river (which traditionally separates north and south Korea )

The army was not in a great situation to fight, as they had just marched down from the border in haste after the disaster at Chungju . But knowing the importance of the river and also that there's a much larger army behind the current one, they decided that they can not wait and must go for the initiative.

Unfortunately the Japanese general also knew this, and baited them into charging into a trap, although the powerful charge did rout parts of the Japanese army and did significant damage, again the discipline and experience of the Japanese forces came through and the last regular army of Korea was destroyed.

3. Battle of Byeokjegwan 1/27 1593 , The full Ming dynasty expedition army entered Korean on the new year, and shortly after scored an impressive victory by taking PyongYang from a full army in a single day. shortly after they also recovered Kaisong, Korea's 3rd largest city.

Having recovered 2 of the 3 major cities in only 2 weeks after entering Korea, the Ming army was (over)confident that the end of war is near, and charged strait ahead toward Seoul. Partially misled by faulty local intelligence that the Japanese were also about to abandon the city (they had abandoned Kaisong without much of a fight.)

Unfortunately the truth was that the Japanese forces were actually contracting towards Seoul, and had a much larger concentration of troops in the area than the Ming forces, the commander , eager to end the war quickly, charged ahead of the main army with a few thousand of this most elite cavalry . only to meet Japanese patrols . They initially defeated the small patrol with ease, but soon they realize that there's an overwhelming number of reinforcement, and by the time they realize they were mostly trapped, and had to fought their way out of the large Japanese army.

Although they did manage the fight out of the situation and regroup with the main host, and casualty wise was fairly even if not even favored to the Ming in this battle, it was a rather obvious loss on their part as their confidence of ending the war quickly was shattered, and most of their casualties were among their elite units . They became much more cautious the rest of the first war and generally just stood outside of Seoul in stalemate.

4.Battle of Jiksan 9/7 1597 After the second war started, the Korean capital was once again under threat from Japanese forces, 2 major losses by the Koreans on the sea (due to their imprisonment of their legendary commander Yi Sun Shin) and the Chinese on land (a city they were defending was overwhelmed by a much larger force.) left the way to Seoul open again.

As the Ming army had mostly pulled out during the peace talk, and a significant portion of their army was already killed trying to defend Namwon earlier. The Ming general was in reality only left with a relatively small (but elite) army to try and defend the capital.

At this point both the Korean court and the commander of the Ming forces wanted to retreat, however the Ming administrator demanded them to defend Seoul. So the Ming commander's plan shifted, he generally attempted a similar plan of the Koreans in Chongju and Imjin River battles but this time managed to pull them off successfully.

Essentially, he properly utilized his cavalry's advantage, and managed to beat back the first wave of Japanese assault. the Japanese, ever cautious and not entirely sure of the Ming force's true strength, decided to withdraw for a full assault later, only to learn shortly after that the newly released Yi Sun Shin had crushed their navy again with just half a dozen ship. and thus their ability to attack Seoul was once again nulled.

[Wu Guo]

A great painting to gauge what the Northern army wore is a Wanli era painting 平番得胜图.

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By Wanli's era brigadine had largely replaced Mountain scale and Lamellar armor though in the earlier paintings it was still used as well as stone statues.

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Generals

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Musicians

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Bannermen

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Cavalry

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Northern Infantry

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I'll upload Southern infantry,unarmored infantry,weapons,shields/pavises,ships and siegecraft some other time.

[Wu Guo]

Southern infantry

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Unarmored infantry(could fit North or South)

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Southern Ming cavalry

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Melee weapons

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[Heatsaber]

Hello all,

I don't know if this is the proper place (but given that it's for historical research) I think it might be. I like to listen to podcasts, and there happens to be a podcast called Topics in Korean History, and they just covered the Imjin war in a series called "Black Water Dragon."

Here is a link: http://www.topicsinkoreanhistory.com...ater-dragon-i/

It also on the site has a "Black Water Dragon sourcebook," where the author (?) of the podcast lists all of his sources. It was actually a pretty fun listen, and pretty informative. The site also has maps and shows a lot of the weapons and tech and places talked about.

Hope it helps! Also, thanks for doing this. I am very excited for this (and already enjoy your Expanded mod.)

[uanime5]

I have a question about the Ming army. Why are some soldiers wearing red brigandine while others wear blue brigandine? Are the red ones soldiers and the blue ones are officers? Do elite divisions wear blue while regular ones wear red?

[Wu Guo]

I have a question about the Ming army. Why are some soldiers wearing red brigandine while others wear blue brigandine? Are the red ones soldiers and the blue ones are officers? Do elite divisions wear blue while regular ones wear red?

No,I don't think the color of the brigadine indicated anything there are green,red,yellow,blue and white armors.

