SYMPOSIVM: Grown up members - grown up rules

[Tacticalwithdrawal]

Over the last few months there has been a common complaint heard in nearly all the forums. The issue is mainly to do with freedom of speech, but this is personified mostly in statements from older members of:

“I can’t post things today that I could post back in the old days”

and from newer members of

"Why can't I discuss controversial subjects without the mods stepping in?"

Recent examples, including flag burning and the Mohammed cartoons, have caused numerous debates and arguments within the Suggestus and staff. Nihil once stated something to the effect of

“This administration is attempting to shield the eyes of its members from the realities of the outside world, Hex is like an overprotective mother".

Garb also stated something relevant –

“In a perfect world we would not have to moderate these things, but, this isn’t a perfect world”.

The problem is that two years ago the community was smaller and in many respects more mature; the average age of our members has gone down as CA has targeted a larger audience and as a result we have had to adapt. Add to that the broadening of the cultural base of members and the result has been that there is no way we can allow total freedom of speech within the forums, a conclusion Hex has made with a heavy heart.

However, along come the reforms which, as well as changing the government of the site, have also focussed Hex's attention on the civitates. To put it bluntly we have been pleasantly surprised at the mature way in which the Civitates body has responded to the reforms, the level and standard of debate the reforms produced was uniformly very high.

Therefore we have taken the decision that since the Civitates have proved that they are truly worthy of their badges, they should be given far more freedom to debate and discuss than non-civitates.

We are therefore implementing the following:

• From this point onward the Symposium is moderated by Hex only.
• Questionable content is to be allowed, provided it is within an educational and informative context.
• You may aggressively debate with people in here, but the emphasis is on debate, flaming is still illegal
• No adult content, as always this is and always was a PG 13 site.

Please understand there will not be hard and detailed rules, moderating in here will be viewed as an art and that is why only the most experienced moderators will be active in here. We trust you to post intelligently and maturely, to be controversial and aggresive even, but to have enough sense not to cross the line.

For a month we will trial this so we can see how the Symposium reacts and takes form and during that month we will between us establish the code of conduct. After that time the future of this project and the Symposiums will be re- evaluated.

Thank you and may this be the first step in making us all feel at home again

[Belisarius]

The commercial success of the community caused an inevitable change and from about September 2004 this change started to take shape. To cut a very long story very short here we are now as one of the leading communities and total war fansites with a good reputation with both CA and the vast majority of modders, but as always we offer much more, we offer practically anything the community wishes, indeed, this community though not a democracy has been shaped by itself into what you see today. I agree with everything Tactical has said and hope that together we can mirror the success of the community with a utopia containing intellectual discussion and “out of the box” thinking.

[Rolanbek]

Truely a step Forward.

My thanks for you renewed trust, and i hope the you and all the staff will continue to add your argument to the threads here.

One thought though, does this mean that there will be no further amendments to the status quo until the month is complete?

R

[Belisarius]

Amendments in the Symposium? Unless you start posting porn and so on, it will stay as is forever I hope.

[Richard the Lionheart]

This can be promising and it will be interesting to see how it takes shape.

And of course, people need to keep the following points in mind:

We are therefore implementing the following:

• From this point onward the Symposium is moderated by Strategos and above only.
• Questionable content is to be allowed, provided it is within an educational and informative context.
• You may aggressively debate with people in here, but the emphasis is on debate, flaming is still illegal
• No adult content, as always this is and always was a PG 13 site.

[Shaun]

As far as I have seen, the symposium has always been a place where debate has been debate, and without flaming. I have never known a member to be suspended, or a thread in the symposium to even need to be moderated infact, before. The symposium, well to my knowledge, has always been a place of intelligent debate where there is no flaming, infact not even any heated debate. The symposium never does get as heated as the pitt' or ethos.

the average age of our members has gone down

Hey, I am only 16 but I am hardly an idiot who trolls, posts porn and other things, I am prefectly capable of posting intelligent debate, I think its not the age that matters, but the overall maturity of the members, and from what I have seen strategy games seem to have an overall higher maturity and intelligence of members.

From this point onward the Symposium is moderated by Strategos and above only.

