Proper unit fight..

[AnthoniusII]

Is there even a slight chance for us to see Legioners and other similar units to use their javelins properly and NOT only in their offence???
I explain my self..
There are a large number of units similar to legioners that are heavy infantry but also equipted with javelins..
An example are the Hellenistic Royal Peltasts!
In the picture that follows there is a full Legion in a proper formation with addition of local mercenaries.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Select "view image" to see the picture in full extent.

This battle -with hundreds of Celts assaulting Legioners also reminds the battle Romans won over the rebelled Britons.
One detail in the game is missing though....
Those Legioners (Hastati and Principes) can not use their pilla while defending...
I still wonder which Historian counsil of CA told them that Romans used pilla ONLY in offence and never in defence because Roman historians that described battles are clear that Romans redused the charge of their enemies by throwing their pilla while they defended!
That was necessary because of the "unstopable" charge of Celtish warriors that seamed fearless!
So my question still exists...
Will CA "return" to its Legioners their abillity to use their pilla in defence and with Legioners also for other simila units?
I believe that despite my bad english (i am known for my bad english) , the question is simple...
The answer???????

[RedGuard]

sorry i was tired. the answer to your question is no. Should it be implemented? yes, it already has by mods, you just need to look

[ToonTotalWar]

In my mod the Romans use pilum first then revert to sword, there is no third option animation unfortunately. However there is a mod I have seen that uses the pilum as secondary weapon as well, looked weird as I always presumed that they wold switch to gladius after the pilum had been thrown?

[iceteazz]

_ If you let your legions " auto-fire" javelin, your army will run out of ammunition in ... seconds of battle, let's say each soldier has 3 javs, need 5 s to aim n throw, u got about 20s to release all your javs, then u have no range weapon before charging to enemy

_ Btw, if u want them to fire all javs to maximum their range weapon 's effectiveness, just select one or many legions at once, click atk, wait for jav throwed, then stop ( backspace ), repeat

[andrew881thebest]

they should have a single Pilum to throw only at close range, not many javelins. A pilum is not a normal javelin, it is heavy and made to penetrate shields.

[BigHairyMelon]

The only mod I have seen that lets you do this is Magnars overhaul mod. It lets you have fire at will on and a melee attack button so you can tell them to throw pilum or attack. So with the fire at will button on they will throw pilum for defense as well.

[AnthoniusII]

True each Legioner but also most of javelinmen could NOT carry more than 4 javelins/pilla.
But the player MUST have the choice when his troops wil use those "throwing" weapons!
Historians MENTION that the primary goal of pillum was to make the celtic shield useless...The majority of Celts had that shield as their primary defencive accessory and when it would become useless than the heavily armored Legioners would have a close combat advandage. Legions were NOT always in asault you know -the way we must play them in R2-!
Legions marched, launced pilla -with only frontal lines-, marched, changed lines, lauched and while the last pillum was lanched then and ONLY then legioners attacked with their swords!
But i half of the cases Legions found them selves in defence and it was defence that required the high train of legioners and not the attack.
Maniples had to be able to change their position under enourmous preasure after each pilla voley... Just like the finall defeat of Budica's followers in Britania.

In this case if we could use the picture i was posted in the OP the Principes maniples should be behind the Hastati gaps of their lines.
the Player should be ready when his Hastati would launch at least some of their pilla , to move them back and sent Prinicipes in the front to launch atleast one of their pilla and hold the line.
Then Hastati would line up with principes and Triarii would either defend the sides from cavalry attacks or interfear where the line of defence would broke.
Strangely Rome TW 1 could be used by players to "test" real Legion warfare!!

[DogSoldierSPQR]

This is a must.

Romans must use their Pila the way they actually used it. Throwing it on the charge just encourages Shogun 2 tactics instead of Roman tactics. Besides, you couldn't run with a scutum and throw with the pila at the same time and still be efficient at it, it'd be too much. There would've been that need to quickly plonk the shield down, throw it and then quickly get ready. When I say put the shield down, I don't mean flat. Just rest it on the floor standing up while holding it, then get it back up once you've launched the pila.

There's no current way to throw pila and still retain a formation so we need this.

[Sebastianus Somerus]

What mod are you using? And I agree with you

[Archimonday]

Yes there are plenty of mods that do this. Mine for instance, and a few others.

[Karnil Vark Khaitan]

I dont get the "they used it in real life!"

I get the "they did it in rome 1"

[TheCenturion24]

I dont get the "they used it in real life!"

I get the "they did it in rome 1"

I happen to be reading a book series written by a well to do historian and author that is set within the invasion of the Britons by the Romans. It blends fictional story telling in terms of characters and smaller events with his knowledge of military tactics and Roman history. It's actually really accurate; and guess what. The pilum is a central part of Roman warfare, and is ALWAYS thrown when the chance arises. That said, it's nothing like Rome II's mechanics. You obviously don't like Rome I. But you must understand that personal feelings have nothing to do with it.

Rome I men were required to charge the relative distance, STOP, ready and aim, THEN FIRE. That makes far more sense, both realistically and strategically, and it meant you had to plan your charges as a reckless charge before throwing meant your formation is thrown out of balance for those crucial moments. Rome I also had a working Fire at Will mode. Again, though; this isn't comparable to Warscape's Fire at Will. Warscape deals with fire cones and such; that doesn't work in an ancient setting.

The only thing Rome I could have had is an option to toggle throwing on charging, yet even then it gave Roman units a sense of uniqueness. You didn't just use them the same as, say, the Greek factions.