[Wu Guo]

Bows

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Arrows and Quivers

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Firearms and Grenades

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Rocket propelled arrows and weapons

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[Gogunbanzui]

Here's my friends drawing depicting Ming Chinese Soldiers：

Attachment 306689Attachment 306697Attachment 306696Attachment 306695Attachment 306694Attachment 306693Attachment 306692Attachment 306691Attachment 306690Attachment 306698Attachment 306705Attachment 306706Attachment 306707
These are drawn by netizen named 不穩定的載體

[Gogunbanzui]

[Gogunbanzui]

[Wu Guo]

uanime5 would you need any information on the flags the Ming dynasty soldiers used?

[uanime5]

Okay can you tell me what flags were mainly used.

[Wu Guo]

From what I've seen flags were divided between the Northern and Southern armies and for parades/imperial processions and actual battle field use.

I'm still in the process of translating the flags so expect some more later.

From what I read a Ming dynasty Chi is 32cm,also for the 5 generals if someone can figure out the other generals or color scheme that would help immensely.

Descriptions for pictures displaying two flags is always the one on the right first.

Parade flags and miscellaneous

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Qing Dao: Double sided,Used while marching,placed in the front of the procession,pole is 8 chi,gourd is mounted on top,each side is 4 chi,inside is blue,frills are red


Jin Gu:Used next to musicians,Double sided,pole is 12 chi,feathers are mounted on top,each side is 6 chi,inside is yellow


Men Qi: Image of Flying Tiger,Placed next to gates and used while marching,Used in all 5 directions ie North,South,East,West and Center,pole is 12 chi,frills are yellow,each flag for each army is a different color,frills are yellow

Stationary Flags/Used in base camp

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Leopard Tail:Use to signal high securtiy area, Personal or civilians unless commanded by general to enter otherwise will be automatically executed,pole is 9 chi,spear tip mounted on top,the leopards tail is bound by silk,tail is 7 chi


5 standards of directions: colors are the same as the previous flags ie yellow for center,red for south,black for north,blue for east and white for west,designates a direction,used during nighttime hench the lamps on top,not used during battle and are stationary,pole is made out of high quality bamboo,2 lamps color depends on direction,golden gourd on top,12 chi long,the white part of the flag is the color of whatever direction while the black part is the same color except slightly brighter


Qing Long(Azure dragon of the East):Used to signify the east,pole is 15 chi long mounted with blue feathers,inside is blue

Bagua/constelattion flag:Not used while marching and set in the central army,pole is 16 chi,each side is 10 chi,inside is dark green,frills are white,incorrectly displayed in the Ospreys

Flags used during battle

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5 clouds of directions: Used to show where generals are,double sided,matches the color scheme of the directions,pole is 15 chi long,frills are same color scheme as the directions,vertical side 3 chi,horizontal side 4 chi,5 small tails colored same as directions.


5 guardians of directions:

Teng She(Flying snake):Use to signify the center,pole is 15 chi long,mounted with blue feathers,inside is yellow


Qing Long(Azure dragon of the East):Used to signify the east,pole is 15 chi long mounted with blue feathers,inside is blue
Zhu que(Vermillion bird of the South):Used to signify the south,pole is 15 chi long mounted with red feathers,inside is red


Bai Hu(White tiger of the West)Used to signify the west,pole is 15 chi long mounted with white feathers,inside is white
Xuan Wu(Black turtle of the North)Used to signify the north,pole is 15 chi long mounted with black feathers,inside is black


5 generals of directions:

Eastern General Wen:Used to signify the east,pole is 15 chi long,colored blue


Southern General Guan(Guan Yu):Used to signify the south,pole is 15 chi long,colored red
Central General Wang:Used to signify the center,pole is 15 chi long,colored yellow


Western General Ma:Used to signify the west,pole is 15 chi long,colored white
Northern General Zhao:used to signify the north,pole is 15 chi long,colored black


5 elements directions: Used during battle,pole is a long spear,each side is 5 chi,color depends on the direction,characters are black except for the black flag the character is white.
Jin(metal): White,West


Mu(wood):Blue,East
Shui(water):Black,North


Huo(fire):Red,South
Tu(earth):Yellow,Center


Bagua flags,golden gourd mounted on top,not sure what color the bagua symbols are:
Qian:South,top half above bagua is black,bottom half below bagua is white


Kan:West,top half above bagua is black,bottom half below bagua is black


Gen:Northwest,top half above bagua is blue,bottom half below bagua is black
Zhen:Northeast,top half above bagua is blue,bottom half below bagua is blue


Xun:Southwest,top half above bagua is blue,bottom half below bagua is red
Li:East,top half above bagua is red,bottom half below bagua is red


Kun:North,top half above bagua is white,bottom half below bagua is red
Dui:Southeast,top half above bagua is white,bottom half below bagua is white

[uanime5]

I have some questions about Ming units.

I've noticed that the robe/jacket's opening is always shown as starting over the right shoulder, going across the chest, then ending under the left arm. Is there a reason for this?

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Would it be a inaccurate if a unit had their robe's opening starting over the left shoulder, going across the chest, then ending under the right arm?

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Also do you know what this unit is? It seems to be a palace units but I'm not sure whether they were a palace guard or a soldier that fought on the battlefield.

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