Why? I think all mods should be allowed to mod here, but then again thats mu opinion. But with all honesty, the symposium rarely needs to be moderated, the only time I have seen it moderated is mobing things from the general symposium to the "lower house".

Questionable content is to be allowed, provided it is within an educational and informative context.

Fair enough, but is this allowed in the TD? The symposium should have the exact same rules as teh TD, just because its only civs who post here dosent mean that we should be allowed more privelages.

You may aggressively debate with people in here, but the emphasis is on debate, flaming is still illegal

To my knowledge there never was any flaming here, but these should have always been the rules, the TD should have the exact same rules as the symposium.

* No adult content, as always this is and always was a PG 13 site.

Again, this is also against the ToS, so civs especially should know not to post it.

“I can’t post things today that I could post back in the old days”


and from newer members of

"Why can't I discuss controversial subjects without the mods stepping in?"p

Huh? As far as I have seen, TWC allows very controversial things to be discussed. I only ever see the mods step in once it turns to flamming, spamming or off topic. Reallly, you can post something as controversial as you like, as long as it isnt against the ToS then you are fine.

“This administration is attempting to shield the eyes of its members from the realities of the outside world, Hex is like an overprotective mother".

Ever so slightly true. But it is a PG-13 site, end of story. I have seen some pretty "extreme" stuff from both sides in debates before, does being able to post really obscese stuff further debates in any way? I dont think so.

So overall, these new rules should have always been the rules - if they werent already, and civs should have the sense not to break obvious rules like these anyways.




PS- im a little drunk, if my post made no sense, ignore it.

[Halie Satanus]

PS- im a little drunk, if my post made no sense, ignore it.

Why would your height or intoxication make a difference??.

I think this a bad idea, let lose the dogs of war and you'll end up with piles of dog do everywhere.

i'm a big drunk.

[Fabolous]

Shaun, I could address the rest of your post, but really the issue all boils down to a couple of your statements that I will quote and respond to.

Fair enough, but is this allowed in the TD? The symposium should have the exact same rules as teh TD, just because its only civs who post here dosent mean that we should be allowed more privelages.

And why shouldn't it? Civitates are granted more privelages, as are patricians over civitates, than normal members already. Civitates are intend to be the class of the forum, posters who are able to see or read certain things that are against the ToS (such as the muhammad cartoons, atleast according to many) and not overreact, and therefore hex is staying they can be allowed here in the symposium, as long as the context is reasonable.

To my knowledge there never was any flaming here, but these should have always been the rules, the TD should have the exact same rules as the symposium.

Why? Civitates are intended to be more mature, so surely the rules can be more lenient than in the TD. The TD is of high quality, far more then similar sections of most forums, but still you see immature members in it, I don't think anyone denies that. The symposium is supposedly without those members, so why couldn't the rules be changed to respond to that higher maturity level?

[Nihil]

Nihil once stated something to the effect of

“This administration is attempting to shield the eyes of its members from the realities of the outside world, Hex is like an overprotective mother".

Are you sure that was me? Can't remember that... :hmmm:

Anyhoo, I applaud the spirit behind these reforms. When I first became a civitate, the symposium was a place that had a real atmosphere about it. It was completely unmoderated, because the triumvirate had a belief that there was something sacrosanct about it. This did not result in a cesspit of spam and inanity, far from it, although the debates were often fierce in the extreme...

Back then the symposium was an intimidating place where you feared to tread without careful consideration and you took your courage in your hand every time you posted. I rather miss that.

On the other hand, I'm not 100% sure that we have the kind of people here now who would be suited to the old style symposium. This is not a negative comment on anybody, it's just that nothing is static, the symposium included, and times change. However, I still like this idea, if only for old times sake.

[Manji]

Community size, in my perspective, is of no direct consequence, I know a small community that is constantly ravished by spam and in-fighting.

Community members, on the other hand, are of direct consequence; If, let's say, over 60% of a forum's community is composed of members with ages between 10 and 20 there is bound to be more agressive/inflamatory behaviour than a community composed of member with ages between 20 and 30 and so forth.

No matter how hard you try there will always be forum trolls, religious zealots, agressive atheists and political extremists, forums being but an expression of our world but boundless and allowing all to express their innermost demons.

Apart from that, good initiative, go for it.