[paradamed]

sorry i was tired. the answer to your question is no. Should it be implemented? yes, it already has by mods, you just need to look

In my mod the Romans use pilum first then revert to sword, there is no third option animation unfortunately. However there is a mod I have seen that uses the pilum as secondary weapon as well, looked weird as I always presumed that they wold switch to gladius after the pilum had been thrown?

I read that AI cannot use the "fire at will" option. So it works for the player only which makes it feels uneven.

[prithupaul]

In my mod the Romans use pilum first then revert to sword, there is no third option animation unfortunately. However there is a mod I have seen that uses the pilum as secondary weapon as well, looked weird as I always presumed that they wold switch to gladius after the pilum had been thrown?

What happens if we create a new skirmisher unit built like legionaries (same animation, model and stats etc) and give it 2 ammo? If you switch to melee mode this pseudo-skirmisher will fight like a legionary. Have you done the same thing by any chance?

Personally I believe all the thousands of melee (and sometimes spear) infantry across the galaxy should not have this ability to carry javelins, but instead should be limited to those faction who historically used this as part of their military culture.

[Riekopo]

What unit card mod is that? It looks awesome.

[prithupaul]

What unit card mod is that? It looks awesome.

It totally does! Its from BullGod's Unit Icons. Its actually the only third party mod I am using right now.

[Karnil Vark Khaitan]

I happen to be reading a book series written by a well to do historian and author that is set within the invasion of the Britons by the Romans. It blends fictional story telling in terms of characters and smaller events with his knowledge of military tactics and Roman history. It's actually really accurate; and guess what. The pilum is a central part of Roman warfare, and is ALWAYS thrown when the chance arises. That said, it's nothing like Rome II's mechanics. You obviously don't like Rome I. But you must understand that personal feelings have nothing to do with it.

Rome I men were required to charge the relative distance, STOP, ready and aim, THEN FIRE. That makes far more sense, both realistically and strategically, and it meant you had to plan your charges as a reckless charge before throwing meant your formation is thrown out of balance for those crucial moments. Rome I also had a working Fire at Will mode. Again, though; this isn't comparable to Warscape's Fire at Will. Warscape deals with fire cones and such; that doesn't work in an ancient setting.

The only thing Rome I could have had is an option to toggle throwing on charging, yet even then it gave Roman units a sense of uniqueness. You didn't just use them the same as, say, the Greek factions.

I do like rome 1 I just cant play it anymore, to many small things annoy me!

BUT I do not read big books anymore so the concept "they did it in real life" alienates me.

But I like the way the Pilum worked in rome 1, and I really would like to see its return.

[iceteazz]

_ If im not wrong, i've read somewhere from osprey's books, i think it's title is "roman military tactics" or something like that. In that book, the author not only writes about legion formation, how roman groups up their army, march, battle line etc ... but also a small part how to use pilum in charging !

_ And i remember there is one picture about how roman charge : in close formation, when they want to charge, 1st rank goes run 1st, raise their pilum, aim, run for a distance, and throw their pilum ( like in olympic ), THEN they raise their scutum, use the bottom of the shield as a shock force, draw their short sword, and charge straight to enemy, while holding sword to be ready to stab after the impact.

_ While the 1st rank on charging, 2nd and 3rd rank repeat exactly like 1st rank ( sure, after a short break ) untill all groups get in combat. 4th rank will not throw their pilum, because in their turn, 1st rank are in very close melee range with enemy line, so they will not want to friendly fire ! That's it how Roman uses pilum when go offensive, to make enemy's shield useless, panic and some " hole " in enemy's line before they charge in.

_ In defensive, of course they will try to use pilum every time they can, but i don't think 1st line groups can do that efficiently, because they want to make formation close to defend, so the job is done from 2nd line, or " pro " javelinmen Btw, each soldier in heavy infantry group can hold only one pilum, because its heavy ( plus their heavy equipments) and holding more pilum will make them slow. One pilum is far from enough to do the job, pilum can be swap from rear to front line in order to fire repeatly in defensive stance. Only javelinmen hold more than 1 jav, it's their job to throw pilum/javelin as a range troops, not heavy infantry.

[prithupaul]

_ If im not wrong, i've read somewhere from osprey's books, i think it's title is "roman military tactics" or something like that. In that book, the author not only writes about legion formation, how roman groups up their army, march, battle line etc ... but also a small part how to use pilum in charging !

_ And i remember there is one picture about how roman charge : in close formation, when they want to charge, 1st rank goes run 1st, raise their pilum, aim, run for a distance, and throw their pilum ( like in olympic ), THEN they raise their scutum, use the bottom of the shield as a shock force, draw their short sword, and charge straight to enemy, while holding sword to be ready to stab after the impact.

_ While the 1st rank on charging, 2nd and 3rd rank repeat exactly like 1st rank ( sure, after a short break ) untill all groups get in combat. 4th rank will not throw their pilum, because in their turn, 1st rank are in very close melee range with enemy line, so they will not want to friendly fire ! That's it how Roman uses pilum when go offensive, to make enemy's shield useless, panic and some " hole " in enemy's line before they charge in.

_ In defensive, of course they will try to use pilum every time they can, but i don't think 1st line groups can do that efficiently, because they want to make formation close to defend, so the job is done from 2nd line, or " pro " javelinmen Btw, each soldier in heavy infantry group can hold only one pilum, because its heavy ( plus their heavy equipments) and holding more pilum will make them slow. One pilum is far from enough to do the job, pilum can be swap from rear to front line in order to fire repeatly in defensive stance. Only javelinmen hold more than 1 jav, it's their job to throw pilum/javelin as a range troops, not heavy infantry.

This is quite accurate. Legionaries should be able to form shieldwall as well as fire at will. I also read somewhere about legionaries using rotating battle lines to prevent exhaustion. However I doubt if warscape can ever allow for these sort of tactics.