[Belisarius]

Community size, in my perspective, is of no direct consequence, I know a small community that is constantly ravished by spam and in-fighting.

Complicated issue I wouldnt want to go into.

Community members, on the other hand, are of direct consequence; If, let's say, over 60% of a forum's community is composed of members with ages between 10 and 20 there is bound to be more agressive/inflamatory behaviour than a community composed of member with ages between 20 and 30 and so forth.

I agree, but the Civitates class should be mostly free of that as this is a merit based oligarchy. Now possibly there are one or two bad apples, but if there are, I'm sure the system will phase them out.

[Invoker]

WOOOOOO!!!! *fires pistols into the air* TIME FOR ANARCHY AND FLAMING!!!!

But seriously, I think this is a great direction the Symposium needs to go to, since it is, or at least is supposed to be, a step above the regular forums. While I don't like restrictions on forum posts beyond the obvious ones (no flaming, no adult material, talk in a civilized manner etc. etc.), I see it at least more necessary in the general forums than in the Symposium, where the people posting there are supposed to be the ones we don't have to worry about flaming, insulting others, discussing things in an inappropriate manner or the like. Of course, history has shown that there are many exceptions to this rule, though such posts seem to materialize outside the Symposium for the most part.

Now I all can hope for is for people to start posting their long, well though out posts in the Symposium and turn it back into the Lyceum it once was.

[Nihil]

Further on this subject, musing about it to Manji, I made the following observation: Back in the day, the imposing intellectual prowess of many of the symposium dwellers was more effective than any moderator presence could be in keeping discipline. The place didn't need any moderators, because people were petrified of disgracing themselves by saying something stupid in front of their peers!

Can such an atmosphere ever be recreated? Probably not.

[Belisarius]

Sure it can, with effort. The minds are here so - rez, Sim, Nihil, Sib, Tostig, Garb, Aristo, Manji, Giga, Tac, Mim and so on Make the effort and it will happen!



As for moderation, we arent moderating, just letting you know that we will allow things, get it? :hmmm:

[Garbarsardar]

As I said before in private what concerns me the most is the posting of civitates outside the Symposium, where one should lead by example.

That said this initiative needs time, and a change in our mindset (not yours nihil). It is a such commendable and for the rest, time will tell..

[gigagaia]

I'd like to throw my support behind these new Symposium rules.
With the introduction of the lower house (a welcome addition nevertheless), I fear that the true meaning of the Symposium has been lost. It has even been moved to the administrative forums group, which I'm not sure is entirely approrpiate. I have not actually been around to see the symposium in its supposed heyday. But I don't see any reason why it could not revive itself to that former glory.
Here at TWC, we place a lot of importance and interest on the unique political nature of the forums. With good reason as well, I think, because the politics are something that I would say are not so common on the internet. The curia, Prothalamos, elections and moderator feedback threads are aspects of the forum which we would be hard-pressed to find elsewhere. Alongside this, however, is the cultural side to TWC which many of us (including myself from time to time) perhaps forget about sometimes. TWC is not just a TW fansite anymore. Anyone who thinks so is just kidding themselves. I've been told by numerous people that what makes TWC so unique, is that people come for the TW and stay for the CC. This I can not only appreciate but also applaud. What makes TWC so interesting is that we have such a diverse range of content, members and interests.
What this all leads to, is what everything seems to lead back to these days, the reforms. When the civitates lost the franchise in the curia, people were heartbroken. But very little mention of the symposium was made. General_Lucius Belisarius Maximus Whateverhisnameisrightnow did make some mention of it (which I did quite appreciate), and I had some private disucssions with others, but I think that we lost a bit of focus during the reforms. Sure, voting is important and sure, having a say is exciting. But is not contributing to the cultural centre of TWC not important too? Are stimulating intellectual debates on controversial topics not bound by TOS freespeech rules not worth coming to TWC as well? The whole meaning of the civitates, never was "a vote" or "a say." The meaning of a civitates is a member who carries with him the weight of the forums. Civitates are not in their place because they have earned their right to vote, nor were they ever. Before the reforms, they simply got that right to vote largely as a benefit of the greater consequence, which was namely that they had proven themselves as a member who brought something new to debates and raised the level of discussions. They were members who were role models to the forums who made TWC what it was and is now; a community. Not a gaming community, but a diverse communtiy with a sense of unity and perhaps even a nasceant culture. Being a civitates was an honour unto itself and the voting and whatnot was merely a responsibiliy. Perhaps that is why the reforms were needed after all; the sense of responsibility was lost and with it the ability of the old curia to contribute to the development of the forums in a meaningful way. But pondering the meaning of the reforms is another discussion for another time, over a beer or two at the local pub.

What I am trying to say with all of this, is that we should embrace these new rules in the symposium and seek to use them to enrich the Symposium and TWC, not abuse them. The chance to let debates over pertinent issues rage, or controversial issues and art be exposed and discussed in a manner befitting the honour and intelligence of a civitates is something we should all eagerly look forward to. The Symposium's true meaning, after all, is not the lower house. It's heart is in the wonderful and vibrant potential it has as a place for members to raise the bar and push their intellects to the limit. If we can handle the new rules, it also proves that civitates are a cut above the rest and can handle delicate topics with grace and honour befitting their badge. Reinvigorating the non-political of the Symposium is something I am very excited about and hope that every othr civitate is too. It should really be the heart of TWC, a place where members at once fear the level yet still aspire to post in.

That's just my two cents on this. I hope that we truly think about what this means and reinvigorate the Symposium given these new rules. The lower house, however, shouldn't be abandoned, so please don't take this as me meaning that. What I am saying is that it should be an equal focus of the civitates as the Symposium proper is.

[The White Knight]

Thank you very much Tactical Withdrawal and Hex for your token (?) of confidence in our maturity ...

Hey, I am only 16 but I am hardly an idiot who trolls, posts porn and other things, I am prefectly capable of posting intelligent debate, I think its not the age that matters, but the overall maturity of the members, and from what I have seen strategy games seem to have an overall higher maturity and intelligence of members.

However you twist or turn it, generally speaking, age is a pretty reliable measure of maturity, certainly when below say ... age 20 or so. However, I read an article in EOS (Dutch sister-organisation of the scientific American - do I sound intellectual now? ) that adults are taking longer and longer to act like mature human beings, and that childish behaviour nowadays takes longer to disappear. I found this rather amusing. But the authors insisted this could have dire effects on the functioning of our society. Pity I don't have the article here or I could tell you more and - reflecting on our job as role-models - cite the source corectly and provide everyone with factual evidence of my claims. :wink:

[Silver Guard]

Well done all, I hope this will make the Symposium how it was back in Nihil's day (God that must make you feel old!) when I first joined the Symposium was empty, now with the inundation of Civitates it should become a better place, I am looking forward to further debate here.
Gig has a good point, and I'd like to add to it. With the new Modding forums for Atifex's and Opifex's, the Symposium for Civitates and the Lower house for all the ones who still want a say, I think we have the near-perfect solution. Though I don't doubt that this was said many times in the past, everything seems to be good.

Fair enough, but is this allowed in the TD? The symposium should have the exact same rules as teh TD, just because its only civs who post here dosent mean that we should be allowed more privelages

If you realy think Civ's should have no more privaleges, why are you a Civ? What would be the point? The Symposium is a reward for good conduct and good posting/modding in the rest of TWC, of course it should be different from the TD, else it'd be useless!

[Last_Crusader]

Back then the symposium was an intimidating place where you feared to tread without careful consideration and you took your courage in your hand every time you posted. I rather miss that.

And it's changed since I last came? Fiends!

Further on this subject, musing about it to Manji, I made the following observation: Back in the day, the imposing intellectual prowess of many of the symposium dwellers was more effective than any moderator presence could be in keeping discipline. The place didn't need any moderators, because people were petrified of disgracing themselves by saying something stupid in front of their peers!

Can such an atmosphere ever be recreated? Probably not.

Well, I think that if the 'Old Guard' are really returning (and given the effective death of you-know-where, this process can only accelerate), then that's probably easier than you'd think. Anyway, this is as good a place as any to make like a drama queen and announce my return. Possibly.

As for Mssr. Guard's comment about feeling old, well, quite so. But it's most definitely not a negative. Good gracious, no.

[Tom Paine]

..Last_Crusader returns to us at last? Can it really be true?